Navy SEAL Lessons Learned From Aurora Colorado

[gray wolf]

Sorry men I posted this in the wrong place,
Mods please move if you see fit.


Navy SEAL Lessons Learned From Aurora Colorado
sofrep.com/ ^ | 23 July, 2012 | Brandon Webb

As I continue to read about the terrible tragedy in Aurora, Colorado, I can’t help but think there’s some lessons from my time as a Navy SEAL that I can pass on to the average citizen. So here goes…

Don’t Make Yourself an Easy Target

When at sporting events, concerts, and the movies, choose seats that give you a tactical advantage always. What do I mean? Choose seats that allow good and east vantage points and a hasty exit point. Always stack the odds in your favor. It’s the reason I still combat park (back in to a space) and sit with my back to the wall when I’m eating.

Active Shooter Scenario Advice

Take cover and not concealment. Concealment hides, cover hides AND protects. It’s the difference between hiding behind a movie seat or a concrete wall.

Don’t lie there with your eyes closed and get shot. Think and move. A good decision executed quickly is better than a great one never executed. Violence of action, as we call it in the Spec Ops community, will often change the odds in your favor.

For close quarter combat drills we’d draw a gun with someone over 20 feet away running at us. In most cases you can be on someone before they can draw and take a shot. I’m not advocating running straight at someone but if you have the tactical advantage (jam, re-loading, distraction or the shooter isn’t paying attention) then take the shooter down or get the hell out of there. Deal with the situation with your eyes wide open.

In Aurora, the shooter was severely weighted down with armor and his helmet would have also limited his vision. You can use all this to your advantage.

Flashlight anyone? I have one for daily carry and take it everywhere with me. It’s become another extension of me and has diffused at least two potentially violent confrontations in a non-lethal way. I recommend 200+ lumens.

How to use it in this situation?

I would have pulled my high lumens pocket flashlight and blinded this guy. The high powered beam would have taken away his vision for 3-4 seconds, which is an eternity and enough time to flight or fight. There’s also no shame in surviving and getting you and your loved ones out of harm – especially little ones. Be a Hero to your kids and family for surviving, nobody can expect more of you than that. Like we say in Survival Escape Evasion Resistance (SERE) school, “Survive with Honor.”

Concealed Carry

If you’re lucky enough to live in a state like Texas that not only allows concealed carry, but supports the use of deadly force, then train to use it.

Think seriously about whether it’s worth a Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) permit in states where you’re likely to get screwed by a jury if you use it. Example: I can get a CCW in CA but I’m likely screwed if I shoot somebody. The mostly liberal (I’m a registered independent for the record) jury will be sure to have my *** and it’s why I own a dog that’s trained to bite and protect (another good option). Nothing makes me happier then visualizing PETA pitted against other wild-eyed liberals.

Bottom line is that if you own a gun and have it as daily carry, you’d better rehearse your use scenarios both physically and mentally, and the same with the gun in the home. Mental practice is extremely valuable after you’ve mastered the basics. FYI, shooting paper at the local range will not prepare you for a defensive shooting situation. Rehearsing defensive scenarios is the only thing that will prepare you.

For most of you, the best bet is to buy a good tactical flashlight, there are plenty on the market. Specs: At least 200+ lumens, waterproof, LED, and a 3volt lithium battery. Use and carry your light with you at all times. It’s the best non-lethal and practical option available, in my opinion. You can take it anywhere – including on an airplane – and if it’s a high lumen model it will blind people in broad daylight. I can’t recommend this purchase enough.

Learn From an Expert

There are plenty of former Military and Law Enforcement that have great self-defense skills. Just vet your instructor carefully, ask for references and proof of service. While there are many solid instructors out there, there are also a plethora of wannabe Rex-Kwon-Do types who are self-proclaimed experts and worse – lie about their service.

Alter Your Lifestyle, and it May Save Your Life

Avoid opening night and large crowds (e.g. go to Disney World during off-peak) that make easy targets. FYI, most domestic and foreign terrorists want the biggest bang for their buck. They want Yankee stadium sold out and not Padre stadium at 60% capacity. It sucks to live this way sometimes but ask the survivors from Colorado if it’s worth a minor lifestyle change. I say it is, and it’s the main reason I’m watching the Olympics on TV and not attending this year. London is too much of a risk for a variety of reasons that I will not go into on this post.

Don’t Be a Victim

Rehearse emergency scenarios before there’s an emergency, the time to practice is NOT when it’s happening.

The world is a dangerous place these days. Be prepared.

A great book I’d also recommend is, Escape The Wolf by Clinton Emerson.

My condolences to the victims and their families in Aurora Colorado.

-Brandon
Brandon is a former Navy SEAL, and worked as a Special Operations intelligence & security specialist in Iraq during 2006-07. He is also author of the New York Times Best Seller, “The Red Circle”.

[FergusonTO35]

Great post!! I especially like the idea of carrying a flashlight.

[EMC45]

Brilliant! I thought about the flashlight the other day. I have a G2 Surefire and a Surefire 6P. Either one would have blinded a movie theater attacker who's eyes had to adjust to darkness. Like he said temporarily blind with light then shoot or scoot. Take advantage of the opportunity.

[375RUGER]

Good read, thanks for posting that.

[smoked turkey]

Great post. Lots of good information for me to act upon. Thanks for sharing from your vast pool of knowledge. I imagine you have forgotten more than most of us will ever know on this subject.

[gray wolf]

http://flashlightconnection.com/Dereelight-Flashlights/Dereelight-Javelin-c31/
I carry the Javelin, well over 200 lumen and yes it will blind you.
I carry it day or night, Have been in stores when the power went out and the emergency lighting sucked. Could have tripped and broke my neck, or been trampled.
This little light will run on 1, 2,or 3AA batteries and is probly the longest through-ING AA lights. 1 AA fits palm of hand, 2aa big as a Mini mag,
configured for 3 AA is a little longer. high /Med / low or can e had in high mode only
switch is a rear mounted clicky, about 65$$ all set up for three config. mode.
Not cheap, not a toy.

[garym1a2]

Best ideal I heard in a long time

For most of you, the best bet is to buy a good tactical flashlight, there are plenty on the market. Specs: At least 200+ lumens, waterproof, LED, and a 3volt lithium battery. Use and carry your light with you at all times. It’s the best non-lethal and practical option available, in my opinion. You can take it anywhere – including on an airplane – and if it’s a high lumen model it will blind people in broad daylight. I can’t recommend this purchase enough

[Springfield]

I get all my high lumen lights here, MUCH more lumens for the money and size. Waiting on the 3rd GB delivery now.

[Gunslinger1911]

Just a thought on blinding - it's a great tactic (I carry CCW most of the time, high lumen light ALL the time) ....... MOVE !!! once you have hopefully blinded the bad guy - you just made yourself his primary target, he may or may not be able to see you, but he knows the general direction the light came from !!

[L1A1Rocker]

I've carried a Surefire Z2 combatlight since the mid/late 90's. This thread has made me aware of something though. While state of the art when I purchased it (and darn near bank braking expensive at that time); I've realized that it is woefully underpowered by today's standards. Does anyone know of an upgrade kit for this little flashlight?

[gray wolf]

hold your light high and two one side, never in front of your body.
If you don't get his eyes he is not blinded and you now have exposed yourself.
If the threat is such that it is life threatening, light up the target and remove the threat with a well placed shot, do it quickly. This takes a lot of practice.
Don't expect to do it without practice. If the bad guy goes down, move and re-light him for a weapon in hand check, if the threat is still active fire till it's
removed. Some indoor shoots are done over cement or hard flooring,
a miss can seriously ricochet in this kind environment.
An assessment of the danger level will dictate the amount of error you can afford.
Most times it's not to much if any with others present.
If you choose make an attempted to incapacitate the bad guys eyes and do a knock down or tackle maneuver, Light him up and move so you approach from a different angle.
An awful lot to consider, but then an awful lot may be at stake.
In a live or die situation I would try anything I could before I gave up my life willingly to a person trying to deny my next breath.
You can't practice enough, also practice like your life was in the balance, cause it may be.
I see so many shooters at the range, new, seasoned, young and old.
They all do the same thing. They set up a target at 7 0r 10 yards, stand up and shoot the same way round after round.never moving or changing anything.
IMHO this is not the kind of training that ensures you of being the last man standing.
Practice: reloads, clearing jams, moving, week hand, strong hand,
shooting from cover, multiple targets,
Train your brain--while you train your aim
If your not ready to end someones life in a second,
you have two options--leave the gun home, or leave it in the holster.
That's the way I see it, and the way have I have been trained, it's never left me.
I have had to return fire and I am still standing, thank God.
It's not fun and something that will never leave you,
it may cost you some sleepless nights also.
I am by far a know it all and I sure don't try to act like one or come across like one.
Just sayin and trying to be helpful.
A good mantra is ** I will not loose this fight**

Sam

[leftiye]

I'd just love to hear about one of these subhumans getting first blinded by a flashlight, and then beaten into quadraplegic condition.

[Catshooter]

Not a bad posting, but I can see two issues with it.

Cover? In a theatre? There is none, and he reportedly targeted people who were trying to leave (get behind a concrete wall).

Of all the things talked about, guns, training, cover, blah, blah, blah, the one thing that is the most important of all gets left out completely.

Willingness! There was alot of people there, one guy had his CCW with him and the perp was loaded down with weapons. The only thing missing was someone willing to kill him! He had a good willingness to kill others, and look where it got him. He won (if you can call it that).

Just like surprise is the greatest element of attack, willingness is the greatest element of any fight.

I'd rather have one 10 year old who was truly willing to kill someone like that shooter at my side in a gunfight then the last 1000 firearm course grads, none of whom were willing.

Willingness to kill the opponent almost always prevails. Alertness is next. Training is a distant third.

Just my .02.


Cat

[fecmech]

From the news reports I read the guy had a bullet proof vest, throat and groin protector. Basically outfitted like a swat team entry guy. Taking him on with a handgun would have probably got you killed quick. Unless you were very astute and picked up on the equipment and realized the only place you could shoot him was his face you were beat! The average CCW shooter in my experience has all he can do to hit center mass let alone take a head shot under that kind of pressure. The only chance that anyone had IMO is when the gun jammed or him changing mags or reloading and then being alive and close enough to jump him. Other than that the only option is get out of Dodge!

[smokeywolf]

gray wolf,
Very informative and very well written. I've carried a light ever since the Mag-Light was the state-of-the-art. I've gone through the halogens, the xenons, and now the high-output lasing diodes.
Always have 2 or 3 lights in each vehicle, a half dozen in the house, 1 in each range bag, 1 in each med/trauma bag.
Been backing in and sitting with my back to the wall since my security/bodyguard/LE days. Always plan & check escape routes.
Willingness to take a life is a good point made by both you,
"If your not ready to end someones life in a second,
you have two options--leave the gun home, or leave it in the holster."
and catshooter.

smokeywolf

[Multigunner]

People are very vulnerable when rushing for an exit, unless you get there first you are truly screwed. Your back to the shooter in an inviting mass of helpless targets who are as likely to crush the life out of you as you are to get shot.
Flash fires in theatres and nightclubs, and fans crushed to death during soccer riots have proven that over and over again.

If you have a flashlight and a pistol, its far easier to hit the shooter with a pistol bullet than to focus a beam on the shooters eyes.
The instant the flashlight goes on you are the primary target. You'd possibly save someone elses life by distracting the shooter, but anyone in your immediate area, including your family if they were present would catch the next burst of fire.

Theatre seats would be unlikely to stop a 5.56, but might destablise the bullet so it doesn't penetrate the next few seats. One seat is no protection, but several rows of seats might help, by slowing down the bullet enough that a wound wasn't fatal if nothing else.
Some of the older steel framed and backed theatre seats would probably stop or deflect a 9mm.
When test firing my S&W at a dump site I fired into the seat of an up turned "captains" swivel chair.
I was suprised to find that the steel plates of the swivel had stopped 9mm FMJ cold at a distance of less than 50 feet. These plates are low grade steel, but are fairly well tempered and work hardened by the stamping process. The thick wood of the seat had a lot to do with it.

Using the body of a previous victim as cover can work. Depending on the ammo type. Some 5.56 will tumble wildly and not exit a body, AP and some of the more stable heavy bullets will pass through a body most of the time.
If we are in this sort of situation and you are wounded, don't be suprized if I offer to hoist you on my back as I prepare to run for my life.
In any case whatever slows a bullet decreases its energy.
While firing the old style 55 grain 5.56 at various barriers we set up a sillhouette target behind an old stump. A bullet that passed through less than three inches of the side of the stump shed its core in rat shot sized dropets that barely penetrated the cardboard target. The empty and flattened bullet jacket hit sideways and fell to the ground behind the cardboard.
This was at very close range. Energy was at its highest and stability at its lowest that close to the muzzle. Had the bullet struck flesh before passing through that small amount of wood it would have made a hideous wound. The three inches of old dry wood turned a lethal hit into what would have been a very minor wound, if indeed the jacket and tiny fragments could penetrate a thick winter coat or leather jacket,which I doubt. They started using heavier 5.56 bullets with steel penetrators for good reason.
According to the U S military urban combat manual regular plate glass can deflect a 5.56 bullet if the angle of impact is 45 degrees or less. The glass will break but the bullet won't go where it was aimed. Of course if another ten rounds follows the first they will be unimpeded.

[EMC45]

The willingnes has got to be there like Catshooter said. There was a boy in AZ a few weeks back who shot an intruder at his house. He was 14. He was defending his siblings against violence. He acted. That's first. The body armor issue has come up in a few discussions on this. I think a center mass hit would definitely get his attention, specially if you followed it up with a few more. Headshots are feasible, if your mental abilities will allow in a time of great stress. The idea of pelvis shots comes to mind as well though. Thunder Ranch teaches pelvic shots. Once broken the pelvis cannot support the body's weight and the shooter will come crashing down. Couple that with the fact a femoral artery hit may subsequently take place and you have a recipe for incapacitation. He may be full of hell and the devil, but when you start breaking bones and blood starts pouring forth it has a tendency to alter your priorities. I do believe if someone would have countered his assault with gunfire he would have turned into a scared little nerd that he was. Same thing with Columbine. Incoming has the right of way. If they are in range so are you!

[bowfin]

Catshooter,

Your post reminds me of the lines in "The Shootist" (John Wayne)


Gillom Rogers: "Mr. Books, my grouping of shots was tighter than yours. How is it you've killed so many men?"

John Bernard Books: "First thing is, that target wasn't shooting back at you. Second, most men at that last second will flinch; [B]I won't."

[Multigunner]

Like as not any return fire whether it struck or even came near would have sent the shooter scurrying. He gave no resistence when officers who could shoot back showed up.

[smoked turkey]

This is a very good thread. One that has the wife and I thinking and talking out loud about what we would do and what we should do. There is a lot to absorb here. Her and I will spend some time sorting it all out and one thing I am sure of at this time is that there are a couple of good bright flashlights in our immediate future. Thanks to all.

[Multigunner]

If all thats handy is an electronic camera flash that too might be useful.

[canyon-ghost]

From the news reports I read the guy had a bullet proof vest, throat and groin protector. Basically outfitted like a swat team entry guy. Taking him on with a handgun would have probably got you killed quick.

Maybe, what's the effect of a .45 slamming into body armor?? Wouldn't that have slowed him down some?

[trooperdan]

Springfield, did you intend to include a different link? I saw only leather gear at the link provided.

[John in WI]

WI just passed CCW a few months ago. The permits are flying off the shelf, but I have no idea how many people actually carry.

I had the discussion with a co-worker about the incident in CO. Criminals typically pick on people that are supposed to be victims. (ie, pick on people that are alone, smaller, intoxicated...). And if the "victim" does anything except roll over and die, the thug often times loses his nerve.

I can see where even something like a flashlight to the eyes would make an attacker think "this isn't supposed to be happening! You're supposed to run screaming for the exit!" It might buy you a few seconds, and that few seconds could save a lot of people.

It's a spooky world but after this I feel exactly like the first time I flew after 911. That feeling of "it's a whole new ball game". And praying that (God forbid) something happens, if I die I die swinging, shooting, clawing, doing SOMETHING.

My dad did 2 tours in Viet Nam and I asked him how you know what the right decision is. And he said "you don't--you make your move, and you take your move".

I just can't imagine the unbelievable stress and confusion that one feels in a situation like that. Watching the news casts truly made me feel ill. Using that level of firepower against totally uprepared civilians.

Maybe what was even spookier than the rifle, shotgun, and handgun, were the fact he was also using armor. As if he was anticipating resistance. The superior firepower and element of surprise would have made return fire a difficult choice. Not impossible--but I can imagine it being one of those situations that's over before you really know what happened.

[rintinglen]

The one thing that training never gives you is the divine ability to immediately know what is actually happening at the instant it occurs. One of my pet peeves about the monday-morning quarterbacking that goes on after an incident like this is the refusal to understand that decisions made in a crisis situation are based on incomplete, often contradictory, bits of information. There is little or no time for reflection, certainly not enough for careful consideration, you have seconds to react. Your reaction will be based on your appreciation of the situation, which may be as far removed from the reality of what is actually transpiring as lightning is from a lightning bug. You may react as you have been trained, provided that your training matches the circumstances you find yourself in. More likely, you will respond according to your assessment of the situation, based on your life experiences and expectations.

"I thought it was some kind of publicity stunt." "I didn't know what was happening."

The previous quotations were taken from survivor statements to reporters.

If you don't know what is happening, and you think its not real, what kind of action do you think you will take? Or rather, how long will you take to reassess and react? It is worth thinking about in advance. Damned few of us get the extensive realistic training to prepare us mentally for such a situation. It may reek of paranoia, but it is beneficial to constantly ask yourself, "what if?"

My heart goes out to the parents and loved ones of all who suffered at this evil monster's hands. May he rot in Hades.

[Lonegun1894]

I know how this sounds, but bear with me for a second. There have been several posts saying that the body armor may have saved the turd, and possibly gotten the good guy injured or killed for shooting the said turd. I know you're right, and not trying to start an argument, but personally, in this kind of situation, what do you really have to lose? If you shoot, you will draw his attention and possibly get shot if your fire proves to be ineffective. If you don't shoot, he may run out of ammo, jam, decide he's done enough, etc, or you may live a few seconds or minutes longer while you get to watch him kill others around you, which may very well include your loved ones, before you die anyway. I know what my choice is. Personally, I say move away from your loved ones, and anyone else if at all possible (because you just volunteered yourself and those next to you to be bullet magnets), take offensive action to the best of your ability, and may the chips land where they may. To paraphrase something that has been said several times in this post, a good decision acted on NOW beats a great decision that you may not live long enough to carry out later.

As to calibers, I personally carry mostly .357s and .45s, so I prefer serious defense guns over "mouse guns", but any thing that makes the turd leak hydraulic fluid is prefereable to letting him continue his killing spree. In this situation, I would love to have something like a .308/.30-06, or at least a 12ga slug gun, but that doesn't mean I will lay down and die because all I have is a pocketknife(not at all likely) and refuse to use it. Use whatever you have and do your best.

As far as the quarterbacking, here is my take on that also. Anyone who does ANYTHING towards stopping the turd, did the right thing as far as I'm concerned. We all have the rest of our lives to chew this over on what to do different, but the person in the situation was actually there and is the best judge in my opinion. As long as they did something, it was the right move, even if it was unsuccessful. Even an unsuccessful attempt may have bought somebody else time to get out, or even better, get someone else in position to take out the turd and actually stop the killing.

[fecmech]

Maybe, what's the effect of a .45 slamming into body armor?? Wouldn't that have slowed him down some?

In my post I was not saying that a CCW carrier should not have acted in that situation, only what I thought would be the likely result of that person acting. We will never know "what if" because "what if" didn't happen so it's all speculation at this point. All we can hope for is that we as individuals do the right thing if we are ever in such a terrible situation.

[gray wolf]

in the above, A little good stuff mixed in with some not so good stuff.
If some one points a gun at me he goes down, if he was part of some stunt
or part of some act, they can put that on his tomb stone.
train like your life depended on it, if all you do is shoot targets at 10 yards
standing in the same position--then that's what you will be good at.
Like I said: train your brain while you train your aim.
We carry to defend in any situation, if you have to think about it you haven't trained enough. If you think your not up to task train harder.
Some folks have expressed interest in getting a GOOD DEPENDABLE carry light.
Men don't think a light in your pocket and a pistol on your belt means your ready
Perhaps after serious training with it.
It comes down to:
I am good enough to take action
I am not up to task
I do not have what it takes for the job at hand.
I can not get behind this guy and put one under the back of his head gear.
in order to remove his face.
I don't see any harm in someone not taking action, it's a horrifying thing to have to do.
But I don't think it's wise to go out thinking you can when you can't.

[Whiterabbit]

Willingness! There was alot of people there, one guy had his CCW with him and the perp was loaded down with weapons. The only thing missing was someone willing to kill him! He had a good willingness to kill others, and look where it got him.

I wouldn't have shot. Firing squads don't stand in circles. The potential for collateral damage (killing an innocent by mistake) is huge.

[merlin101]

Maybe, what's the effect of a .45 slamming into body armor?? Wouldn't that have slowed him down some?

I thought of that too, one or two hits in the chest with a .45 and I thinks he's going be hurtin , vest or no vest. That would give ya time to walk up and make sure he didn't resiste.

[David2011]

My Mother, who won't even go to the range has started making sure my Dad is carrying any time they leave the house. I gave him one of the excellent group buy LED lights as a gift. Even if she won't shoot, she at least "gets it." They're both in their late 70s.

Earlier this year I started carrying a group buy flashlight and a good knife, well sharpened, when I couldn't carry a gun- places like the day job. Away from work I carry all three.

David

[David2011]

If all thats handy is an electronic camera flash that too might be useful.

Yes, that works. I was going home from photographing a wedding late one night when some joker started messing with me on the freeway. I was cruising along minding my own business, at the speed limit in an appropriate lane, somewhere in the middle. Traffic was very light. He kept riding my bumper and flashing his brights. I opened my camera bag which was on the seat beside me. I turned the commercial grade potato masher type flash on and flipped it to manual so it would give the maximum burst. When he pulled up beside me I held the flash up, closed my eyes momentarily and flashed it. When I looked around the car was slowing down and pulling off to the side of the freeway. Situation resolved without force.

David

[Catshooter]

Turns out the turd wasn't wearing body armor, it was just a tactical vest and the media misp-reported (hard to imagine the media getting it wrong).

David, that was funny and clever. Good job.


Cat

[HiVelocity]

Great post.

I'm a CCW and retired LE; I won't go into all the "what if's" but just tell everyone that equipment is crucial to surviving any incident. The photo below is but one item I carry daily. Its a Fenix L0D flashlight. Don't let the small size fool you.........lol! I carried it as a back-up while on duty. It has served me well when others failed. You just never know.

Learn your equipment well, practice often. HAVE A PLAN!

HV

[W.R.Buchanan]

This is a great thread and there is alot of good information.

The most useful points I see here are flashlight, willing and plan.

I had never really thought too much about using a flash light as a offensive tool. However even the cheap LED ones I got from Costco have sharp scolloped edges that you could gouge big chunks of meat out of somebodies face with. I even brought this to the attention of my wife who usually poopoos my survival lectures. She liked the idea.

The first rule of gun safety is all guns are loaded.

The second is never point a gun and anything you don't intend to destroy.

This brings up the subject of "willing" IF you are not willing to kill someone then you shouldn't point a gun at them. If you're not going to point a gun at them, then you might just as well leave it at home or in the car.

I don't have a CCW, I don't carry a gun, I sometimes have one in my car but that is not going to do much good in a movie theatre.

The idea that you would carry a gun daily and not be willing to kill someone just doesn't compute with me. Just an extra 2-3lbs hung on your belt to carry around just for show? If you're not willing to use it then you are just wasting energy carrying it around. I guess if you were left leaning it could bring you back up to level.

Would consider carrying a NAA Pug in my pocket as a last resort "I'm cornered here's a face full" type of gun but since I live in CA I'd probably go to prison for the rest of my life If I ever used it or got caught with it. My biggest concern when shooting someone wouldn't be the killing of the guy, I could care less about him. My biggest concern is will I go to jail!

I like the plan part of the discussion. Part of the training at Front Sight is "awareness training" which in my case just enhanced my normal Situational Awareness. Awareness of your surroundings is the best and simplest plan. Becoming aware of your surroundings is what you must practice constantly.Total avoidance of confrontation is the best defense, and total avoidance can only be achieved by knowing what's going on and what to do when it is necessary to do it.

I normally scan a parking lot for issues when I get out of the car, I sit with my back to the door or I am looking over my shoulder frequently anytime I can't cover my 6, and anytime I hear a raised voice or other loud noise in a crowded area I'm on full alert. I am very aware of what is around me most all of the time.

We ate at a Chick Fil A in Oxnard CA yesterday and the tension in the place was high as there were a bunch of idiots protesting outside,(there is only two types of people who show up at these protests,,,, Gays and idiots, and there aint that many Gays!) I had my route out the door figured out within 30 seconds of entering the place. I had to sit wth my back to the action and my friend asked why I was looking over my shoulder so often, DUH?

This is just how I am, and that is because, that is how I have made myself. I have been shot at exactly one time in my life, and luckily he missed. He didn't get second shot off because he was blinded by the sparks flying out of my **** as I vacated the area. ( Angeles City Philippines 1972)

I vowed never to be caught in that situation again. My mind is my best defense! And being aware of your surroundings ALL of the TIME is the key to survival.

Oh and just so you know, I have already worked out the lines in the sand that would result in me shooting someone. Once those lines are crossed I am willing,,, instantly. Everyone of us who shoots needs to confront these ideas in advance and work out what your limits are in advance so that when something happens you already have a plan in place. You don't have time to consider the morality of a sitiuation when your life is on the line. You have to act decisively, immediately.

I reaffirm my limits and my plans, everytime some nut case goes off and kills a bunch of innocent people.

It's just too bad they don't go off on more deserving targets like a bunch of politicians.

Randy

[trooperdan]

This is an excellent thread! I also haven't thought much about carrying a tactical light even though I have a CCW permit and carry often as I can. What light would be a good choice for this purpose? I have a number of the small LED $20 models, just for general utility but, while very bright, I don't think they are in the "dazzle" catagory. Is there a model that will do the job for under $75?

[Got-R-Did]

Ret. L.E.O. here as well as Firearms Instructor for my Dept. Best thread I have seen anywhere in a long time, and glad to see the input of all the participants. Even the Members who haven't weighed in but have read all the posts will take away valuable information. On the issue of whether the "orb of fecal matter" indeed had on body armor or not, a shot to the groin/hip area will still yield the results desired of destabilizing him, and likewise a shot to either leg/foot will certainly put him on the ground. Ever seen the backface deformation of a ballistic vest or the injury to a body torso after a bullet strike? Looks and feels like someone of prodigious physical attributes has struck you with the end of a Louisville Slugger.
Thanks to all that have reinforced the concept of a flashlight, I could not stress this tactical advantage enough to my recruits in the face of "night sights/lasers" and the like back then. Identifying and disorienting the target is paramount and will indeed buy you precious seconds that may save your life.
Keep them coming Folks!
Got-R-Did.

[gray wolf]

http://flashlightconnection.com/Dereelight-Flashlights/Dereelight-Javelin-c31/
I have mentioned the link and the light above in other post.
I use this light all the time. It is very powerful 250 lumen out the front, not just at the emitter. It is as small as a Mad-light Mini mag and only uses two A A batteries.
I also have the 1AA part and the 3 AA part. these parts screw on and off very easily. They convert the light from a 2 AA two a 1 or 3 A A
The one AA configuration is almost as strong as the 2 AA, just a little shorter run time. It has a belt clip for carry, set up as one AA it fits in a shirt pocket.
This light has the longest shining beam of any AA light.
I can light up a target at 50 yards with it, the beam is a good 75 yard beam.
It's clicky with the push button switch on the back, high,med, and low.
Or it can be had with high only. I recommend this light for every day carry.
I believe it can be put in your mail box all set up for 1,2and 3 AA for about 65$$
It's not a toy. I had mine in 4 days from Ca.
The important thing to remember about this light is you do not have to use the
rechargeable lithium batteries that can explode if not handled correctly.
Not to say that the 123 lithium batteries that you do not recharge are not safe. for the most part they are, but can be costly for good reliable ones.

[fecmech]

I have the group buy flashlight from Wilgen I believe it's 750 lumens. I showed off to my SIL by driving down a country dirt road with my lights off using only the flash light. Bought one for my daughter at Christmas, she calls it the "Bat Light"! I think it would be pretty hard to look at.

[MtGun44]

I always have a high power LED flashlight on me. Anywhere except work I have a
Colt Commander .45 ACP on me 90%, 9mm 10%. He was apparently at the front of
the theater, and I would have expended all my ammo on him, if necessary.

Now that we know he did not have armor, it doesn't make any difference, but it
is reported that a .45 ACP center chest hit on a soft vest will still take you out of
the fight.

Bill

[Artful]

There was alot of people there, one guy had his CCW with him and the perp was loaded down with weapons.

Cat

Cat, can you provide a link to that part of the story, I have not seen any story saying an armed CCW holder was in that theater with the shooter.

[Artful]

From the news reports I read the guy had a bullet proof vest, throat and groin protector. Basically outfitted like a swat team entry guy.

That's the problem with our news media - they don't know and don't care to know the difference in what is reality
- if it looks like a maching gun it is one.

- if it looks like swat gear it's bullet proof (whatever that means as NO VEST will stop everything)

- from what I'm finding he was wearing Blackhawk Urban Assault Vest (black), Blackhawk Omega Elite Triple Pistol Mag Pouch (black), Blackhawk Omega Elite M16 Mag Pouch (black) shopped at online retailer tacticalgear.com

http://tacticalgear.com/blackhawk-urban-assault-vest?utm_source=gs&utm_medium=sce&gclid=CKCH8qz6vbECFQQaQgodsWkA2g
http://tacticalgear.com/data/default/images/catalog/325/blackhawk-urban-assault-vest-black.jpg


Made of heavy-duty nylon for maximum strength and durability
Adjustable for length and girth; up to 6" length, add'l 32" girth
Emergency cut away shoulder strap system and robust drag handle
Side release buckles for rapid wear
Two large internal zippered map pouches
Exterior Blackhawk Hydration reservoir pouch (reservoir not included)
Adjustable flap magazine pouches for tall or short magazines
Shoulder D-rings for accessory attachment
Radio pouch with cover flap and wire routing
Four M-16/M4 pouches hold eight magazines
Hook & loop strips for ID patch on front and back
Belt loops secure vest to any web belt (not included)

per this report
http://www.itstactical.com/centcom/news/deconstructing-the-aurora-colorado-shooting-and-what-we-as-responsible-citizens-could-have-done-to-help/


Aurora Police Chief Dan Oates is quoted as stating that some 25 officers were on scene within a minute and a half. Oates applauded his officers for being able to pick up on a particular piece of equipment that helped responding officers distinguish Holmes as the shooter and not a SWAT Officer. He declined to get into specifics......

If you notice in this video, ABC improperly calls the Blackhawk Assault vest purchased a “bullet proof vest” when the screen clearly shows the make of the assault vest from Blackhawk and even displays “Assault Vest” on the screen. It makes me question whether Holmes was truly wearing body armor or an armored helmet.

....

From reading what I could of eyewitness accounts, the scene was one of chaos and panic; A dark theater erupting with gunfire and tear gas. One particular account I want to share comes from 22-year-old Jennifer Seeger, an EMT student and one of the few people I’ve read about thus far with a sheepdog mentality.

Jennifer described Holmes as wearing a gas mask, a kevlar vest and appearing like he was on the SWAT team. Her details are very well presented in her interview as she describes Holmes entering through the emergency exit at the right side of the theater. His gun came within inches of her seat, which was almost the first he came to as he entered. As he passed her on his way up the stairs, she jumped into the aisle telling people that that when he runs up the stairs, they needed to crawl out.

http://www.itstactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Karl-Gehring-The-Denver-Post-AP.jpg

Listen to the media then double check on them... They get it wrong so often you'd think they were issued instructions on how to mess it up.

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pDpll5Bhd67tWUtHS8IfiOTTdC6H2eOVPfRnWYhqggPtZB1t tXAVbCkxBH8nQ7Pv3ZdzLGV9gYMhP6bwQF6eB5w/77d3d70b.jpg

[Multigunner]

Effect of a pistol round on someone wearing body armor varies, some tests show a .44 Magnum barely rocking the subject who knew it was coming, while a completely unexpected hit from a .38 sent the subject down on his rear yelping in pain.

Most light concealable soft armor won't prevent internal injuries and bleeding if the bullet hits a spot where a hard punch would do the same to unprotected flesh.
A vest just reduces the vulnerable surface area, a slug in the neck can be more effective than a center of mass hit. Depending on whether you hit spine, cut the windpipe, or major arteries, which the neck is full of.
A respectable sized bullet in any part of the face can mess up a mans plans, and may carry on to hit grey matter or send bone splinters in that direction.
A bullet in the groin can bleed a man out fast with loss of conciousness coming fairly quickly. Broken hip joint is also a good manstopper, anchored and in agony. Neither would ensure no return fire, but would greatly reduce the danger.

[9.3X62AL]

My sole objection to the original text's content is its insistence that California is universally opposed to armed citizens firing upon armed assailants. There are 58 counties in this State, all of whom have their own District Attorney's Office that make the call on prosecutions. Only a dozen or fewer counties here are what I would call "armed citizen negative". I know damn well that my old employer (Riverside County) is very fair and balanced, as is my current county of residence (Kern). All that aside--and I am a CA CCW permit holder--give me a jury trial by 12 over 6 pallbearers ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

Aurora, Colorado--another armed holocaust facilitated by the pre-plowed killing fields provided by virtue of gun-free zones and limited citizen CCW.

[Catshooter]

Artful,

Sorry, I can't find it. It was reported on MSNs homepage a few days after the shooting. If I recall, the guy said on Facebook that he was armed and there during the shooting so somebody busted him for it.


Cat

[W.R.Buchanan]

9.3x62AL: I live in Ventura county and I have a decent chance of beating a shooting wrap if I'm in the right. I know the DA!

I Santa Barbara County to the North of me i'M GOIN' TO JAIL!

In LA county it depends on who you shoot and what LE agency shows up first. if the sheriffs show up first you have a decent chance. If the LAPD shows and you have shot a minority you're in big trouble. Both from the legal system and the friends and relatives of he deceased. If you were let go you'd have to leave the state.

The rural counties don't represent much of a threat, It's the bay area counties the liberal counties and LA (all on the coast) that are the places you don't want to get caught. They like to make examples so others will cowtow like good little slaves.

Randy

[9.3X62AL]

Artful,

Sorry, I can't find it. It was reported on MSNs homepage a few days after the shooting. If I recall, the guy said on Facebook that he was armed and there during the shooting so somebody busted him for it.


Cat

Cat--clarify, please.......does "busted" mean "arrested", or were disparaging remarks registered, or ?

A darkened theater full of patrons is about as bad a shooting scene as can be imagined. Talk about "bad background"......taking this info as it indicates, the decision to not counter-fire in absence of a perceivable and hittable target was wisely chosen.

These small-sized but powerful light sources are something to include in my pocket contents. Thanks for sharing these items, folks.

Randy, you are quite correct.

[Artful]

These small-sized but powerful light sources are something to include in my pocket contents. Thanks for sharing these items, folks.


look up Tactical LED Flashlight - something like Klarus XT11 600 Lumen with it's strobe feature could have made a big difference in this case.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Interesting post, I like the light idea very much and keep a tiny powerful light next to my bed stand. That light should go with me everywhere.

My reaction to the news of this shooting was a little different and I’ll throw in my two cents worth. Tear gas makes it so you can’t see. If you can’t see you can’t shoot. I carry a 1911 everywhere I go but had I been in that theater I wouldn’t have been able to see. That’s a real problem.
I possess an advanced SWAT certificate and was on a SWAT team for ten years. My time in the gas house is no doubt less than a Navy Seal’s, all my firearms training was shooting with a gas mask on. I can function in gas but can’t see. I shoot with goobers coming out of my nose and throat but not if my eyes are burning. I don’t have a solution to this problem yet.

I retired from the SWAT team ten years ago and am still serving as a full time peace officer.

[trooperdan]

I'll bet the "tear gas" in reality was a smoke bomb used by pain-ballers, nothing more! BTW, tear gas is classed as a "weapon of mass destruction" in NC due to it's ability to panic a crowd!

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Smoke bomb, interesting thought. I've heard of law enforcement teams putting on our gas masks and make a big production out of "Deploying the Gas!" to dispurse a crowd when in reality it's just fire retardant. The greenies really run but the crowds catch on quick.

[9.3X62AL]

look up Tactical LED Flashlight - something like Klarus XT11 600 Lumen with it's strobe feature could have made a big difference in this case.

Thanks, Artful--much appreciated.

[Artful]

So far this story from Colorado is serving as good training to not believe the media at all.

The killer's bullet proof equipment was just mall ninja tacticool nylon

- The illegal machine guns was a legally purchased AR, Glocks and a pump shotgun

- Three of the suspect's four weapons were found in his white Hyundai parked at the back entrance to the theater; one of the handguns was found in the theater.
other reports were caught with guns in hand - which is it?

- The poison gas is probably smoke

- His tea party connection was someone else

- a former member of the “Black Bloc” faction of the Occupy movement have caused considerable debate and denial by the left.

- Internet personality is mainly found AdultFriendFinder
and he wanted to keep in contact with adult internet friends...from prison in advance of crime.

- His purchases seem to have been funded by National Institutes of Health grant money

- was being treated by a female psychiatrist at the university where he studied. I have not seen if she proscribed med's for him but she had proscribed med's for family and friends.

- Reports of two gas masks found - but still saying he's a lone wolf ????

- Colorado professor Chad Kautzer launched the online petition at Change.org in an effort to help “protect the health and safety of University of Colorado employees and students.” by banning CCW in Colorado. Professor Kautzer teaches philosophy at the University of Colorado, the same school shooter James Holmes was attending for his graduate degree.

- and this was all timed for the UN vote on gun restrictions...and Big O's election campaign

- Now Magazine/assualt weapon ban added to the Cybersecurity Bill (S. 3414) by Senator Chuckie Schumer (NY D)

Maybe I am going to need some tin foil

[9.3X62AL]

I'm not quite ready to don a tinfoil sombrero, but some of Artful's points do add up to questions, at minimum.

[Catshooter]

Al,

Sorry, by busted I meant arrested.

I agree, a theater is a horrible place to need to shoot an active shooter. The thing that struck me when I gave it some thought, besides the darkness, is most theaters have a fairly steep slope to them.

I (when I go to a movie, pretty rare) always sit in the middle of the middle.

So there I am, watching the movie, in complete happy condition white and this bonehead shoots the ceiling a couple of times and then starts shooting people.

I draw, aim and then just as the hammer falls the dude in front of me stands up and ruins my perfectly executed shot with the back of his head. Of course I suppose I could use the dude I just killed as cover since there ain't any of that around in the middle of a theatre. Oh joy.

Scary stuff.

Artful,

Truth and the media meet only by accident and only if the truth doesn't interfere too much with their agenda. I mean think about it, you know how they portray us gun nuts, is that you? It sure ain't me and I'm sure it's not you either.


Cat

[9.3X62AL]

What on earth was the CCW guy arrested for? Kinda surreal, if true.

[Artful]

Artful,

Truth and the media meet only by accident and only if the truth doesn't interfere too much with their agenda. I mean think about it, you know how they portray us gun nuts, is that you? It sure ain't me and I'm sure it's not you either.


Cat

Problem is there's too many accidents in some of these stories so mathematically it seems to defy the odds.

googlage of CCW holder arrested in theatre shows up...

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21190511/man-arrested-bringing-gun-into-thornton-movie-theater



NOT really CCW as he open carried it in on Sunday after Fridays shooting...


A 48-year-old man who was arrested Sunday night at a Thornton, CO movie theater where he wore a holstered weapon said he was simply exercising his right to bear arms.

James G. Mapes was arrested at about 10:15 p.m. Sunday at the Cinebarre Movie Theater, 1001 N. Grant St., after he openly carried a handgun into the theater, Thornton police said in a media release.

"The subject's possession of the firearm caused alarm to the theater staff and fellow movie patrons," police said in the release.

Mapes, during a telephone interview on Monday morning, said he's lived in the metro area for nine years and he's gone to movies at Cinebarre dozens of times carrying a "full-sized pistol" both openly and concealed. The Northglenn resident said he's had a concealed weapons permit, issued by Arapahoe County Sheriff's Office, since 2003.

"I was a threat to no one, I didn't threaten anybody," Mapes said of his armed theater attendance.

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/43-off-topic-discussions/294515-ccw-holder-arrested-open-carrying-into-movie-theater-open-carry-county.html



THORNTON, Colo. — Some would argue that this is not the time to bring a gun into a theater. But police said James Mapes told them it is exactly the time, telling authorities he brought a gun into a Thornton movie theater Sunday for his own protection.

His handgun was strapped to his waist — he was wearing it so others could see it.

A cell phone video captures Mapes being arrested for possession of a weapon in a liquor and beer establishment, a misdemeanor. Police said he was cooperative and emphasized his right to bear arms.

Technically, police said Mapes was arrested because he was carrying his weapon in a way that caused alarm and fear for others. He received a summons and was later released.

Once theater managers learned of the gun, they quickly evacuated several theaters in the building. About 30 people were affected. Witnesses said it was a frightening ordeal with the Aurora shooting still fresh in their minds.

http://cinebarre.com/faqs

I found nothing about firearms policy - "just all patrons under 18 must be accompanied by a parent or legal guardian.*" due to serving adult beverages and no smoking

[9.3X62AL]

OK, then. Kinda stupid, two days after Aurora to open-carry a firearm into a theater full of sheeple. Better to have concealed the piece as permitted and gone about his business, methinks. Maybe he got his 15 minutes of fame in this manner, but it leaves me scratching my head.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I am also looking at the little "stinger tool" in the Dillon catalog. ONe of those along with a hot flashlight might be a life saver. You blind the guy, rush him and then beat the S*&^ out of him with the stinger tool which is basically one hard knuckle.

This seems to be something you could feasibly do if you were cornered. The Stinger is $10

Randy

[dangerranger]

I'm another that believes that this turd would have cut and run given any resistance.
One of his areas of study was peoples behavior in a crisis. I'm thinking that he will eventually spill that this was just a lab experiment to prove a point!

Ive taken a few target shooter friends hunting and I have to agree that they don't start out as very good hunters. Most just stare through the sights at the animal for a few seconds. It takes some training to get them to pull the trigger as soon as they are on target. I cant remember not hunting, So I don't remember having to learn this myself. What kind of training would prepare you for that kind of event? The closest thing I can think of would be paint ball where some one is actively shooting back at you. DR

[Multigunner]

A gun on the hip can scare folks, most especially after such an incident. If Mapes has a CCW he should have kept his thing in his pants.
Its not at all illegal to own and carry an axe, but if you walk into an establishment full of people who are a bit leery due to a brutal multiple victim axe murder in the same sort of establishment with an axe over your shoulder then someones just looking for attention.
We don't need callous idiots stirring things up by strutting around with a pistol on their belt to get attention.

A handgun is no less scarey looking than a chain saw to most people, and no more suitable for display in public places than a chainsaw would be.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have a friend who quit the Kern County Sherriffs Dept because the was told he could not wear his uniform to a Community College night class he was required to attend or carry a gun.

It made the Mexican students in the class uneasy!

He was told to either change or he would be fired. He couldn't beileive that his department would cow tow to a public school. He was a Sargent with 18 years on the job. He lost his pension and all benefits, but he kept his principals

He quit and became the Head Range Master at Front Sight.

Randy

[Artful]

It made the Mexican students in the class uneasy!


Do you mean American Latino's or do you really mean Mexican citizen's in the US going to school (and of course were they here legally would be my next question)

:roll:

I think I would have let them fire me and sued them for wrongful dismissal - then taken my winnings and moved on. :???:

[W.R.Buchanan]

Art: No, Americans of Mexican decent. Bakersfield is where he was.

I said the same thing, but he had quit years before I met him, and there was really nothing he could do.

He was also offered the Rangemaster job at FS before he quit so it wasn't like he was just walking off a cliff. He had a place to go.

But still if he hadn't been forced to choose, he would have made his 20 years.

Randy