You Enfield drivers are right

[Jack Stanley]

I had the number four MkII out this morning , was gonna try a few with the barrel cold to see how they centered on the target . Had the same bag hold , sight picture , trigger squeeze and everything I thought would help to get good shots downrange . First two shots were touching at the top of the black on a B-3 target thirty-five yards out , the next three shots were all over the black :(

So I figured I may as well just toss the next ten rounds downrange and loaded the magazine to capacity . I moved myself to twenty-seven yards and put the sling on the bicep , went to prone and started blasting . The ten shot group was about three-quarters of an inch high and an inch and a quarter wide :roll: Yeah Okay...... let's see what it does next time I'm out :coffeecom

Jack

[Multigunner]

If you take the fore end off for any reason it usually requires several rounds for the action body to settle back in.

When using any sort of rest I don't rest the fore end on the rest. I instead used the bag or whatever as a brace for my wrist and hold the fore end with the hand, the wood should touch nothing but your hand.

Slip on recoil pads increase group size for me, so I don't use one anymore. I found that a folded washcloth under the shirt at the shoulder serves as well and doesn't affect accuracy.

[Jack Stanley]

I've found for me it's usually best to hold on to the rifle front and back keeping the forend off the bags . It's just never worked letting the front end recoil wherever it wants to .

I loaded a few more rounds so maybe I'll go out tomorrow and see how it does .

Jack

[303Guy]

When I used a front rest it was made to simulate the human hand. I've mention before that my two-groove was sensitive to fore-end grip then I bedded the action the y way I do it and the POI shifted but first impression is that it's not so sensitive to hold. I could be completely wrong - more testing is needed. It never had a problem with off-hand shooting, only shooting from a rest with the hand under the fore-end.

I've always fee floated my Lee Enfield's and fully bedded the action and bottom strap so as to have pressure on the full action and Knox form. I can't say that's better or worse than the standard way but it seems to work for me.

[Jack Stanley]

I have noticed that just about any number one MkIII isn't as fussy as this Number four .

Jack

[Multigunner]

When I used a front rest it was made to simulate the human hand. I've mention before that my two-groove was sensitive to fore-end grip then I bedded the action the y way I do it and the POI shifted but first impression is that it's not so sensitive to hold. I could be completely wrong - more testing is needed. It never had a problem with off-hand shooting, only shooting from a rest with the hand under the fore-end.

.
I actually get smaller more consistent groups when firing from the sitting position, with elbows resting on the inside of the knee.
ankles crossed if on flat level ground
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=rifle+firing+sitting+position&view=detail&id=5127CE412FA4A5CE0D35551A80E1D864E9F39B11&first=1
or feet out if sitting on padding or anything higher than the ground at my feet
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=rifle+firing+sitting+position&view=detail&id=B3832148A676D970E0C5B919E24E0D87795E0FF3

[303Guy]

Interesting. I don't recall trying those although I probably have. I used to be quite a master with off-hand shooting but times change and skills fade. In my parts the ground is often wet and soggy (as in muddy), so some 'modifications' might be in order. Also, a raised rifle sometimes scares off the quarry while going down into a shooting position might not.

[Multigunner]

Interesting. I don't recall trying those although I probably have. I used to be quite a master with off-hand shooting but times change and skills fade. In my parts the ground is often wet and soggy (as in muddy), so some 'modifications' might be in order. Also, a raised rifle sometimes scares off the quarry while going down into a shooting position might not.

I hadn't given it much thought till now, but I do remember that the reason I started using the sitting position was because when shooting from a rest, either seated at a bench or when resting the fore end on padding while aiming over the top or hood of a vehicle, there was significantly more vertical dispersion. I figured at the time it was a rebound effect of some sort.
The more flexible the hold, firm yet not having unequal resistence to vibration or recoil, the better the Enfield seems to group.

I've seen posted images of targets from a fresh from the mummy wrap No.4 shot from a machine rest with the best groups far larger than the worst groups I ever fired without a rest.

I'm putting a new fore end on my No.4, and will give free floating a try before trying out other bedding point options.

[303Guy]

Perhaps the trick to try would be mounting the rifle in the machine rest by the butt piece only and see what happens. I do believe the action body firmly bedded including the Knox form in conjunction with free floating is worth considering. The Lee Enfield action is quite flexy and gets subjected to quite a bit of stresses being rear locking and all. One day I'll bench shoot my two-groove and see what it really can do. (I'll only tell you folks the results if it shoots well!)[smilie=l:

[Four Fingers of Death]

Most of my offhand shoting in the field is a result of me not wanting to get a wet bum. Usually once I get a load for the gun worked out, I practice from the offhand. I figure that if you can shoot from offhand, the rest will work fine. The hand supporting the forend works with pretty much all rifles that aren't the standard bolt action sporting or target rifle type of arm. When working off the bench working up loads, the hand supporting the forend seems to give me same point of impact as field positions.

The No4 you are talking about is showing great promise! Well done. Keep us posted.

[PAT303]

I hadn't given it much thought till now, but I do remember that the reason I started using the sitting position was because when shooting from a rest, either seated at a bench or when resting the fore end on padding while aiming over the top or hood of a vehicle, there was significantly more vertical dispersion. I figured at the time it was a rebound effect of some sort.
The more flexible the hold, firm yet not having unequal resistence to vibration or recoil, the better the Enfield seems to group.

I've seen posted images of targets from a fresh from the mummy wrap No.4 shot from a machine rest with the best groups far larger than the worst groups I ever fired without a rest.

I'm putting a new fore end on my No.4, and will give free floating a try before trying out other bedding point options.

I fore end floated both my H barrel MK111 and No4 and both shot like ****,make a dummy pressure point with card wads and move fore/aft until you find the sweet spot. Pat

[Jack Stanley]

When I'm testing loads , I always start out on the bags to eliminated as many of my mistakes as possible . I don't really try bench techniques , just use the bench and bags to steady my aim . Once the load proves it's worth I'm glad to shoot standing up , I don't like a wet bum either and the ground does get wet here in the land of falling waters . :smile:

Jack

[bruce drake]

I fore end floated both my H barrel MK111 and No4 and both shot like ****,make a dummy pressure point with card wads and move fore/aft until you find the sweet spot. Pat

I did the same based off my experience with Mauser barrels. Took a nice shooter and made it shoot like poo. I then learned about pressure bedding and have sworn off free-floating enfields ever since.

Bruce

[Four Fingers of Death]

Took a nice shooter and made it shoot like poo. I then learned about pressure bedding and have sworn off free-floating enfields ever since. Bruce

Don't you just hate that?? :D

[Multigunner]

I fore end floated both my H barrel MK111 and No4 and both shot like ****,make a dummy pressure point with card wads and move fore/aft until you find the sweet spot. Pat

Reason I will try free floating first is to see if it would prevent vertical stringing when the fore end is resting on a hard or unyielding surface, like resting the fore end on a log) rather than holding the fore end by hand as I normally do.

Due to a medical condition and badly set fore arm bones from an old injury I sometimes have difficulty grasping a fore end properly. Often best I can do is lay the fore end in V of thumb and fore finger with palm facing out wards.
When shooting off hand I hold the rifle by the magazine, the slanted floor of the magazine helps since thats about the limit of movement for my left wrist without distracting discomfort.
If I use a normal grip on the fore end pressure on nerves from lumps in the bones makes the whole hand cramp up, I have to straighten that hand and wrist out using the other hand to take pressure off the radial nerve.

For many years I could only hold the rifle in a modified Palma match hold, the Lee Enfield magazine makes this easier, and run a strap over one shoulder and under the other (similar to a pistol lanyard) with a loop around the wrist to take some of the weight off. A wrist brace that limits rotation to avoid pressure on the nerves also helps.
The left arm is working fairly well in recent years, though the condition is a recurring one. Wrist rotation is limited to less than half of normal without causing cramps and locking up of the wrist.

I've considered adding a quick detachable palm rest for off hand use.

[Four Fingers of Death]

UNless you are competing in a match that forbids it, you sound like you are ready for a bog pod! Don't free float it until you have tried everything else. These Enfields are the only one on th eparade ground in step and don't usually respond to it. A sporterised stock may be different.

[bruce drake]

I free floated a No4 Mk1 that was shooting less than 3 MOA on a regular basis. Biggest regret I had concerning that rifle as it went to spray the bullets all over 100 yard target face. After I bought a replacement foreend after six months of trying to get it to shoot to where it was supposed to be. It immediately went back to sub 3MOA with the new foreend.

I do think you could easily add a modified palm rest on that rifle which could improve your forehand grip issues while retaining the Enfield's proper bedding.

Bruce

[303Guy]

That's curious, Bruce. Is free floating all you did to it? The action body does need to be firmly bedded along its full length and the bottom strap needs to be under spring load right from the little lug things that should be pressing back against the stock, to the front under the screw. My 25-303 shot sub MOA (1 inch groups at 190yds) with only a rag clamped under the Knox form. I should do some experimenting. I can't help wondering what's going on.

[bruce drake]

I routed the entire barrel channel out and cut the stock back about 6 inches as well and removed the upper handguards also.

After I put it back into proper Tommy Kit (not GI Issue obviously) it started shooting as well as it did before my mad-whackery.

Bruce

[Multigunner]

The action body does need to be firmly bedded along its full length

Some bedding instructions for the No.4 (T) say to bed the action body fore and aft for about 1 1/2" leaving no contact in the center. This is how I bedded my action body and I've had great results with it. At present the barrel makes contact only at a point aprox mid way between receiver ring and lower band, a narrow strip of hardwood glued in to provide some upward pressure, and at the knox form/reinforce where theres a narrowed trapezoid shaped contact point. Receiver ring makes even contact at the bottom for about one third of the inletting, the sides left free of contact.
Rear of fore arm is bedded closely to the face of the butt socket.

PS
I have run across a Lithgow that just would not seat in the foreamr properly when the king screw was tightened.
I finally figured out that it was due to a twist in the magazine well rails. Once I'd straightened the rails the action and barrel settled in perfectly.
So bent triggerguards are something to look out for if you have bedding difficulties.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Some bedding instructions for the No.4 (T) say to bed the action body fore and aft for about 1 1/2" leaving no contact in the center. This is how I bedded my action body and I've had great results with it. At present the barrel makes contact only at a point aprox mid way between receiver ring and lower band, a narrow strip of hardwood glued in to provide some upward pressure, and at the knox form/reinforce where theres a narrowed trapezoid shaped contact point. Receiver ring makes even contact at the bottom for about one third of the inletting, the sides left free of contact.
Rear of fore arm is bedded closely to the face of the butt socket.

PS
I have run across a Lithgow that just would not seat in the foreamr properly when the king screw was tightened.
I finally figured out that it was due to a twist in the magazine well rails. Once I'd straightened the rails the action and barrel settled in perfectly.
So bent triggerguards are something to look out for if you have bedding difficulties.

I was led to believe that bending the trigger rails on some Lee Enfields changed the weight of the trigger. Someone may have tried that previously.

[303Guy]

Some bedding instructions for the No.4 (T) say to bed the action body fore and aft for about 1 1/2" leaving no contact in the centerI did bed my 25-303 with the action centre free of contact and it shot great with a floating fore-end which would confirm that. My two-groove I only bedded the receiver ring and Knox form so once again that would confirm that. I stand corrected. That doesn't mean full bedding will do any harm - it's certainly more effort. I'll be two point bedding my Lee Enfield's in future! The bottom strap does need to apply the correct pressure, however it is achieved. It does come curved and does straighten out when the king screw is tightened.

[Multigunner]

I was led to believe that bending the trigger rails on some Lee Enfields changed the weight of the trigger. Someone may have tried that previously.

On that Lithgow the rails were more twisted than bent, which meant that the king screw when all the way home would be canted unless screwed into the receiver ring lump. When screwed down tight the cant plus the unequal side and up and down pressure pushed the fore end to one side at an angle. When the barreled action body lay in the fore end without the king screw tightened it lay perfectly straight, when tightened the barrel rode hard against one side of the barrel channel.

A member of another board described the same difficultly with his wire wrapped grenade launching EY rifle. Unfortunately it did not register with my memory at the time or I could have told him the probable cause and cure.
Later on this got me to thinking that this sort of bend and twist of the triggerguard rails might have been caused by the heavy recoil forces when launching grenades with the butt dug into the ground.
The Lithgow had a replacement fore end and badly eroded throat (worst erosion I've ever seen) that may have been due to the heat of the flaked cordite charge of rifle grenade blanks. The action was also a bit more battered than most. This suggests to me that the rifle had been subjected to quite a bit of abuse, with grenade launching most likely. I don't know if they also used these as line throwing rifles, the British Navy prefered the P-14 or M1917 for line throwing.

[303Guy]

I was led to believe that bending the trigger rails on some Lee Enfields changed the weight of the trigger.I'm not so sure. I'd suggest that isn't possible. (I could be wrong, mind you).

Bending or twisting the the bottom strap would take quite some doing and grenade launching like that must have put serious loads on the action. I wonder whether there is another possible explanation? My camera has died otherwise I would post a photo of one of my guns locking lug bearing face where the breakdown of the hardened surface is visible. This is the one with peening burs.

[Multigunner]

I'm not so sure. I'd suggest that isn't possible. (I could be wrong, mind you).

Bending or twisting the the bottom strap would take quite some doing and grenade launching like that must have put serious loads on the action. I wonder whether there is another possible explanation? My camera has died otherwise I would post a photo of one of my guns locking lug bearing face where the breakdown of the hardened surface is visible. This is the one with peening burs.

I can't think of any reasonable alternative cause for the trigger guard rails becoming bent while the rifle was in service, no other firing stress would be that high. I suspect this sort of bend could only happen it the king screw had already backed out due to recoil leaving the fore end free to twist around some. That much force may well have broken the fore end that had been on it as well.
Getting the rails straight wasn't that hard, they are not particularly thick or strong. If these were not tempered up to standards that would have allowed them to bend more than they should have.

[303Guy]

Yup. I was wrong! That makes perfect sense now.:drinks: