Any handgun round that benefits from consistent case length for consistency/accuracy?

[daddyseal]

I'm only speaking about Handgun cases here..., thanks

[wv109323]

I have never seen or heard about a straight walled pistol case that would benefit from trimming to an exact length. That would exclude cases like the .221 Fireball which is a bottle neck case.
Bullseye Pistol Shooters are about as finicky as it gets when it comes to getting the last bit of accuracy out of their ammo. With that said ,I don't know of any that trim their case length.

[daddyseal]

Thanks, I guess you could include me in the "wanna-be bullseye" types.
I've seen small variations in .40 cal...and much more in 45 ACP.
I was told that 45s shorten with use...is that true?

[Ronbo256]

I can vouch that .45 ACP cases shorten with use.

[wallenba]

If you use a profile crimp die such as the Redding, and I do, then having consitent case length insures a consistent crimp.
One thing I don't strictly adhere to, is the minimum trim to length of revolver pistol cases(rimmed). As long as the loaded OAL is OK, then the internal case volume is unchanged.

[paul h]

It's a matter of degrees. How much accuracy are you after and how much do the case lengths vary?

If you're shooting a handgun capable of moa accuracy and your case lengths vary by 0.020", then I'd say trimming the cases to be consistant will be beneficial. If however you're talking about a handgun that at it's best will group 1" at 10 paces, then you are unlikely to see a difference or benefit in consistant case lengths.

The key to accuracy is consistancy, but the bigger question is what factors have the greatest influence and at what point will eliminating an inconsistant factor shrink group sizes. As with most things related to accuracy is, it depends.

[Dale53]

The degree of roll crimp present in various cartridges in a group will give different ballistics. It can and will show up on the paper if the pistol/cartridge combination is accurate.

One of the reason for the popularity of taper crimping in .38 Special target ammo and .45 ACP target ammo is that taper crimping suffers less from variable length cases (or rather, the ammo suffers less when taper crimped). I have proven this to my satisfaction on the Ransom Rest.

As a matter of record, I do NOT trim my cases any longer but DO use a taper crimp on .38 wadcutter loads as well as my .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim cases.

Before the naysayer's attack me for suggesting that you can roll crimp .45 ACP's, you can if you headspace on the bullet. However, you had better have consistent case lengths for that to work well (see the NRA Reloading Manual for an article by famous pistolsmith Alton Dinan of the sixties and seventies extolling roll crimping of the .45 ACP with machine rest results).

FWIW
Dale53

[daddyseal]

Thank you for that...
You referred to both taper and roll crimps...are they the same?

[Wayne Smith]

Thank you for that...
You referred to both taper and roll crimps...are they the same?

NO! A roll crimp is usually what your seat/crimp die will provide. It will actually roll the edge of the case into the bullet. If the case is too long you get a bulge just below the crimp. This is typicaly used with rifle and revolver cartridges. A taper crimp is just that, it pushes the edge of the case into the bullet but leaves the outside edge to headspace the cartridge. This is typically used with pistol cartridges that headspace on the edge of the cartridge.

[Bret4207]

As to the original question- absolutely! The 32-20 can be a nightmare for wild shots. IIRC it was Ken Waters who first wrote that he'd found cases "growing shorter"! I followed up on his advice and my fliers were reduced dramatically.

[Char-Gar]

There are a number of pistol rounds, that can benefit from being trimed to a uniform length, IF best accuracy is your goal. Uniform length and square case mouths result in uniform crimps, which results in uniform bullet tension and pull, which results in uniform ignition and pressure, which results in better accuracy.

I do not trim autopistol rounds like the 45 ACP and 9mm.

I do trim sixgun rounds like the 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 44 Special, 44 Magnum and 45 Colt when I am looking best accuracy. Plinking rounds do not get the cases trimed.

I use file trim dies for this work. Trim a few cases and you will quickly find out they are neither square nor uniform in length. How can you get a uniform crimp with cases like that ? How often they need to be trimmed depends on a number of factors.

Both roll crimp and taper crimp have their uses. The Redding Profile Crimp die is a die that does a little of both at the same time. It is a senseless debate trying to fuss over which type of crimp is better, for as in many things about handloading, the answer is "it depends".

[sharps4590]

I used to shoot literally piles of 45 Colt. Over not very many reloads I noticed my roll crimp was shorter on one side than the other.....and accuracy went to pot. So, I ordered a taper crimp die to remedy the condiiton. Well, it worked ok but my several revolvers in 45 Colt sitll didn't display the same accuracy as before. I trimmed the cases which squared up the case mouths and everything came back to where it had been regarding accuracy. The old 32-20 is another case, as has been mentioned, that I had similar results with. I've seen the same in my 44 Spl. revolvers also.

That's my experience with revolvers. When it comes to semi-auto's I have nothing to offer as I'm about as ignorant as a fence post when it comes to reloading for them.

[daddyseal]

I know that many cases of all handgun (both revolver and pistol) calibers are manufactured with case mouths that are slightly Not square.

I tell by putting them in my calipers to measure case length...and as I carefully roll them, I get different readings until I get back to the place where I started the measure.
I trim those with my Lyman trimmer, so the crimp is uniform...

Thanks sharps4590

[Bret4207]

I don't shoot enough auto pistol rounds to be able to state anything as fact, but simple common sense says that uniformity can't hurt things. I would think brass with varying lengths and case mouths that are uneven would not give the same results as uniform brass. But- I don't know a soul that enjoys brass trimming!!!:groner:

[**oneshot**]

I'm in the trimming group. Anything I can do to make my ammo more consistant. But then again I'm also in that group of everything must be down to the last detail reloaders.

[dragon813gt]

I trim 357 for consistent crimps. Since I just plink w/ 38 special I don't bother. And any autoloaders I don't bother because they are just for fun as well.


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[Dale53]

I mostly shoot revolvers these days but I have a long (and good) history with 1911's. I learned that almost NO .45 ACP cases even reach the minimum length listed. Since I shoot almost exclusively my own cast bullets (I've put over 100,000 through the 1911's) I, at an early stage, started headspacing on the bullet. That way, I get consistent ignition, great accuracy (my 1911's are customs built from the ground up) and total reliability. I also taper crimp at a mouth outside diameter of .470".

I no longer compete but shoot quite a bit and demand good performance from my revolvers. I shoot mostly target loads in .32's, .38's, and .45's (.45 ACP and Auto Rim, mostly).

Works for me....

Dale53

[daddyseal]

I don't shoot enough auto pistol rounds to be able to state anything as fact, but simple common sense says that uniformity can't hurt things. I would think brass with varying lengths and case mouths that are uneven would not give the same results as uniform brass. But- I don't know a soul that enjoys brass trimming!!!:groner:
Right...I used to hate it when using a Lee hand trimmer~!!
But I just got a Lyman trimmer with power (drill) adapter, so it is quick and easy.

[KCSO]

Any of the that are crimped. I use to trim my 38 Special match rounds to get the most consistant crimp, but that was for off hand work and I was shooting for 2" groups at 50 yards.

[daddyseal]

Any of the that are crimped. I use to trim my 38 Special match rounds to get the most consistant crimp, but that was for off hand work and I was shooting for 2" groups at 50 yards.

That's what I'm looking for too, friend

[daddyseal]

I'm in the trimming group. Anything I can do to make my ammo more consistant. But then again I'm also in that group of everything must be down to the last detail reloaders.

I'm relatively new to reloading, but besides cost savings (now that I have all the equipment)...higher accuracy (consistently) is why I want to do it, friend.

[Char-Gar]

I stated in handloading over 50 years ago, so I could shoot as much as I wanted. Economy was the driving motivation. Then the sickness took over..and handloading for accuracy became a goal in and of itself.

Handloaders can produce ammo that is as good or better than factory ammo, and have much more versatile loads in the process. The factories don't produce much of the stuff we want.

For match quality (not talking cowboy bang bang matches) ammo in sixguns, triming will be necessary. Most action type handgun matches do not require the fine accuracy of the Bullseye discipline.

[Wally]

I used to shoot literally piles of 45 Colt. Over not very many reloads I noticed my roll crimp was shorter on one side than the other.....and accuracy went to pot. So, I ordered a taper crimp die to remedy the condiiton. Well, it worked ok but my several revolvers in 45 Colt sitll didn't display the same accuracy as before. I trimmed the cases which squared up the case mouths and everything came back to where it had been regarding accuracy. The old 32-20 is another case, as has been mentioned, that I had similar results with. I've seen the same in my 44 Spl. revolvers also.

That's my experience with revolvers. When it comes to semi-auto's I have nothing to offer as I'm about as ignorant as a fence post when it comes to reloading for them.

My Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk has oversized cylinder chambers. I noticed resizing fired cases with a carbide sizer die made them quite loose, when chambered. I bought a RCBS steel sizer die and find they now fit like they should, when resized. This helps to keep the case length "even" and seems to prevent the phenomenon that you mentioned.

[Char-Gar]

I have given up on carbide sizing dies for sixgun rounds. Way to much sizing. I have picked up some an early 60s RCBS sizer in 45 Colt and 38 Special. Life is much better now.

[45 2.1]

The degree of roll crimp present in various cartridges in a group will give different ballistics. It can and will show up on the paper if the pistol/cartridge combination is accurate. FWIW Dale53

This is very true, if you seat to one OAL. If you have a light hand on the press handle and stop seating when the pressure is the same as the shorter, normal length cases... or cull any that are lighter feeling from much shorter cases, then groups do not suffer.

[Silver Hand]

I trim all my wheel gun cases and check case the length on semi autos for max. length.
I purchase new WW primed - 44 cal. Rem mag. cases. They have a maximum case length!
There were some you could have use a ruler on they were so much over max length. The case necks were ragged also. I have no opposition to picking up brass left behind in the field or to buy used brass if it is worthy of shooting. The stuff varies quite a bit if you are talking about quantity.
Trimming gives me reassurance at the target all things are equal.
Does it matter? The last color coded lot of 44s I worked up with a 7-1/2'' Redhawlk fitted with a Nikon 1.5-4 scope, The first three of thirty rounds of the 145 grain RCBS swc with 8 gr. of unique, ww L pistol primer, ww cases trimmed, went into one hole @ ten yards sighting in the scope.
Two weeks later I ran the same test @ 25 yards bench rested. Again the same result three shots in the 1'' ten ring all in one hole. I do want to get back to the hi pressure loads which at the end of 30 rounds were 2'' @ 25 yards. Not what I want at all off the bench [ my hand was numb ]. I believe everything taken into consideration matters when accuracy is involved. Everything we don't consider might be is why it is just not there.
Once I have settled on a round I want to depend on it. Especially when shooting off hand.

[bobthenailer]

Since im a accuracy nut ! yes i do check oal after sizing and or trim my straight walled revolver brass about every 5 reloads and usually just sort by length my auto brass after sizing for serious work.
My rifle brass gets checked or trimmed every 2 ed reload
And use the same lot # for serious work in a handgun or rifle
or at least sort by brand for a specfic load ,

[daddyseal]

Since im a accuracy nut ! yes i do check oal after sizing and or trim my straight walled revolver brass about every 5 reloads and usually just sort by length my auto brass after sizing for serious work.
My rifle brass gets checked or trimmed every 2 ed reload
And use the same lot # for serious work in a handgun or rifle
or at least sort by brand for a specfic load ,

I'm bothered by some factory ammo case lengths...I'm looking a .40 S&W now, and they ALL are measuring short (to save money?) varying amounts between .849 to .843 After resizing...just barely over than the SAAMI standards minimum of .840 (max is .850)

I hate to do it, but for consistency, should I trim all to .844?

[Char-Gar]

I would not trim them. I would sort them into lots by length and load the shoot each lot seperate. This wil provide uniformity.

The 9mm case always have large swings in case length. When these are sorted by length, accuracy will take a big jump.

Just what I would do.

[popper]

I don't trim 40SW SA, but I am concerned about neck tension and CB fit. I TC just to make sure they chamber. I trim and chamfer rifle cases once just to clean up the mouth. I am not a good enough shot to be able to tell the difference if a case is a little long, short or slightly crooked. Maybe I'll get there some day.

[felix]

Trim length very seldom gets in the way of release pressure. The only time it does is when the case is so long that it will NOT allow the case to open to release a projectile consistent enough from shot-to-shot. ... felix

[John Boy]

I was told that 45s shorten with use...is that true?
yes, that's true. Any brass case will shorten over time. Forget about 22 rim fires - their disposed. It is due to work hardening of the brass. So keep ctg lengths uniform

Let's also think about other factors regarding accuracy:
* Every firearm has a chamber and sealing the case to the chamber (throat in a handgun) increases accuracy. To increase sealing - case necks are annealed
* Uniform throat diameters in revolvers increases accuracy
* Uniform primer pockets & flash holes reamed increases accuracy
* Case mouth chamfering increases accuracy
* Uniform neck tension of the bullet (0.001 to 0.002) increases accuracy
* Primer brisance specific to different flake - ball or extruded powders will increase accuracy for avg velocity and standard deviations
* Uniform COL and crimp will also increase accuracy

Any handgun round that benefits from consistent case length for consistency/accuracy?
So don't just stop with consistent case length

[opos]

This thread is very pertinent to what I'm going through right now....I just purchased a beautiful Old Model Blackhawk in 30 m1 carbine...more of a rifle cartridge but very much alive in Blackhawks for a long time...not exactly a straight case but not a necked case either...a very minor taper. It headspaces on a ridge in the cylinder and I'm told it has a tendency to really grow with any loads that are anywhere near warm. I'm told that case trimming is very necessary to maintain proper headspace as is a really precise taper crimp. The gun is one that is unfired and I'm almost tempted to leave it that way...I only have revolvers and do not deal with cartridges that headspace at the case throat so am relatively inexperienced with that...I also don't do any straight case trimming...I mic the cases and anything that falls outside the length criteria just gets dumped....I load very common straight case calibers (38/357/44 special and mag) and have way more brass than I'll ever use. I'm not an accuracy nut...I just enjoy plinking with decent results so exact trim isn't something I do...I've found that like manufacturer will fall pretty close...I just loaded up some 45 Colt and in with the brass I'd gotten were some Hornady cases....they were really short when compared to the Winchester and RP I also had...so I simply set them aside and since they were within the acceptable "spec" for loading, I just adjusted my seating die a very slight bit and went on and loaded them as a lot. I think that with the .30 carbine in my Blackhawk or with some of the hotter semi automatic loadings I'd have been forced to do some trimming to be able to load the brass lot I was working with.

[Bret4207]

Opos, let me get this right, you THROW AWAY brass rather than trimming? If I send you a flat rate package, would you "throw it" my way?

[daddyseal]

Opos, let me get this right, you THROW AWAY brass rather than trimming? If I send you a flat rate package, would you "throw it" my way?
Same here, Opos....