trigger job vs power custom

[Whiterabbit]

Hi guys,

Awhile back I took my BFR to a correspondence school gunsmith for a trigger job and will never do that again. Trigger is as creepy as it ever was. At the moment I do not care about pull weight, I care only about creep.

I had it done because I wasn't comfy doing the work. Now, I've done a trigger job on a handi rifle (I know it's different, but still) and my confidence is far higher. Combined with now owning the Ruger shop manual vol. 1+2, I'm ready to tackle my BFR disassembly and to perform work if required.

My only goal right now is creep elimination.

But I've read conflicting opinions (is there ever consensus?) about whether stoning at home vs installing a power custom hammer is the more effective route (with respect to creep only!)

--

What do you guys think? Is there even a power custom kit made that is compatible with the BFR? Does the performance justify the price vs taking time with a stone and grease? The only thing I hesitate about is that I have no fixturing. But it seems that many folks get by just fine without the fixturing.

[44man]

Hi guys,

Awhile back I took my BFR to a correspondence school gunsmith for a trigger job and will never do that again. Trigger is as creepy as it ever was. At the moment I do not care about pull weight, I care only about creep.

I had it done because I wasn't comfy doing the work. Now, I've done a trigger job on a handi rifle (I know it's different, but still) and my confidence is far higher. Combined with now owning the Ruger shop manual vol. 1+2, I'm ready to tackle my BFR disassembly and to perform work if required.

My only goal right now is creep elimination.

But I've read conflicting opinions (is there ever consensus?) about whether stoning at home vs installing a power custom hammer is the more effective route (with respect to creep only!)

--

What do you guys think? Is there even a power custom kit made that is compatible with the BFR? Does the performance justify the price vs taking time with a stone and grease? The only thing I hesitate about is that I have no fixturing. But it seems that many folks get by just fine without the fixturing.
I remove creep by either stoning or actually grinding if it is too much.
You need to remove some metal and assemble to try, maybe many times. Just go slow. I did make a fixture to test but reached the point I can see how much to remove.

[gray wolf]

But I've read conflicting opinions (is there ever consensus?) about whether stoning at home vs installing a power custom hammer is the more effective route (with respect to creep only!)
Creep is caused by the length of the hammer hook, the distance the trigger sear travels before it allows the hammer to fall. If those two matting surfaces are smooth and polished the creep is not removed, it just becomes none gritty.
The hammer hook must be shortened so as two reduce the length of travel the sear has to make. There are also different angles that are or can be put on the matting parts, that requires skill and no how. Also different spring weights help a trigger job.


The only thing I hesitate about is that I have no fixturing. But it seems that many folks get by just fine without the fixturing.
Without a fixture you must be very good with the stones you use.
It's difficult for a non skilled hand to stone a smooth straight surface.
A lot of practice is in order if you have not done this before.
There are trigger jobs AND there are trigger jobs.

[Whiterabbit]

So, the handi hammer could brace itself on the stone. What I mean by that is I could lay the hammer down on the stone and polish the hook while bracing on a second portion of the hammer. This second portion was a non-critical area and not exposed to view either after assembly. Worked out pretty well. I'll need to verify if this is the case with the BFR hammer.

I'm not uncomfortable stoning the hammer hook if I can do this. But at this time I would rather not touch hook angles. Just shorten the hook.

Sounds like the recommendation is not to explore the power custom (yet) but rather work on it myself as step 1.

Can anyone confirm that a power custom hammer is compatible? You know, in case I bugger something up.

[Whiterabbit]

now here's a really dumb question that will show I'm wet behind the ear:

If a trigger has ZERO creep, why would it need polishing at all? I don't mean polishing for hammer motion, pins and the like, I just mean the mating surface of sear to hammer.

Is it possible to have a gritty but creep-less trigger pull? are we just talking about pull weight when it comes to polishign the mating surfaces? (assuming no creep)

[gray wolf]

It is harder to slide one surface against another if one or both are gritty
or rough. Polishing is part of the job, if done correctly everything comes together
and ensures a complete job. Yes don't mess with angles if you don't know what they will do.
But you will not shorten a trigger pull without shortening the hammer hook.
I think it's a mechanical impossibility.

[subsonic]

I can't confirm that the PC parts fit, but I think it's likely.

I have the PC kit in my Accu-Sport .45 and it is LIGHT! I actually had to put the stock return spring in at first because I felt that it was too light. Later I went back to the light spring....

I probably would not buy another Power Custom kit - a lot of money and I don't use the half-cock option. I would buy the free-spin pawl, which your BFR already has.

I wonder what the parts look like now that they have been worked over by that "gunsmith"?

[GP100man]

Here in coastal NC ya could just lay the trigger in the sunshine for a bit & it`ll expand to match the hammer !!!!

Interesting thread , for as many SAs I`ve shot , I`ve never took 1 apart !!
& the only 1 I own is a Ruger Single Six 22 convertable.

Now ya`ll can get back to more serious work on the BFR

[44man]

Never, ever change the angles, just polish. I use a ceramic stone. Break the sharp edge with a stroke.
Reduce the hammer surface to remove creep and it is best to leave a tiny amount.
Never reduce the trigger spring too much with a transfer bar Ruger or BFR because the if the trigger pushes forward the bar will drop. I make a longer transfer bar to get me to 1-1/2# to 2#.
Don't reduce the hammer spring. I go to over power Wolff hammer springs and still get light triggers.
My SBH will kick my finger forward BUT WILL NOT DROP THE BAR OFF THE FIRING PIN. It would not be legal for IHMSA since I made the transfer bar and trigger kick is not allowed.
After market kits are to make money. My BFR's and Rugers are as good as any S&W, maybe better.

[Whiterabbit]

I wonder what the parts look like now that they have been worked over by that "gunsmith"?

I think I found the problem

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/20082501230d598d2f.jpg

:(

more:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46382&stc=1&d=1343369611

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46381&stc=1&d=1343369585

This one is hard to see, but it is a hammer. Untouched. The gunsmith beveled 2/3rds of my sear and left the hammer rough.

I have no idea what to say.

[Whiterabbit]

OK, so minor update. Took 2 hours, but I was able to stone down the bevel and reduce it significantly. About 2/3rds reduction. major, major improvement. Not perfect yet, but I may take it back apart and stone some more to try to make it better.

Trigger feels lighter too, not sure what I feel about that. I'm figuring I can tighten up the return spring and buy a stronger hammer spring to affect that slightly if need be?

Most important, the Kuhnhausen shop manual writes of safety inspections (like push on the hammer at full cock, for example) to ensure the trigger is safe and I pass completely.

So I am encouraged. Creep is still there, but barely noticeable in the garage (which usually doubles when loaded at the firing line), at least I have a path to get creep free.

----------------------

What I'm scratching my head about, is how can a full-time in-house gunsmith at an indoor range and gun shop not only fail to do what a new guy could do in 2 hours after reading a book, but make it way way worse?

[44man]

You are doing good.
I do not understand that bevel the gunsmith put on the part.
I have done hundreds and almost never touch the trigger, maybe if it needs a ceramic stone for tool marks but most are good.
To reduce creep with a transfer bar system you reduce hammer contact with the trigger.
With old Colt styles, you never remove any metal, just polish.
Use a good lube.

[Ed K]

That bevel is not even. Its' geometry wanders all over the place. This why I make the case for a fixture. Of course if you can do it without one then power to you. Clearly this guy can not!

[44man]

That bevel is not even. Its' geometry wanders all over the place. This why I make the case for a fixture. Of course if you can do it without one then power to you. Clearly this guy can not!
Yes, a cheap way for a quick fix. Hit the trigger on a grinder. That only allows the hammer to scrub on the trigger.

[gray wolf]

I would not have played with the sear, not to remove creep.

[Whiterabbit]

oh man, NO way I am going to put my trigger or hammer on the grinder, that's crossing my line of comfort! I'll do it in 2 hours a day for a week if I have to on the Arkansas stone. Maybe it's complacency with respect to my HSS lathe cutters, but the few I've done (about a dozen) show me just how challenging it is to use a grinder with skill. No, I need more practice using that tool with precision.

What I do is one of two things. either rock the piece back and forth till I know it is flat, then make ONE pass, then start all over (moving my arm and shoulder to ensure even pressure, not my wrist which I know will fail every time), or if that is too slow, I hold the trigger still against the table, the stone against the table, and slide back and forth. I can brace on he table edge to keep things straight, or keep the stone lined up with the woodgrain on the table, etc. I'm sure it's not perfect like a fixture, but I know it's better than that bevel was!

I really need to take a picture. the difference is night and day.

Can't see it in the picture, but the machine marks on the trigger that face the camera are NOT flat and even. In fact, it's really quite un-flat. I have been stoning that surface taking extreme care not to change the angle, as well as giving the same treatment to the top surface of the sear. Together they slowly reduce that bevel size.

I am SURE this is "not the right way" to do it, but it seems like the damage is done and I have nothing to lose. And in the process at least I am removing the tool marks on the trigger and smoothing the section that rides on the hammer while cocking.

It's so un-flat that at the moment it is about 50% polished by surface area.

----------------

I think he plan will be to not touch the hammer till the trigger is polished, and only "go there" if the creep remains unpleasant on sandbags at the range. My goal is pretty benign, a pleasurable trigger pull (which doesn't need to be perfect to bring joy to the shooter!) and 2" groups at 100 off bags as an "every day" group. I know folks here can do way better than that so I think that is accomplishable!

[Whiterabbit]

Thanks for the continued advice guys, anything you say, I'm reading and taking to heart. Really.

So, I'm thinking about making a nice color print of that trigger pic above to give to the gunsmith as a gift, what do you think?

[gray wolf]

Go slow and take care, do it right.
This way you wont have to make a copy for yourself.
Said in jest.

[44man]

oh man, NO way I am going to put my trigger or hammer on the grinder, that's crossing my line of comfort! I'll do it in 2 hours a day for a week if I have to on the Arkansas stone. Maybe it's complacency with respect to my HSS lathe cutters, but the few I've done (about a dozen) show me just how challenging it is to use a grinder with skill. No, I need more practice using that tool with precision.

What I do is one of two things. either rock the piece back and forth till I know it is flat, then make ONE pass, then start all over (moving my arm and shoulder to ensure even pressure, not my wrist which I know will fail every time), or if that is too slow, I hold the trigger still against the table, the stone against the table, and slide back and forth. I can brace on he table edge to keep things straight, or keep the stone lined up with the woodgrain on the table, etc. I'm sure it's not perfect like a fixture, but I know it's better than that bevel was!

I really need to take a picture. the difference is night and day.

Can't see it in the picture, but the machine marks on the trigger that face the camera are NOT flat and even. In fact, it's really quite un-flat. I have been stoning that surface taking extreme care not to change the angle, as well as giving the same treatment to the top surface of the sear. Together they slowly reduce that bevel size.

I am SURE this is "not the right way" to do it, but it seems like the damage is done and I have nothing to lose. And in the process at least I am removing the tool marks on the trigger and smoothing the section that rides on the hammer while cocking.

It's so un-flat that at the moment it is about 50% polished by surface area.

----------------

I think he plan will be to not touch the hammer till the trigger is polished, and only "go there" if the creep remains unpleasant on sandbags at the range. My goal is pretty benign, a pleasurable trigger pull (which doesn't need to be perfect to bring joy to the shooter!) and 2" groups at 100 off bags as an "every day" group. I know folks here can do way better than that so I think that is accomplishable!
It is fine, you are doing away with the "gunsmith" damage. Not exactly because dimensions are changed but still OK. Go after the hammer for creep. Stoning the creep spot is not the trigger engagement area and all you want to do there is remove tool marks. Just remove the distance the trigger moves before break. That spot does not have to be a high polish.

[Whiterabbit]

Will do.

Next dumb question, do you guys torque the 5 gripframe screws to spec? I work with advanced hi-tech manufacturing equip and regularly tighten in star patterns to ensure even pressure and other little tricks to prevent galling and maximize fastener strength, but I don't own a torque wrench that will hold the allen bit for the grip frame.

It's a high-power handgun, do I need to make that investment (torque wrench) before having at it at the range?

[44man]

Will do.

Next dumb question, do you guys torque the 5 gripframe screws to spec? I work with advanced hi-tech manufacturing equip and regularly tighten in star patterns to ensure even pressure and other little tricks to prevent galling and maximize fastener strength, but I don't own a torque wrench that will hold the allen bit for the grip frame.

It's a high-power handgun, do I need to make that investment (torque wrench) before having at it at the range?
No, just loc-Tite and screwdriver tight. Those little nubs of nylon of Ruger screws do nothing. BFR does not use them. They are Allen wrench screws, do not strip heads.

[Ed K]

Not a dumb question at all...

I used to work in such an environment: everything was torqued to ASME spec, all equipment was calibrated, calibrations were vigorously audited, etc.

In the outside world not a lot is torqued that way. In industry we would torque electrical connectors for fire prevention. Did my electrician do so in my house? Nope. Does the Siemens load center call for it? Yes. Do electrical inspectors check for it? Nope.

This same contradiction exists for mechanical safety issues, product reliability and on and on in all sorts of scenarios.

So should you torque those screws? I do.

[Whiterabbit]

well, I bought the torque wrench anyways just in case I wanted to. We'll see if I use it cause now I'm gun-shy after snapping a screw on my scope base (#%$^!) using it. Maybe set to 20 in-lb

[Ed K]

Why guess?

http://www.portlandbolt.com/technicalinformation/bolt-torque-chart.html

I nice used Snap on tool can be had as cheaply as one of the Wheeler tools marketed to gun enthusiasts.

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt114/silviadrift987/chriscampics158.jpg

[frankenfab]

OK, can we stop calling that guy a gunsmith, now?:bigsmyl2:



:kidding:

[Whiterabbit]

My personal gun butcher?

[frankenfab]

My personal gun butcher?

Sounds like it. Great pictures and interesting thread, by the way.

[44man]

Torque is a strange thing and every screw size has it's own. So does the hardness of the screw. Too much can break a hardened screw.
The settings are based on a tiny amount of stretch from the steel so it resists loosening or breaking.
Torque wrenches are a new thing for mounting scopes and settings have not been standardized for each hardness.
They are mostly used to prevent scope tube deformation with ring screws. Those screws vary from maker to maker. Rings are steel or aluminum.
Feel with a screwdriver is better but some screws are so hard they snap before tight. Base screws are usually the best but the wrong torque will snap them. It is why I use a screwdriver and put a lot of torque by hand and just tap the handle. Slowly tightening with a torque wrench can exceed the strength of the screw. The wrench NEEDS the torque for THAT EXACT SCREW.
That wrench is another money maker for someone.

[white eagle]

"They are mostly used to prevent scope tube deformation with ring screws. Those screws vary from maker to maker. Rings are steel or aluminum. "

introduce the Burris signature series scope mounting system

[44man]

"They are mostly used to prevent scope tube deformation with ring screws. Those screws vary from maker to maker. Rings are steel or aluminum. "

introduce the Burris signature series scope mounting system
The worst scope I ever used was a Burris variable on the .44 mag. The tube was so soft nothing would hold it. I went to 4 rings and the scope skidded with rosin under the rings. The tube is ruined.
I have Tasco and leupold scopes with such strong tubes they have been on every gun to the .500 JRH with 2 rings without a mark.
Ultra Dots have good tubes but I have broken glass in cheap red dots so I no longer put a ring over glass.
There are too many variables with scopes, rings and screws, not one thing fits all.

[frankenfab]

"They are mostly used to prevent scope tube deformation with ring screws. Those screws vary from maker to maker. Rings are steel or aluminum. "

introduce the Burris signature series scope mounting system

+1 That's all I use. I even go to the trouble to center the adjustments on my new scope and use the offset bushings to stay as close to that adjustment as possible.

[subsonic]

Don't forget that torque can vary based on whether or not the threads are dry or lubricated. Most automotive engine (rod bolts for example) thread torque ratings are given with motor oil on them. They won't be tight enough if they are dry and you use the torque specified. You will break them off if you lube them with ARP moly lube and torque to the specification. ARP bolts even puts a note in their fasteners that specifies proper torque with their bolts and their moly lube.

[Whiterabbit]

So, minor update.

Big, big big improvements overall. Once I got it "close", I find it much more difficult to get it that much closer. I'm being really, really, careful with the hammer hook though. I'm finding it amazing how it takes so much polishing, polishing, polishing to get it from 0% to halfway there, and as soon as it looks like "I'm starting to make progress here", it takes just a few strokes to get it to "wow that's a smooth surface!"

I see what you guys are saying about revolvers being more of an art, not a science.

Anyways, it was easy to make a big improvement right away, and though I don't know if I am second guessing myself or what, but after the first HUGE improvement, sometimes I think I'm going backwards and sometimes not when testing the next stoning bit. Maybe it's the half-*** reassembly. I'm just popping in the trigger and hammer to check it, not the loading gate or transfer bar, etc.

What blew me away was polishing the hammer hook. I always thought a "smooth" trigger pull or a gritty one was for people who shoot double action stuff. None of my rifles (none) have any creep and this is my only pistol. So to feel a single action trigger pull that isn't yet creep free but go from a rough hammer to a smooth one blew me away. The difference is amazing.

Anyways, still working at it. Still grinding away, still getting better, and still have creep. I have a question though:

After a trigger job, do the surfaces "wear in" a bit after you do the work? will they continue to polish over the first 100 rounds or so? Should I keep stoning and stoning till it's PERFECT, or do I get it 95% there and assume some wear over time will bring it in to done? I ask because I don't want to make it perfect just to find that in 500 rounds it'll wear just enough to make unsafe.

how far do I go?

[44man]

Once polished, nothing gets better. Creep never will because it is the length of the rubbing surface until trigger drop off.
Only a rough surface will improve as it wears off high spots.
High polish has almost no wear with some lube. It will live longer then any of us.

[Whiterabbit]

Awesome. I have a 4 hour date with a hard arkansas stone in the next few days.

[Whiterabbit]

OK, here's where I am so far, where I think I will be for a few hundred rounds over a few months:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46701&stc=1&d=1344411102

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46702&stc=1&d=1344411115

The pics didn't come out as well as the first time around. But WOW what a difference. I'm still not 100% absolute creep free but I can definitely see the path there.

I've learned a bunch. I don't need a $200 trigger jig but wow jigs help a bunch! So does using the right grit for polishing. I hope it all translates to tighter groups at the range.

If it does, I'll try the poor boy's trigger job to lighten the pull just to try things out and maybe in the long term stone to zero creep. But it'll be fun to re-develop everything I've tried in the past!

[44man]

Super. It is fine to leave a tad of creep. There is no need to remove it all. I would not even try. Make it feel good.

[Whiterabbit]

The plan is to certainly see how she groups now, how she feels on the bench. I have high hopes now.