Bad experience with Hornady

[stubert]

I bought a set of new dimension dies for my .458 Lott. The resizing die is so small it makes the cases visabley tapered. After expanding to accecpt the bullet they are hourglass shaped. I phoned Hornady and gave the tech. some case measurments and they shipped a new die out that day. I recieved the die, tried it and it was exactley like the old one(making cases under sized) called Hornady again and they asked me to send both dies back with a sized case. I got the die back 2 weeks later, tried it and there was no differance. 3rd call to Hornady, talked to the same tech. and was told this time that the cases are supposed to be hourglass shaped so they hold the bullet tight. I asked, why aren't your new cases hourglass shaped and he told me new cases hold the bullet ok, but when
you reload they have to be like that to hold the bullet in. Long story, I am very unhappy, there Customer service stinks, They made up a fairytale and basicly told me sorry we can't help you. I'll never own another set of Hornady dies again.
Thanks for letting me vent. Stubert

[44man]

I make the most accurate loads I have ever had with Hornady dies.
What you should have sent them were some fired cases so they could see what your chamber looked like. It might not be to the specs that Hornady is using.
The dies might be right in that they size the portion of the brass that holds the bullet without over sizing the base.
Be interesting what others have to say that have the same caliber.

[Bass Ackward]

Man, are you lucky. The casting Gods are smiling down on you. You need to take those dies and put them under your pillow at night and sleep with them.

If you don't need to size that much, then don't put the die so far down in the press and can't you extend the decapping pin? Just partially size to suit your tastes. Consider it as neck sizing in a full length die. Your cases will fit your chamber better too.

But my guess is that once you really get to experimenting, you are going to have to say a bunch of Hail Marys for the terrible things you been thinking about Hornady. :grin:

[jcadwell]

My Lott dies do the same thing. It doesn't seem to be a problem... The bigger problem is the magnum ring at the bottom. After a handful of hot loadings the ring will expand and make the cases stick, even with full length resizing, because the die doesn't quite squish it enough... Wish there was a way to fix that.

[Bullshop]

My Lott dies do the same thing. It doesn't seem to be a problem... The bigger problem is the magnum ring at the bottom. After a handful of hot loadings the ring will expand and make the cases stick, even with full length resizing, because the die doesn't quite squish it enough... Wish there was a way to fix that.
jcadwell
Maybe I am misunderstanding you but if I am not and you are talking about the belt expanding then you are treding on thin ice. The belt on a magnum case should never expand to a measurable degree. If this is happening then you have exceded the max safe presure and may likely run into some serious trouble when several pressure factors come together in a random chance occurance. Please tell me it aint so!
BIC/BS

[jcadwell]

It aint so. Not the band. The case in front on the band. Since the die has a flared mouth the dies won't go far enough to get that last little bit of case above the band. I measured it with my calipers. It may be my Dillon setup. I have other magnums and it isn't a problem, just with the hornady dies and my 458...

[buck1]

I had the same trouble with a 480 ruger set of RCBS dies. I was ready to send them back. But after some MIC work I decided it was my once fired brass I had bought..............Buck

[jcadwell]

I've seen this tool for eliminating what I'm talking about... Don't know if it works or not...

http://www.larrywillis.com/458Lott.html

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm going to side with Hornady.

The Lott, being a belted magnum, straight-wall case, does all of it's headspacing on the belt. Since the Lott is a dangerous game caliber, the second most important criteria to headspacing safely and appropriately is feeding. One way to achieve this is to make the sizer die a little on the tight side, so that the case will practically fall into the chamber until the belt hits the corresponding shelf in the chamber. This is no different then the way I load 9mm, 10mm, and 45 ACP. All of those rounds have an hour-glass shape. The base of the bullet is mechanically prevented from being driven back into the case by the taper. Factory ammo with these worries are often made with cannelure around the case at the bottom of the bullet to provide a small shelf for the bullet to bottom-out on. To save that step for us reloaders, straight-wall cases often have sizing dies that squeeze the middle...

Just my opinion, FWIW.

[S.R.Custom]

...The base of the bullet is mechanically prevented from being driven back into the case by the taper. Factory ammo with these worries are often made with cannelure around the case at the bottom of the bullet to provide a small shelf for the bullet to bottom-out on. To save that step for us reloaders, straight-wall cases often have sizing dies that squeeze the middle...

On straight wall cases that headspace on the rim, that is the purpose of the crimp, no?

Historically, I've had problems with Hornady's dies in .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, and .358 Winchester. The sizers on the straight wall cartridges work the brass excessively (as you've experienced) and I had to grind .050" off the bottom of the .358 dies because they cut the hole too deep. Hornady seems to be one manufacturer that has dimensional... difficulties... and I won't even get into that goofy bullet seating arrangement.

Jcadwell: I have that very die for my 7mm Remington Magnum, and while it's a bit more cumbersone to operate than a 'typical' sizing die, it makes some truly beautiful and perfectly sized cases. It also is quite adept at salvaging oversized cases. I strongly urge you to get it; you'll never go back to conventional sizing of rifle cases again... :-D

[MakeMineA10mm]

SuperMag - Sure the crimp can BOTH hold the bullet from pulling forward and prevent the bullet from being shoved rearward, but that doesn't stop factories from putting cannelures on cartridges like the 38 Special...

On the other hand, in my 444 Marlin (which I load with Hornady dies), I get the same coke-bottle/hourglass shape, and I appreciate it in that application especially, because the crimp isn't something I want to rely on considering magazine spring tension and the pressure on the bullet/crimp from the cycling of the ammo through the action, and the lack of a smooth ramp during feeding (which means the bullet nose bounces into the receiver/breech-end of the barrel while feeding).

Lastly, while it doesn't seem applicable with the original poster's load in the Lott, there are bullets I have to crimp on the ogive, because of the restricted OAL in the 444. I NEED that coke-bottle shape to hold the bullet from being pushed into the case, because in that particular situation, the crimp will NOT hold the bullet from being seated deeper. There are some horror stories about telescoping (where all the bullets in the tube magazine have their crimps overwhelmed by the tension of the magazine spring).



For the discussion:
Another factor that I neglected to mention above is that the factory rep. was also right in that fired brass is less elastic than fresh brass. This is why annealing is important, but even then, annealing is only recommended every 5 loadings or more. That leaves 4 repititions of sizing and expanding-upon-firings so more work hardening...

[44man]

I would never part with my Hornady .44 and .45 dies. I neck size only unless a case gets hard to chamber. They look like coke bottles but give me the proper case tension without sizing the whole case. The expander is exactly right in that it doesn't open the case too far and only extends a short distance into the neck.
For the extreme accuracy I have tweaked from these rounds, I overlook the ugly case.
My 45-70 dies also do a wonderful job.
I would never say that they over work a case. You just have to be aware of chamber differences between guns. Some Rugers and many others have generous chambers and it would appear that they are sized too much when in fact the case is being returned to factory specs. Try and stick a fired .44 case from a Ruger into a S&W 29 and you will see why it looks like it is being over sized.
Learn to neck size and keep those cases just for the one gun because they won't fit another.
I have dumped all of my RCBS dies and replaced them with Hornady's. The only other dies I keep are Redding. RCBS always gave me inaccurate revolver loads because they over expand the brass. Yes, the expanders could be fixed but I would only bother if the dies were carbide.

[stubert]

New brass measures .481 o.d. at the mouth, the resizer is taking them down to .469 o.d. then I have to expand it back up to accept the bullet. It makes a noticable hourglass on loaded rounds. I can't see getting very many loadings on them.

[44man]

Sounds like a lot. I have no experience with the Lott so I can't say.

[Bullshop]

jcadwell
I am glad to hear that! I will sleep better now. Say I was pondering your problem kinda wondering what could be done cheaply and easily to fix it. I wonder what if instead of grinding on the die as the other fella did how about this. Make up a blank shell holder, one with no rim cut just flat and solid. After decapping pull the decap assembly from the die. Now with the blank shell holder in the press ram push a case into the die until the belt bottoms out on the belt recess cut in the die. The case can then be removed from the die with a stuck case remover type knock out rod or better yet if its long enough a Lee hand decap rod. Dont forget to lube the area at the belt. Maybe some Bull Size would help there. Sorry I had to put in my plugg there.
Anyway give it some thought. Either I am plum goofy or it might actualy help.
BIC/BS

[Halfbreed]

Jcadwell, I shoot a 458 winnie alot, I have never seen a problem with sizing a case where this new fangled die would be needed. strange all these many years after the belted magnums, these dies are suddenly needed?
John

[ktw]

New brass measures .481 o.d. at the mouth, the resizer is taking them down to .469 o.d. then I have to expand it back up to accept the bullet. It makes a noticable hourglass on loaded rounds. I can't see getting very many loadings on them.

I started to take more of an interest in this phenomenon when I started shooting cast. I don't think the bottleneck shape in straight sided cartridges is the least bit of a problem with jacketed - its a good way to get good neck tension. I am still wondering what that much case neck tension does to the diameter of soft cast bullets when loaded into brass. In testing the dies I have on hand (45 Colt), I found that

RCBS (standard, carbide) sized down the furtherest,
Lyman (7/8x14, carbide) didn't size down as much, and
Lyman 310 Muzzle Resizer sized down the least (as measured by outside case neck diameter).

I don't have any Hornady dies.

It was my understanding that The Hornady New Dimension and the RCBS X dies were designed to size down a lot and that the RCBS Cowboy dies were designed to size down only a modest amount, specifically for cast bullet shooting.

-ktw

[floodgate]

bullshop:

I HAVE seen 0.001" - 0.0015" expansion on the belt with factory .358 Norma Magnum, in a custom rifle for which the 'smith forgot to allow the freebore specified for those loads - it is SCARY!!! Primer pockets were still tight, and the FN'98 commercial action showed no damage or setback. We had the throat cut out to specs, and now it behaves itself OK.

floodgate

[floodgate]

" Sure the crimp can BOTH hold the bullet from pulling forward and prevent the bullet from being shoved rearward, but that doesn't stop factories from putting cannelures on cartridges like the 38 Special..."

The cannelure under the bullet base was originally used with early smokeless loads in original Black Powder cartridges, in the early 1900s, since - unlike BP - the smokeless loads didn't fill the case to the base of the bullet, and set-back in tubular magazines was a problem, especially with the thin-walled brass used in those days. The cannelure became a sort of "code" to indicate smokeless loads, up th WW II. In other cartridges - the .38 Specials especially - cannelures were also used as a code to identify different loadings - often two or more rings of straight and dotted indentations - for the various target, standard and hot loads, mostly to keep the various loadings straight in factory packaging. The early .44 Magnums also had cannelures,and I remember being surprised - and delighted - around 1970, to find that Norma was loading the .44 Maggies in un-cannelured brass, and bought several boxes to get it for reloading.

floodgate

[Boomer Mikey]

If you don't need to size that much, then don't put the die so far down in the press and can't you extend the decapping pin? Just partially size to suit your tastes. Consider it as neck sizing in a full length die. Your cases will fit your chamber better too.

But my guess is that once you really get to experimenting, you are going to have to say a bunch of Hail Marys for the terrible things you been thinking about Hornady. :grin:

BA always seems to beat me to my point of view.

This is a common problem with all dies. Die manufacturers make dies to size cases smaller than SAAMI minimum specs and most dies have generously rounded surfaces which prevents sizing the web ahead of the belt. I use RCBS and Redding dies the most but I have several sets of Hornady dies too and all of them size cases too small. To aggravate the situation most chambers are oversize to account for variations in ammunition manufacture and the occasional grain of sand, dirt, unburned powder, etc. especially in a dangerous game rifle.

I resolve this issue as BA has noted by adjusting dies to size cases to dimensions I want by backing the die away from the shell holder until sized cases are where I want them. Special dies are available to size the area ahead of the belt in another operation. Hardened steel dies are no match for carbide tooling and it's easy to cut back the nose of a scrap die and bore it out to size the case ahead of the belt too.


Boomer :Fire:

[stubert]

Looks like I'll be neck sizing only. crimp is not a proiblem, I have a Ruger #1.

Thanks Stubert