Ask the Experts

[Beekeeper]

Senerio:
2 (two) identical Isralli Mausers. .308 calober
300 lan
308-309 groove
Iron sights ( military)
Both bores are Dark but good, some light pitting but nothing excessive!

Both shoot in a 2 inch square ( steel target) at100 yards with J word bullets.
Clean to a fair thee well and shoot cast, can't even hit target.
Have tried Red dot, 4895 4198 unique,3031 powders in various loads.
Boolit sizes ranging from .308 to .314.
150 grain to 200 grain.
with and without filler

All shots are off target at 100, 200 yards no matter what sight picture is used.

Now I know I have bad eyes (even with cataract surgery) but not that bad!!
Need ideas on what to try.
Have one at gunsmith for drill and tap for scope but other is still mil sights for now.
Do not have major problems with other mil sight rifles , Why this one??


beekeeper

[44man]

Boolit hardness and a velocity match to twist. Try to get close to the jacketed loads. You will not shoot cast much slower then your jacketed loads.
The misconception is cast needs lighter loads.
My cast revolver loads are FASTER then jacketed.

[Larry Gibson]

Milsurp bores with dark bores will shoot cast well if the ifling is good (strong), the pitting not bad and the muzzle not warn. The fact that the rifle shoots into a 2" square with jacketed says the accuracy potential is also there with cast. I'm not sure of the Isreli twist in those barrels but best accuracy with other Isreli milsurp M98s in 7.62 has been in the 1700 - 1950 fps range indicating 9 1/2 or 10" twists.

What loads with the 200 gr bullets using 4895 were you using?
What specific mould?
GC's?
What lube?
What filler?

Larry Gibson

[popper]

I assume GC'd, a hard alloy and touching the lands? .310-.311 should be good, H4895 works well for my 308. 10:1 twist. Try 50 yds and see where it goes, POI is different for cast, usually up and left.

[Beekeeper]

All boolits are Gas Checked.
Using Bens Red Lube, ( has worked well in all other rifles)
Rifling is 1-14 right hand twist
IMR 4198
Lyman 311466 @ 150 gr my alloy
21.8 grain with tuft of dacron

IMR 4895
Lee c309-160-R @ 159 grains my alloy
26.1 grains

Lee C309-160-R @ 159 grains my alloy
30 grains

IMR 4895
Lyman 314299 @ 200 gr my alloy
28 grains

Unique
Lee c309-160-R @ 160 Grains
14.5 grains

IMR 3031
Lee C309-160-R at 160 grains
28 grains
Lyman 314299 @ 200 grains
28 Grains and a 1/2 oz tuft of dacron

IMR 4198
Lyman311466 @ 150 grains
21.8 grains and 1/2 grain tuft of dacron.

All data from my personal reload book.


beekeeper

[dale2242]

Move the target in to 25 yds and use a BIG target to get some idea where it is shooting. It is hard to tell what is going on if you can`t hit the target.......dale

[Larry Gibson]

Rifling is 1-14 right hand twist

That is a Palma twist and very slow for any cast bullet over 175 gr unles driven fast. I've never heard of a milsurp with that slow of a twist in 7.62. Most have 10 or 12" twist barrels. If truely a 14" twist then we can work around the 311466 as that is my favorite load for my own 14" twist Palma Rifle?

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Unique
Lee c309-160-R @ 160 Grains
14.5 grains


If it won't shoot with that load it won't shoot. Get to 25 yards on paper and see what it's doing.

Gear

[leftiye]

Try a loob containing Carnauba. When cleaned you had a rougher bore than before cleaning. Carnauba helps fill the potholes in rough bores (microscopically). Pre loob(with LLA or oil) your clean bore before shooting again. Don't over do it.

[44man]

I have to agree with Larry.
I would start to step up the loads. There is not enough spin with the slow twist.

[Bret4207]

How about the muzzle? Any chance it's wallowed out? Dies it have a flash hider that mught be interfering?

[44man]

How about the muzzle? Any chance it's wallowed out? Dies it have a flash hider that mught be interfering?
Bret, what scares me is that some of those powder loads are only half the starting loads for the boolit weights.
4198 can have massive pressure excursions. Other slow powders have been reduced to where safety issues are a concern.

[45 2.1]

Bret, what scares me is that some of those powder loads are only half the starting loads for the boolit weights.
You should probably be looking at cast boolit data.

4198 can have massive pressure excursions. Other slow powders have been reduced to where safety issues are a concern.
As for the 4198 data, the listed load IS the starting load for that boolit.

Beekeeper, I would confirm published cast boolit loading data with what you get here. You may actually try sizing to 0.311" or 0.312" and try the 314299 you have with Unique.

[44man]

Doesn't matter, too much reduction is a setup for SEE events. Boolit weight is still boolit weight and case size is still case size.

[Beekeeper]

Larry,
I did not beleive the twist either so I did the check 3 times and it always came out the same.
Using the 311466 boolit ( which I like a lot in other rifles) what do you suggest for a start and max load?

44man,
I am aware of the SEE thing and take every precaution possible not to have one ( ergo: the filler in most of my loads)
Have never had or seen one and in truth do not want to.


beekeeper

[44man]

Larry,
I did not beleive the twist either so I did the check 3 times and it always came out the same.
Using the 311466 boolit ( which I like a lot in other rifles) what do you suggest for a start and max load?

44man,
I am aware of the SEE thing and take every precaution possible not to have one ( ergo: the filler in most of my loads)
Have never had or seen one and in truth do not want to.


beekeeper
I have had one and so did my friend. Luckily no gun damage. Filler will help.
I do fear under charges of slow powders.
Cast does not mean you can do other things. There are many cases where I do not trust loading info either.

[Bret4207]

Since when was 4198 a SLOW powder?

[pdawg_shooter]

Short answer...Paper Patch! Size .3015, wrap with 16# paper, lube and load like jacketed.

[Beekeeper]

Larry,
Never heard of a Palma Rifle until you mentioned it.
All I know about the 2 rifles I have is.
Sold by Century International Arms as Chech Mausers rebarreled by the Isralli military.
Receivers are scrubbed of all crests and "Very" heavely stamped 7.62
Below that is the date 1942.
Other than serial numbers there are no other markings.
Both have Military sights gradusted in yards with 100 yards the lowest.
The barrels are 24 inches long and cut to a military contour.
Altho dark with some pitting the barrels have very strong rifling and little or no belling at the muzzle.
I head spaced them both with go/no go guages and they are well within specs ( see Mooseman I do own and use Gages, well sometimes anyway)
When I got them they were in military form and were in very bad condition. A friend suggested they were Kabutz buried rifles.
Wood was crumbly at best and could not be saved. All metal was junk to say the best and was scrapped and new wood made.
One I made as a Manlicher stock and the other as a convential rifle
I could find no other info on them on the web at the time or since.


beekeeper

[Beekeeper]

Pdawg,
That was one idea that I had but wanted to exaust all ideas on GG boolits first.


beekeeper

[W.R.Buchanan]

A cure for the dark bores might be charging up some of your boolits with lapping compound and fire lapping the bores, or if you have the ability pour a lead lap and do it by hand. That would eliminate that issue.

At least you could see what you're working with.

Randy

[44man]

Since when was 4198 a SLOW powder?
It is not but I have seen excursions in a few calibers where velocity went from 1550 fps to 1800 fps and stuck brass. Not a powder to just guess at loads.
Even 4759 has failed to ignite when too little powder is used.
Book starting loads to mid range of 296 have failed to ignite with the wrong primer. Mid range loads of 4831 in the Swede have had SEE events.
3031 has poured unburned powder from the muzzle while Varget all burned.
We walk a thin line.
I have seen these things, I report, end of story. Nothing against anyone, just do not scare me. The biggest fear I have is for one of you to get hurt.

[Beekeeper]

Wow ,
maybe I should sell all of my guns and reloading stuff( tounge in cheek kidding)
44Man,
I take every precaution I can when reloading and shooting.
Some at the range say I am anal about it but at 75 I am still alive.
I do not take unnecessary chances period.

maybe that is why I ask so many dumb questions here on the forum (OH wait there are no dumb questions are there).
I have had trouble with these rifles from the start and that is why I am looking for answers.

Unlike some here I spent many years in the military with little or no spare money after paying rent, buying gas for the car and food for the family so most of the guns I play with started out as what you would call junk ( I did too).
I have a reasonably good collection of old "Junk" and over the years have made them into good shooters.
My 7 MM Mauser has been through 3 barrels and 3 stosks and still shoots great.
Not bad for a $10 piece of junk 50 years ago.

I will continue to work with my old "Junk" and keep shooting better than a lot of the so called Black rifles.

I am proud of my old "Junk" and shoot and display it proudly. It is kinda like me Old ,Decrepit, but still slugging along.


beekeeper

[44man]

Wow ,
maybe I should sell all of my guns and reloading stuff( tounge in cheek kidding)
44Man,
I take every precaution I can when reloading and shooting.
Some at the range say I am anal about it but at 75 I am still alive.
I do not take unnecessary chances period.

maybe that is why I ask so many dumb questions here on the forum (OH wait there are no dumb questions are there).
I have had trouble with these rifles from the start and that is why I am looking for answers.

Unlike some here I spent many years in the military with little or no spare money after paying rent, buying gas for the car and food for the family so most of the guns I play with started out as what you would call junk ( I did too).
I have a reasonably good collection of old "Junk" and over the years have made them into good shooters.
My 7 MM Mauser has been through 3 barrels and 3 stosks and still shoots great.
Not bad for a $10 piece of junk 50 years ago.

I will continue to work with my old "Junk" and keep shooting better than a lot of the so called Black rifles.

I am proud of my old "Junk" and shoot and display it proudly. It is kinda like me Old ,Decrepit, but still slugging along.


beekeeper
No, just take to heart that you are important.
Your guns are not junk either. Most are better then what is made today, be proud of them.
I am with you, you sound like a great person, just don't worry me.
How I wish we lived close together.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
I did not beleive the twist either so I did the check 3 times and it always came out the same.
Using the 311466 boolit ( which I like a lot in other rifles) what do you suggest for a start and max load?

beekeeper


Ok, I've not heard of a 14" twist milsurp 7.62 barrel but we live and learn, eh. A Palma rifle is a specialized target rifle used for Palma matches at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. Originally it was fired with service rifles using NATO sec loads with a max of 155 gr bullets. As the rules changed to allow modified and target type rifles the Ammo requirement remained the same. It was found that a 13 - 14" twist gave the best accuracy with a 155 or less gr bullet.

I suggest the 28 gr 4895 with a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler. Work up in 1 gr increments to 36 gr. I've found accuracy to be best with that bullet using 4895 to be in the 2300 - 2400 fps range. You definately want to use a softer lube such as Javelina so it spins off evenly. Also keep the GC at the bottom of the case neck and with in it if at all possible.

You might also try a slower powder without a filler. I mostly use AA 4350 with that bullet in my Palma 14" twist rifle. Strt at 50 gr and work up to 58-59 gr which will be 100+% loading density.

I size at .311 BTW.

Larry Gibson

[Beekeeper]

Larry,
Thank you for the info.
Will give it a try and let you know the outcome.


beekeeper

[Beekeeper]

Larry had both checked by a gunsmith in case I was doing something wrong.
He is a Palma shooter and was amazed the barrels actually have a 1 in 14 twist.
Said he would do some checking to see if he could find out why they are 1 in 14.
Told me barrels are not original and seems to think my senerio is correct that they bought any barrel they could find , cut them to the military profile so they would fit the original stock without any changes.

Shot the best one today (it is scoped) and with my old bad eyes , your suggested load , used 30 gr IMR 4895 , and help from a friend (spotting) was able to sight in and go to 600 yards with ease.

Thanks for the load.


beekeeper