Savage Gives Up on .300 AAC

[bowfin]

From the Savage website:

http://www.savagearms.com/

300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:


Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.

It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.

Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

[Nobade]

I have to laugh when I see this. If Savage would make a barrel that was actually .308" in the grooves so it would seal the gas behind it, and didn't get bigger toward the muzzle, they wouldn't have accuracy problems.

I have built quite a few 300BLK guns with Kreiger and Brux barrels and they are all super accurate either super or subsonic.

[fireball168]

No accuracy complaints as of yet for any of the 300 Blackout Savage barrels I'm peddling.

[Gtek]

Any bets it is a PC move. They ( Corporate Lawyers) can stand the hunt and Police style weapons
but I have a feeling the 300 gives them the willies! Gtek

[HARRYMPOPE]

Ruger had the 308 XG1 that wouldn't work for them either.The Ruger would put the first shot out of a magazine that was racked by hand at a wild point of impact.they couldn't solve it so they scrapped it.
Some things just dont work for a companies standards.

[Gunnut 45/454]

Well Rem 220 subs out of my 16" carbine 1:8" twist, unsurpressed give me a quarter sized group at 25 yards! Thats with a 4 MOA red dot!:bigsmyl2: It's hard to believe they can't get good accuracy with a bolt gun. Weird.

[HARRYMPOPE]

that's about 3-3/4" at 100 yards.If they got MOA it wouldn't be good enough to market for them i bet.I doubt that they are being dishonest.

[35remington]

If they said that with their rifles they could not get it to shoot properly, nobody would be able to prove them wrong. They are their own producer, after all.

Given that nobody here knows just what Savage tried to get the cartridge to shoot, perhaps it would be a good idea to take them at their word. If you think other manufacturers can make it work, buy their products.

Given that a super slow, very long bullet can have stabilization issues even in fast twists at low speed, and is temperature and altitude sensitive at just under the subsonic range, I don't find their comments all that hard to believe.

[bowfin]

that's about 3-3/4" at 100 yards.If they got MOA it wouldn't be good enough to market for them

That's actually shooting as well as a 4 MOA red dot is capbable. I think one would need a more precise sight to see what the shooter/gun/cartrdige set up is capable of producing.

I'm not knocking red dots, as we used them for years when scopes were illegal during muzzleloader season. With a 4 MOA dot, we would use the top of the dot as the aiming point.

[paul h]

Having shot subsonic loads out of a 300 whisper contender handgun that would litterally put all shots into the same whole at 80 yds (snow was too deep to hike to the 100yd berm), I find that hard to believe. The 300 whisper has been around for decades, and there is plenty of experience loading and shooting it in a variety of platforms.

My guess would be if they are shooting factory ammo, whoever is loading the ammo isn't able to through consistant powder charges. The subsonic loads use relativel small powder charges, and if the ammo manufacturer is using powder throwers that can't hold tight consistant charges, I'd bet this would be the issue.

[L1A1Rocker]

Well, let's see here. . . If you take a cartridge designed to be shot from a 1:8 twist barrel that is 16 inches long producing muzzle velocity of 1010 fps; and then fire said cartridge from 1:10 twist barrel that is 20 inches long what do YOU think the results will be?

These results that Savage got were either planned, or the person behind the project knows nothing about shooting/load development.

On edit: Wilson Combat recently announced an 18 inch 300BLK barrel. I'm not expecting stellar accuracy from that barrel with factory sub sonics either.

[L1A1Rocker]

My guess would be if they are shooting factory ammo, whoever is loading the ammo isn't able to through consistant powder charges. The subsonic loads use relativel small powder charges, and if the ammo manufacturer is using powder throwers that can't hold tight consistant charges, I'd bet this would be the issue.

Actually the problem is that Savage didn't follow the SAMI specs. By putting ammo designed to attain 1010fps from 16 inch barrel through a 20 inch barrel the bullet is coming out the barrel in that very (and ALWAYS to be avoided) unstable trans sonic speed. I suspect that a custom hand load that produced muzzle velocity of 1010 fps out of their 20 inch barrel would improve their accuracy problem. So would going to a 1:8 twist.

[Rocky Raab]

If I had to guess who knew more about gun design, ballistics, and accuracy, and the choices were the pros at Savage versus an anonymous voice on the internet, I'd vote for the guys at Savage.

Just sayin'

[L1A1Rocker]

If I had to guess who knew more about gun design, ballistics, and accuracy, and the choices were the pros at Savage versus an anonymous voice on the internet, I'd vote for the guys at Savage.

Just sayin'

I wonder why "the pros at Savage" didn't follow SAMI specs??? Maybe they are more knowledgeable about gun design, ballistics, and accuracy, than those that did all the research and development on the 300BLK and ammo for it. Then again, they couldn't do what others are . . .

Just sayin' a'course.

[btroj]

I wish they had gone thru with it. I personally don't care aout subsonic, heavy bullets. I see the 300 AAC and 300 Whisper as having great potential as cast bulelt cartridges. Give me a 1/10 twist and let me have at it.
Oh, I want a barrel longer than 16 inches too. And no muzzle threads

[leadman]

I've been shooting a Custom Contender 18" barrel with 1 in 8 twist for over 10 years now.
Very accurate with super sonic 125gr Nosler BTs. It does real well with 11 to 11.5grs of WC680 behind a 314299 sized .310" and weighs around 206grs depending on alloy. This is gas checked and most of the time air cooled WW.
One day I put 50 rounds in a 100 yard target in about 3", no cleaning and steady firing.

I have shot the Sierra 240 and 220gr match bullets at 100 yards and they were from 2" to 3" groups. I then shot the same loads at 200 yards, with the same group sizes. Guess it just takes awhile for the bullet to settle down.

The heavy bullet loads are interesting, but you really need a mil-dot scope or alot of adjustment to shoot these at differing ranges. The drop is crazy beyond 100 yards.

I have taken a fair amount of game with it to include mule deer so it does serve a purpose.

I think the difficulty connecting with the target at long range is causing many people to give up on their gun. Sure see alot for sale around here.

[Ed in North Texas]

I wonder why "the pros at Savage" didn't follow SAMI specs??? Maybe they are more knowledgeable about gun design, ballistics, and accuracy, than those that did all the research and development on the 300BLK and ammo for it. Then again, they couldn't do what others are . . .

Just sayin' a'course.


Answer 1: They figured out there would never be enough people interested in this caliber to bother putting it in the lineup.

Answer 2: They didn't consult you.

Ed

[L1A1Rocker]

Answer 1: They figured out there would never be enough people interested in this caliber to bother putting it in the lineup.

Ed

I guess their crystal ball says something other than what other manufactures' does.

Edit to add a list of companies making 300 BLK products, courtesy of Robert Silvers:

* AAC - uppers, rifles, silencers, and ammunition.
* Adams Arms - rifles and uppers.
* Addax Tactical
* Alexander Arms - rifles.
* All Weather Arms - brass processing.
* Ambush Firearms - rifles.
* Arnold's Ammo - ammo.
* AR-Stoner - barrels.
* Atlanta Arms - ammo.
* Armalite - rifles, barrels, uppers.
* AR-X Enterprises - barrels, uppers, rifles.
* Barnes Bullets - ammo, bullets.
* Barnes Precision Machine - barrels, uppers.
* Bergara - barrels
* BFG Cartridges - Savage barrels.
* Black Dawn Firearms - AR rifles.
* Black Hills Ammunition - ammo.
* Black Hole Weaponry - barrels.
* Brad's Warehouse - converted brass.
* Bushmaster Firearms - uppers and rifles.
* BVAC - ammo.
* BWE Firearms - rifles, uppers, and suppressors.
* Centurion Arms - barrels, uppers, and rifles.
* Chattahoochee Gun Works - uppers, rifles.
* CMMG - barrels, uppers, and ammo.
* Compass Lake Engineering - AR barrels.
* Cor-Bon - ammo
* Core15 - rifles, uppers.
* Custom Reloads of Dallas - ammo.
* CVA.
* Daniel Defense - rifles.
* Delta Company Arms - rifles, barrels, uppers.
* Dillon Precision - reloading conversion kits.
* Double Star - rifles.
* Double Tap - ammunition.
* DPMS - rifles and uppers.
* DS Arms - rifles and uppers.
* ER Shaw - barrels.
* Forster - reloading dies.
* Freedom Munitions - ammunition.
* Glockplates.com - ejection port cover.
* Grim Reaper Tactical - barrels, uppers, lowers, and rifles.
* Gunn - ammunition.
* High Precision Range - ammunition.
* Hornady - ammo, dies, brass.
* Houston Armory - barrels.
* Hunting Shack - ammunition.
* Kel-Tec - SU16C.
* Kiss Tactical - lowers.
* Lee - reloading dies, bullet molds.
* Lehigh Defense - bullets, ammo.
* L.E. Wilson - case gauges.
* Lewis Machine and Tool - barrels, uppers, rifles.
* Liberty - rifles and suppressors.
* Loki Weapon Systems - uppers/rifles.
* Lone Star Armory - 300 AAC BLACKOUT marked lowers.
* Lothar Walther - barrels.
* LWRCI - rifles.
* Marks Armory - uppers.
* Match Grade Machine - Thompson barrels.
* McGowen Barrel - Savage and other barrels.
* McCourt Munitions - ammo.
* Missouri cast bullets - bullets.
* Model 1 Sales - AR barrels/uppers.
* Montana Rifleman - barrels.
* Mossberg - MVP rifle.
* MSAR - AUG rifle, barrel.
* NAP-TAC - barrels.
* NOE Bullet Moulds - bullet moulds.
* Northern Rifleman - uppers.
* Noveske - rifles and uppers.
* Olympic Arms - rifles and uppers.
* One Shot - ammo.
* Pac-Nor - barrels.
* Outlaw State Bullets - bullets.
* Pacific Tool and Gauge - reamers and gauges.
* PalmettoStateArmory - uppers, barrels.
* PNW Arms - ammo.
* Primary Weapons Systems - rifles and uppers.
* Profire Arms & Supply - ammo.
* Quentin Defense - lowers.
* Rainier Arms - barrels.
* Raven Armament Company - ammo and uppers.
* RCBS - dies.
* Redline Firearms llc - uppers.
* Red Star Ammunition.
* Red X Arms.
* Redding - dies.
* Remington - ammunition.
* Right 2 Bear Ammo - ammunition.
* River Valley Ordnance - reformed brass.
* Robarms - XCR Micro rifle.
* RMW / Ron Williams - barrels.
* RUAG - ammo.
* Satern Custom Machining, Inc. - barrels.
* Seekins Precision - rifles.
* Selph Arms LLC - barrels, uppers, re-chambering, and rifles.
* Sheepdog Ammo - ammo.
* SI Defense - barrels.
* Sig Sauer - rifles.
* Silver State Armory - brass, ammo.
* Smith & Wesson - rifles, uppers.
* SNIPERCO - uppers.
* Sierra - bullets.
* SilencerCo - silencers.
* Sota Arms - barrels.
* Southern Ballistic Research - ammo.
* Southwest Ammunition, LLC - ammo.
* Spike's Tactical - uppers and rifles.
* Summit - ammo.
* Surefire - 300 BLK sound suppressor.
* S.W.O.R.D. International - rifles.
* Tactical Machining - lowers.
* The Bullet Works - bullets and ammunition.
* Top Notch Tactical - ammo.
* Triton Arms - AR barrels.
* 2 VETS ARMS CO LLC - rifles/uppers.
* Ultra Tech - ammo (Australia)
* Umlaut Industries - 300 BLK caliber marked Rifles, Upper and Lowers. 16" and 10" Factory Title II.
* Underground Tactical Arms - uppers.
* White Oak Precision - AR barrels.
* Whidden Gunworks - trim dies.
* Wilson Combat - rifles, hunting and self defense ammunition.





Answer 2: They didn't consult you.


It's not about me, it's about SAMI specifications - that Savage didn't follow.

[btroj]

Does SAAMI have specs for barrel length and twist? I thout they dealt more in chamber drawings and max pressure, not barrel length and twist rate.

[L1A1Rocker]

Does SAAMI have specs for barrel length and twist? I thout they dealt more in chamber drawings and max pressure, not barrel length and twist rate.

In most cases rifle cartridges "assume" a 20 inch barrel and are not noted by SAAMI. The 300 BLK was designed to run super sonic or sub sonic without the need of an adjustable gas block/tube. In doing this there was needed an extra consideration with factory sub sonic ammo standardization. In order to insure that factory sub sonic ammo stayed sub sonic, a 16 inch barrel was specified in the SAAMI specifications with 1:8 RH twist.

An additional note: It was later found that the 240gr SMK's would not consistantly stabilize with the 1:8 twist, as such most all manufacturers are in the process of switching to 1:7 twist. The 240 SMK has been the only bullet, so far, found to have stabilization issues with the 1:8 twist.

Another additional note: Anyone that has any experience working up (or down as the case may be) a sub sonic loading understands the issue of trans-sonic bullets. In plane terms - a bullet in trans-sonic velocities buffets and is very inaccurate. A typical muzzle velocity that people try to achieve is between 1010 and 1050 FPS.

[Ed in North Texas]

I guess their crystal ball says something other than what other manufactures' does.

Edit to add a list of companies making 300 BLK products, courtesy of Robert Silvers:



It's not about me, it's about SAMI specifications - that Savage didn't follow.


Wow, all those companies are making rifles? Er - no. And complete rifles are a far larger investment than most of those companies are involved in. This is a niche market, not a mainstream market - no matter how much you might wish it otherwise.

Frankly, you hurt your cause with BS like that list. It would impress a 5 year old, maybe even a 9 year old. It is otherwise insulting that you think people on this site...

Never mind.

Ed

[btroj]

I am well aware of the trams-sonic issues.

Personally, I would love a 300 AAC. It would never see 240 trainers at subsonic velocities. It would see lots of 165 RCBS SIL bullets in the 1300 range.

I am not into the whole "tactical" thing, I see it more as a nice, small volume 30 cal cast bullet case.

I doubt I will ever have one. Not gonna pay tha much for an upper for my AR. A Savage would be nice but not with a 16 inch barrel.

Great cartridge, wrong application for me.

[bowfin]

Just a conjecture here, but I wonder if Savage decided that they could better use their resources elsewhere, since there is a gun buying boom of historical proportions going on right now. It might be (and just conjecture here, mind you) that they had other irons in the fire that they wanted to pursue more than the .300 Blackout.

So Savage might have bailed out early and left the efforts to others to pursue something they have in the works which they think might be more financially rewarding.

[btroj]

What? A business making a decision based pon business? What a novel concept!

I agree. If Savage is selling all they can make now then why mess with something new?

[L1A1Rocker]

Wow, all those companies are making rifles? Er - no. And complete rifles are a far larger investment than most of those companies are involved in. This is a niche market, not a mainstream market - no matter how much you might wish it otherwise.

Frankly, you hurt your cause with BS like that list. It would impress a 5 year old, maybe even a 9 year old. It is otherwise insulting that you think people on this site...

Never mind.

Ed

Again, it's not about me, it's about Savage not following SAAMI specs. Why you are trying to start something with me over this I do not know. Mis-statements, strawman supposition and an accusation that requires clairvoyance on your part all in the first paragraph. Wow! Something must have really put a bur under your saddle.

Again more conjecture in the second paragraph along with two insults. Not sure what your problem is with me, maybe you just feel everyone is entitled your opinion - or is that your high handed ideals . . . [smilie=l: I'm reminded about that old saying on opinions . . . what IS that smell???:smile:

I do not understand, how when some people are presented with facts that they do not like, they so quickly resort to insults of such a fine standard - as if such insults had standards. That's so :awesome:

[L1A1Rocker]

I am well aware of the trams-sonic issues.

Personally, I would love a 300 AAC. It would never see 240 trainers at subsonic velocities. It would see lots of 165 RCBS SIL bullets in the 1300 range.

I am not into the whole "tactical" thing, I see it more as a nice, small volume 30 cal cast bullet case.

I doubt I will ever have one. Not gonna pay tha much for an upper for my AR. A Savage would be nice but not with a 16 inch barrel.

Great cartridge, wrong application for me.

I hear what you're saying. The 16in barrel looks very short on most conventional rifles. AAC was invisioning picking up where the Air Force left off back in the 60s (IIRC). They wanted a better, more versatile round for military application that would only take a barrel swap with existing GI rifles.

I myself got into casting BECAUSE of the 300 BLK. I was actually in the middle of building an internally suppressed 300 Fireball on an AR platform when the BLK was announced. I had one of the first conversion reamers out as I quickly saw how the BLK fixed a few problems with the 300 Fireball/whisper/whatever. Anyhow, I was just getting over the stickershock of the price on 220 gr pills when someone from here announced on the quarterbore forum (300 whisper forum) a mold being planned for the 300 Whisper (NOE 247). And that started me down the road to casting.

I noticed that you said that you did have an AR. Palmetto State Armory makes some great barrels at very fair prices. If you (or a friend) have the tools, a barrel swap is pretty quick and easy on the AR - or maybe peace together an upper. The BLK uses everything else from the 556, it really is just a barrel swap. AND, if you like, Wilson Combat recently announced 18 inch barrels - just don't expect decent accuracy with factory sub-sonics, you'll need to roll your own for that LOL.

[btroj]

I have 2 AR 15s. I would build a new upper, can't see taking apart a great service rifle upper for this. I would also want a flat top for scope, or red dot use.

I would consider this but with a daughter starting college in less than a month money is an issue.

[Ed in North Texas]

Again, it's not about me, it's about Savage not following SAAMI specs. Why you are trying to start something with me over this I do not know. Mis-statements, strawman supposition and an accusation that requires clairvoyance on your part all in the first paragraph. Wow! Something must have really put a bur under your saddle.

Again more conjecture in the second paragraph along with two insults. Not sure what your problem is with me, maybe you just feel everyone is entitled your opinion - or is that your high handed ideals . . . [smilie=l: I'm reminded about that old saying on opinions . . . what IS that smell???:smile:

I do not understand, how when some people are presented with facts that they do not like, they so quickly resort to insults of such a fine standard - as if such insults had standards. That's so :awesome:

I like to see facts backed up with documentation, so here's the link to the SAAMI drawing for the .300 Blackout.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/300%20AAC%20Blackout.pdf

A search of the SAAMI website finds no other documents/entries for .300 Blackout. If you have relied on a different name for this cartridge, please post that name.

Show us where it specifies a 16" barrel. Or any barrel length, for that matter.

I agree that it does show an 8" RH twist, but I'd also note that this is listed under a heading of "Optional". Perhaps the meaning of "optional" has changed over the decades since I was in school?

If your allegation that Savage hasn't followed the SAAMI specs includes that Savage has been using a chamber outside the SAAMI minimum/maximum specifications, then please post your reference.

If you are relying on some different SAAMI specifications than those in the SAAMI official drawing, please post your reference link.

Ed

[35remington]

A quote from the Savage comments:

"Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist."

Hmm. Seems to say that they tried the optimum, the non optimum, and maybe the super optimum in terms of barrel length and twist rate......and some here are claiming they did not.

Where, exactly, is the evidence that Savage didn't "try?" Who is this "insider" that knows exactly what Savage did and did not do?

You know who you are. What member of Savage's design team are you, and when did you start working for them?

[bowfin]

Who is this "insider" that knows exactly what Savage did and did not do?

That would be me...I know that Savage did not succeed, and for that, all the "inside information" I needed was on their homepage.

I guess it is time for a "Post your results" thread. Conjecture and opinion is always trumped by results.

[southpaw]

What is the standard accuracy for this cartridge at 100 yards? I know that all my savage rifles will shoot less than 1" groups ( .5"- .75" are the norm). Probably better with someone who really knows how to shoot. Just want to have something to compare to.

Jerry Jr.

[35remington]

Actually, bowfin, that wasn't for you. L1A1 seems to know exactly what Savage did and did not do, so I'd like the member of Savage's R&D team, since he was obviously on it, give us details about what was tried. Especially since he knows that Savage did not use "approved" SAAMI dimensions.

Or did they? How does he know, exactly, unless he's on their staff?

[bowfin]

35remington, no offense taken.

I don't have the resources or inclination for a subsonic rifle at the present time, although everything firearms related eventually gets me intrigued.

Savage said they concentrated on subsonic loads, and that makes sense since that is the raison d'etre for this cartridge. If one wanted something less than a .308 Winchester in a AR platform, with supersonic loads, Hornady raves about the efficiency of the .30 AR and there is also the 7.62x39.

I also don't have the slightest idea at what range subsonic loads should be tested or at what distance they would be used. 50 yards? 100 yards?

Accuracy standards are "I don't know." Hog hunting accuracy and MOA are probably the opposite ends of the spectrum, so name your own parameters here.

I have a soft spot in my heart for Savage, because of my old lefthanded Savage 30-06 that was absolutely reliable and fit me great, plus my lever action 99s. I also like their rags to riches story under their present CEO, but no one bats a 1,000.

I see Savage bailing out as an opportunity for many others who have had success. Savage, I am sure, can sell all of the long range target and varminting rifles that they can ship out the door, and the autumn hunting season is fast approaching. Savage might be saying, We can't figure it out for now, so if you have the answers, more power to you."

I do know several people who have been awaiting a Savage offering, so I posted this thread as timely news, and possibly good news if you are in the .300 AAC Blackout business.

[rsilvers]

I am the project lead for 300 BLK at AAC.

SAAMI does not require any specific barrel length for actual rifles, however, for the purposes of pressure test barrels, 16 inches is the SAAMI standard for 300 BLK. Meaning, if you are an ammunition maker, you are expected to test your ammunition and report the velocity from a 16 inch barrels. Remington loads the subsonic ammunition to 1010 fps in 16 inch reference barrels. The subsonic ammunition would be expected to go faster in longer barrels, and if it goes faster, it may go transonic and have accuracy problems.

SAAMI does not require any specific twist rate for any cartridges, but suggests 1:8 (that is what they mean by listing it as optional - it just means recommended but not mandatory). It is well known that 1:8 or faster twist is needed to make most 30 caliber subsonic ammunition stable. 1:10 would not be expected to shoot Remington subsonic ammunition well.

Most companies are moving to 1:7 twist barrels because 1:8 does not work with as wide a range of bullets - especially possible future bullets and especially 225-240 grain low drag boat tails. The 247 grain cast bullets seem fine in 1:8.

As for Savage - I can't see any demand for a 1:10 twist 20 inch 300 BLK, so I would be surprised if they had any orders for it. If that was what happened, then maybe they did not want to invest the R&D to ready the design to sell and decided it was easier to just cancel it than to make it work well.

About 120 companies are now making 300 AAC Blackout products, and it just won cartridge of the year:

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2012/07/ammo-year-barnes-110-grain-vor-tx-300-aac-blackout

If someone wants a bolt action rifle, there is the Remington 700:

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/remington-700-in-300-blackout/

There is also the AAC Micro-7:

http://www.officer.com/article/10614242/the-aac-micro-7-rifle

http://www.shop.stgfirearms.com/Advanced-Armament-Micro-7-300-AAC-AAC-Micro-7.htm

There is also the HandiRifle:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/04/18/hr-handi-rifle-in-300-aac-blk/


Think of it this way - you can't shoot 75 grain 223 ammunition in a 1:12 twist 223 rifle and expect good results, but rifles companies are free to make 1:12 twist 223 rifles. No one would buy one, though, if they wanted to shoot 75 grain 223 ammunition. Shooters and rifle companies alike know that. Likewise, no one would buy a 1:10 twist 20 inch barrel rifle in 300 BLK if they wanted to shoot 220 grain ammunition. Rifle companies know that or should know that.

[L1A1Rocker]

Thanks for your input in this Robert, much appreciated.

As far as Savage and what they were making/testing:

http://catalog.ammodepot.com/itemdetail.php?itemnumber=G19624
While this ad is not conclusive, it was widely distributed on the internet with the same specifications of 1:10 twist, 20 inch barrel.

If anyone would like to read a thread on the 300blk forum on the announcement of the Savage (including the barrel specs) you may do so here: http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=78074&start=0

With Robert's input I'm simply going to leave this thread with this:

Savage announced the rifle with 1:10 twist and 20 inch long barrel. They did begin a marketing campaign of the rifle with those specs listed. Savage later canceled the project stating that it would not work sub-sonic. They claimed to have tried multiple variations of barrel length and twist - such appears contrary to their marketing.

Many people have done just fine making the 300BLK work very well - some have even re-barreled their own Savage actions with great results.

People will take what they want from this. Some, being shown reality, will refuse to see. Some would rather attack and insult rather than challenge their own preconceived ideas. That is a real shame.

Thank you Cast Boolits for the ignore feature.

[Ed in North Texas]

Thanks for your input in this Robert, much appreciated.

People will take what they want from this. Some, being shown reality, will refuse to see. Some would rather attack and insult rather than challenge their own preconceived ideas. That is a real shame.

Thank you Cast Boolits for the ignore feature.

Well, some people's reality is calling a spade a spade, while others look at a garden rake and call it a shovel. L1A1Rocker has a different definition of "SAAMI specification" than I. Apparently that is his reality - and he's sticking to it. Words mean things - to most people.

Ed

[bowfin]

Savage needs to put this all behind them and get back to making Model 99s anyhow!

Everybody needs to know their place on this planet, and I am just the guy to telll them! (as soon as I clear it with my wife...and mother...[smilie=l:)

[Ed in North Texas]

Savage needs to put this all behind them and get back to making Model 99s anyhow!

Everybody needs to know their place on this planet, and I am just the guy to telll them! (as soon as I clear it with my wife...and mother...[smilie=l:)

I agree with making more 99s. I only have 3 and "need" more!

[Ed in North Texas]

I almost forgot to say how impressed I was with Mr. Silvers' responding on a Sunday. I have to guess, but suppose it was in reply to a "Back me up here buddy." request. As such it was an impressive display of responding while:

1. Not stating that the allegation that Savage failed to adhere to SAAMI specifications was correct; and,

2. Doing the best he could to support someone he might know while concurrently protecting the pecuniary interest* of his company and self. It was a very, very good effort.

And I do appreciate his confirming that my recollection of the definition of "optional" is still the same 5 decades after I graduated HS.

* That's interest in making money for those in Rio Linda.

Ed

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Ed,

reality is that, which if you dispute or ignore it, doesn't change to suit you or go away.

You have the data, by people involved in programs. It is not subject to your interpretation.
You have your opinion, based on a HS education.

You will have to make the two jibe, since no one else here can.

However, you do need to present the results of your extensive experimentation, including your contacts with the R&D Dept at Savage and other SAAMI member companies you did your testing with, or copied.

regards,

Rich
Sua Sponte

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed,

reality is that, which if you dispute or ignore it, doesn't change to suit you or go away.

You have the data, by people involved in programs. It is not subject to your interpretation.
You have your opinion, based on a HS education.

You will have to make the two jibe, since no one else here can.

However, you do need to present the results of your extensive experimentation, including your contacts with the R&D Dept at Savage and other SAAMI member companies you did your testing with, or copied.

regards,

Rich
Sua Sponte

Without getting into another pissing match, or - in other words I plan on no further response:

The OP (correction - the OP was Bowfin and I had no disagreement with a statement of Bowfin's. The poster I should have referred to was L1A1Rocker) stated that Savage, in their efforts to produce a rifle in this caliber, failed to adhere to the SAAMI specifications for the caliber, to wit a 16" barrel length and 8" RH twist. I subsequently posted the link to SAAMI specifications for the caliber. Nowhere in those specifications is there any requirement for a 16" barrel to be produced in the caliber. Nor is there a requirement for an 8" RH twist.

If you, or anyone else can show me where SAAMI specifies that a production rifle must have only a 16" barrel, and only an 8" RH twist in order to adhere to SAAMI specifications in a firearm they are building, I'd be happy to state publicly I am wrong.

I would point out that if you read the post from RSilvers, the AAC Project Director, he states the 16" is the required barrel length for pressure testing ammunition by ammunition manufacturers. I don't believe the thread mentioned anything about Savage manufacturing ammunition in this caliber. Mr. Silvers also pointed out that the 8" RH Twist is "optional", as stated in the SAAMI PDF file I linked.

The OP (correction - L1A1Rocker) saw Mr. Silvers' post (whom he apparently contacted with a "Back me up buddy" request) as complete factual vindication of his statements that Savage had failed to adhere to SAAMI specifications. My reading comprehension may not be perfect, but I disagree with that assessment.

If you have read his post and believe that Mr. Silvers did, indeed, backup the OP (again L1A1Rocker) and state that Savage failed to adhere to the SAAMI specifications for rifle production which mandate a 16" barrel and 8" RH twist, you apparently also have a different reality than Mr. Silvers and I.

Ed

P.S. I have a Batchelor's Degree and some Post Graduate coursework too - not that it makes a bit of difference in reading comprehension these days. My opinion is based on what I read, not whether I graduated HS or university.

P.P.S. My apologies to Bowfin for the erroneous reference

[5.7 MAN]

I read that Savage did the same thing with the 5.7X28, They could not make the rifle shoot accurately and decided not to produce it.

[Artful]

Am I the only one to find it ironic that we have a vendor on this site making
300 blk barrels for savage rifles

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=133129

:twisted:

[Moonie]

Am I the only one to find it ironic that we have a vendor on this site making
300 blk barrels for savage rifles

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=133129

:twisted:

Not at all, just because Savage says they couldn't do it doesn't mean it can't be done by others. Midwayusa.com has one listed for the savage as well so it is obviously possible.