2 1/2 in. 16 bore black powder loads

[sharps4590]

I am the first to admit my computer skill are more than dismal. I searched.....or tried to....and couldn't find anything on BP loads for the 16 bore in 2 1/2 brass cases. Right now I'm mostly interested in shooting a round ball through my Cape gun but shot loads are on the near horizon.

I read in DGJ where Seyfried used 3 1/2 drams of Ffg in a 16 bore but what little I've found seems to indicate that might be just a little strong. I am open to any and all thoughts, suggestions and advice.

Thanks in advance!

[sharps4590]

Hmmm...I did a little RECHECKING before I started to load some round ball loads and I think I have a little dilemma. The 16 bore barrel on the old Cape gun evidently has either quite a taper or it's choked fairly tight. Just in front of the chamber the bore will swallow a .678 RB and my chamber cast including about 3 inches of the bore in front of the chamber mics .480-.482. At the muzzle the most accurate I can measure is .640-.642. I'm not a real big smoothbore shooter as I mostly cast for, reload for and shoot rifles....but .036 seems like a fairly big step to be squeezing down a .678 RB. Yes, no?

[geargnasher]

The only way I could figure to shoot round balls in 16-gauge was to use plastic hulls, smokeless powder, and wads with the ribs running the length of each petal in the wad. A .562" RB fits perfectly snug in the wad after it's pressed in the shell, and the ribs support the ball down the bore. When it passes the choke, the ribs swage slightly and let the ball pass with no deformation.

I'm not sure quite what to do to solve your dilemma, but I agree that even a dead-soft roundball might strain the choke a bit.

Gear

[sharps4590]

Me too gear. When I originally bought the Cape gun my intent was as the British mostly intended their Cape style guns, rifle on one side, RB on the other with a shot load as an alternative. I did load and shoot 2 different shot loads yesterday, 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz. over 2 1/2 and 2 3/4 drams respectively. They patterned quite well. When I went to clean the bore all I had was a 20 bore jag and with 2 T-sihrt patches the jag and patches would NOT go through the last 3-4 inches of the muzzle without a lot of "push". This old smooth bore is definitely choked. Another thing is that the barrel has straight, Henry style rifling which would probably add to the pressure of a RB load. I thought it was a bit early for choke but evidently not. I've read quite a bit about smoothbores but my actual experience is rather limited. If what I recall is true that tight a choke shouldn't give much accuracy with slugs/RB's anyway. I suppose I will relegate the smoothbore side of the Cape gun to shot loads.....and that's fine.....there's another gun on the horizon.....hehehe.

Thank you for your thoughts.

[Mk42gunner]

I don't know enough about loading shotguns to really offer advice; but 3 1/2 drams would be a hefty load in 2 3/4" cases. I would have to see it in writing a couple of places before I tried it in the shorter case.

With the amount of choke you measured, maybe it was setup for buckshot in the shotgun barrel?

Robert

[sharps4590]

Well...it was in writing in the "Double Gun Journal" in an article by Ross Seyfried who next to Sherman Bell probably has more experience working with these old guns than almost anyone in the country, that I know of. If I remember correctly the firearm was an Alexander Henry from about the same era as mine and his round ball load was 3 1/2 drams. Having said that, I agree with you that I don't believe I want to try it especially in a barrel with as much choke as mine. I believe it would be fine but I don't believe it would be accurate.

Robert, I don't know. I thought buckshot, as in 00, preferred a more open choke also....but I can't say that unequivocally either. The history of the rifle barrel in 10.5 X 47R is that it was a somewhat popular wildcat target cartridge back in the 1870's-1880's. From what I can learn it was based on the 43 Mauser, was shortened and necked down. I now wonder if the old gun was made for lighter game and fowl, ejspecially with that much choke.

Whatever the case is I have a good load for the rifle that is more than adequate for deer from 100 yards in and a fairly tightly patterning 16 bore. As it is it will make a good hunting gun....and I'm happy with that. Just a little disappointed I won't have that 470 gr. round ball for in close. I have a 16 bore drilling that is open cyl. and IC that will work well with the RB loads....and it's about 60 years newer and obviously nitro proofed. Food for more experimenting!

[Wayne Smith]

These combination or Cape guns were intended for shooting driven game. You had to be ready for whatever came along. Thus a shotgun barrel for the flying birds and the rabbits, etc, and the rifle for the larger quadrupeds. Choking can be dated, if I remember, to the 1840's both in America and in England. Not really surprising that yours is choked.

[sharps4590]

Wasn't that "jug" choking, Wayne? I didn't think what we consider conventional choke came along until the 1870's or 1880's? And that's from a dim memory so don't take it verbatim!!!!! This old piece isn't jug choked. Approximately the last 2-3 inches of the bore are choked.

I was aware of the driven game part but weren't many of them used and made for use in South Africa, thus the name? The intent being the big ol' round ball for up close and the rifle for beyond accurate round ball range? In Seyfrieds article from his gun the RB and bullet printed to the same sighting. Or was that done only for firearms destined for the Cape and not so for those marketed in Europe? So many questions......a curious mind is both a blessing and a curse.

[Mk42gunner]

Well...it was in writing in the "Double Gun Journal" in an article by Ross Seyfried who next to Sherman Bell probably has more experience working with these old guns than almost anyone in the country, that I know of. If I remember correctly the firearm was an Alexander Henry from about the same era as mine and his round ball load was 3 1/2 drams. Having said that, I agree with you that I don't believe I want to try it especially in a barrel with as much choke as mine. I believe it would be fine but I don't believe it would be accurate.

Robert, I don't know. I thought buckshot, as in 00, preferred a more open choke also....but I can't say that unequivocally either. The history of the rifle barrel in 10.5 X 47R is that it was a somewhat popular wildcat target cartridge back in the 1870's-1880's. From what I can learn it was based on the 43 Mauser, was shortened and necked down. I now wonder if the old gun was made for lighter game and fowl, ejspecially with that much choke.

Whatever the case is I have a good load for the rifle that is more than adequate for deer from 100 yards in and a fairly tightly patterning 16 bore. As it is it will make a good hunting gun....and I'm happy with that. Just a little disappointed I won't have that 470 gr. round ball for in close. I have a 16 bore drilling that is open cyl. and IC that will work well with the RB loads....and it's about 60 years newer and obviously nitro proofed. Food for more experimenting!

I agree that Ross Seyfied has written some pretty good advice. I always liked reading his articles. And 3 1/2 drams behind a RB will probably act differently than behind 1 1/4 or 1 1/8 oz of shot.

I have read of using a slightly smaller ball; nestled into a donut shaped felt wad, created by using say a 3/8" hole punch in the center of the felt wad. How that idea would work in your Cape Gun, I have no idea.

A 16 was probably loaded with either single 0 or No 1 buck, not 00.

Have fun and be safe,

Robert

[sharps4590]

I think Seyfried does a bang up job working with these old firearms. He's certainly convinced me he knows what he's doing.

I don't know about nestling a RB in the cushion wad. I believe it would help in keeping the ball centered in the hull but if they're cast of straight lead and fired over black powder I believe it would still obturate to fill the bore at .680 then hit the choke which is .640-.642. I thought of using a smaller RB but with obturation, once the trigger is pulled the same condition exists.

From the help you have all offered, comments on other web sites and a little more research on my own I've convinced myself at least that this is a shot barrel and not for round ball. I'll work with the shot loads until I achieve satisfactory patterns....and they're pretty close as it is...and call it good.

Thanks to all of you!

Vic

[skeettx]

I would suggest you use a shot dipper set at 1 ounce and use FF blackpowder. Also use a paper hull as it is thicker and will support a smaller diameter ball. Of course use the proper nitro card and fiber cushion and roll crimp for the ball or just glue in with elmers glue and leave it uncrimped.

http://circlefly.com/html/products.html

http://circlefly.com/html/wad_sizing_chart.html

[Wayne Smith]

I have no idea if they were made for South Africa, I'm sure a bunch went there initially. I think when they got there they realized the 10.5x47R was less than adequate! Were they a poor man's dreilling? I really don't know the development of the gun styles, but I do know that the Germans got to South Africa before the Brits. I'm sure that these guns got there. I'd bet that the design was in place well before that opportunity presented itself.

[skeettx]

Paper hulls

http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13079

[geargnasher]

Keep in mind a single RB is only going to be 1/2 to 5/8 ounce in that gun, so the 3-1/2 dram RB load may be quite appropriate.

Gear

[sharps4590]

Uhhh...the round ball mold I have, which mics .678 and is .002 under bore diameter is 470 grains. 33 grains more than an ounce. 1/2 -5/8 oz is .410 size, not 16 bore.

Wayne, no doubt the 10.5 X 47R is probably more than inadequate for South Africa!! If it ever got there I bet they did stop using it pretty quick, except for the smallest of game. I don't know when the cape gun first saw the light of day either but there are muzzleloading examples extant. I agree it's been around a while.

I have the brass hulls and they are working fine thanks to some advice given here, other web sites, e-mail and PM's. My load ended up at 1 1/8 oz. of #6 shot and 2 3/4 drams of Scheutzen Ffg. Patterns good, recoil is more than comfortable and hulls fall from the chamber when the barrels are tilted up. I don't know what else I could ask for. I can easily drop to 2 1/2 drams of the same powder, increase my wad column height and go to a 1 oz. load if I wish.

[skeettx]

Good news
Hope the round ball load works out for you
Mike

[sharps4590]

I'm not going to try the RB Mike. Many have made comments and statements, and some have offered past articles that I've printed out and read, that convinced me of what I suspected but didn't want to admit...or wanted to find a way around. That the choke constriction is too much and that the old gun was probably never intended for round balls. Thanks anyway for the good wishes. Maybe the next ol' Cape gun will be so intended.