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View Full Version : 38+p for CLOSE range deer?



GrizzLeeBear
05-05-2007, 12:28 PM
I have been looking at getting one of the 4" fixed sighted Ruger gp100 for a general range / woods gun. I love the looks/balance of these guns. The 4" fixed sighted ones only come in 38 spl. (if there are any 357 mag. ones out there, they are very hard to find). Most of the time it will get shot for general range fun, but I thought it would make a good backup to tote along in the woods for small game, etc. at close range. Shooting deer would be limited to like 25 yds or less (or for "coupe de grace" type work). You know, for those time when they walk up right in your lap. Being a Ruger it should easily be capable of handling a max. 38 load. It looks to me that the Lee 158 rfn with it big meplat moving at about 950 fps would make a pretty good very short range deer load. Like I said, this would not be a primary deer hunting weapon, just a backup to a rifle, or for other critters that came along that I didn't want to blow to pieces with the rifle, or a deer that comes in REAL close. Kind of a "target of oportunity" thing.

p.s. I know the .357 is an option with a adjustable sighted gun, or a 3" fixed sighted gp100, but I just wanted to find out if anyone has any experience with this kind of thing with "hot" 38 spl. loads.

Char-Gar
05-05-2007, 07:34 PM
It's been done before.

Larry Gibson
05-05-2007, 09:02 PM
First deer I shot with a handgun was with a S&W M&P with 6" barrel using regular Peters 158 gr RN. But that was back when I was a young dumb kid and didn't know you couldn't do it. Most of were quite happy with our .41, .44s and regular .45s for hunting then Ross Seifreid (SP) published that article about shooting water buffalo down in Australia with 300 or gr bullets out of his revolver and now you can't kill a white tail without 300+ gr bullets out of mondo hand cannons. But since you know your limitations and the GP100 is made for .357 pressure you might look at .38+P+ loads. I use a very soft cast 358477 loaded over 6 gr of Unique. Runs right at 1000 fps out of a 4" tube. Sounds like you've a reasonable plan to me.

Larry Gibson

jhalcott
05-05-2007, 09:37 PM
What do the game wardens in the area you hunt say about this.? I'm sure you realize some areas do NOT allow "coup de gracw" guns under certain caliber /power limits. IF it is legal and YOU can hit them in the right place,MAYBE!
I saw a state trooper shot an injured deer 5 times with his 40S&W.Each shot was followed by a loud bleat from the deer and screams from the ladies in the cars on both sides of the road. A shot to the head from MY .223 varmint rifle ended the trouble.

Bullshop
05-05-2007, 10:21 PM
This is only one mans opinion so just take it as that, not gospell. The 38 +p will put a hole through a deer but that dont make it even close to a good choice for the job. The 357 mag can be way better but still not a good choice and this from a fella that has taken several with a 357 mag with one shot for each. If they go just right its good but if not just right then not so good. Also the 38/357 is more dependent on bullet/boolit action than a larger cal.
I used to have an AMT mini auto mag in 22 mag RF and it too would take deer with perfect broad side shots but I wouldnt rate that a deer round eather. You may do good work with it for awhile but sooner or later you will loose one. This can be true with any cartridge but the sooner will be sooner with the 38 than with something bigger.
BIC/BS

Larry Gibson
05-06-2007, 02:01 PM
I saw a state trooper shot an injured deer 5 times with his 40S&W.Each shot was followed by a loud bleat from the deer and screams from the ladies in the cars on both sides of the road. A shot to the head from MY .223 varmint rifle ended the trouble.

All that means is one; the state trooper can't shoot or two; he had no idea where to shoot a deer to kill it quickly. As a LE firearms instructor for years I'd bet on both. It always amazes me that most people think every LE officer is a "firearms expert". Quite the opposite is reality.

Larry Gibson

trickyasafox
05-06-2007, 03:20 PM
to add on to this, if looking for a big meplat, would a 148gr DEWC be an acceptable choice?

Hackleback
05-06-2007, 04:04 PM
In Missouri, Any Center fire cartrige is legal..... Anyone want to try a deer with a 25 ACP?? I have heard of several deer taken with cap and ball revolvers and have been told that they are about as powerfull as a 38 sp. I have never taken a deer with a 38/357, if I was going to try it with a 38+P, I would be looking at heavy(er) swc as fast as you think you can safely drive them.

versifier
05-06-2007, 04:57 PM
The 38 +p will put a hole through a deer but that dont make it even close to a good choice for the job.... You may do good work with it for awhile but sooner or later you will loose one. This can be true with any cartridge but the sooner will be sooner with the 38 than with something bigger.
BIC/BS

I, too, have used a .357mag, but had no other choice at the time, and passed up more than a few shots until just the right one presented itself. I consider it pretty much a small game cartridge, and don't use it full power for that. I wouldn't shoot at anything bigger than a coyote with a .38spec, even if it is +P or +P+, that is a personal, and I feel, an ethical choice.
For a cdg shot, though, why not? Soft SWC's should do fine. You don't need much more than careful placement at extremely short ranges. The local butcher takes off the round tip of a .22 short with a pocketknife and uses it on full grown cattle - never needed more than one in more than 40 years.

Bret4207
05-07-2007, 08:45 AM
I've killed hundreds of car struck deer with 357 and 9mm. Don't try a body shot if you can help it. Stick it between the eye and ear on a broadside or make an "X" between eyes and ears on a frontal shot. If you need to make a body shot learn where the SHOULDER is and hit him there. That'll break him down and then you finish it.

Agree on the LE not being experts in firearms. They're just another tool to most cops. Only a few love them like we do.

gregg
05-15-2007, 05:46 AM
I've killed hundreds of car struck deer with 357 and 9mm. Don't try a body shot if you can help it. Stick it between the eye and ear on a broadside or make an "X" between eyes and ears on a frontal shot. If you need to make a body shot learn where the SHOULDER is and hit him there. That'll break him down and then you finish it.

Agree on the LE not being experts in firearms. They're just another tool to most cops. Only a few love them like we do.

Yup
I would try looking at a few of Elmer's 38 loads. You know the ones for the N frame. Lost right now for the right words. Did they call it the 38 HD? Gee my daddy inlaw carried one when he was on the force. Brain dead :-(

Bullshop
05-15-2007, 10:04 AM
I think that was the 38/44 Outdoorsman.
BIC/BS

45 2.1
05-15-2007, 10:42 AM
The 38/44 heavy duty was fixed sighted and 38/44 Outdoorsman was adjustable sighted. They were both 38's on the N frame. I shoot the 358439 HP in 38 special cases with a little over 5 gr. of Unique in mine. Last year I tried these loads on a 120 lb. road killed doe. We propped her up like a shot would be presented in real life and tried various placements. All the ribcage shots, whether straight across or kittycorner went thru with excellent expansion. They would have made meat easily. The shoulder shot stayed in and made it thru the first shoulder blade. I think it would have killed, but I don't know if it would have been recovered. Unfortunately, our state does not allow its use since it doesn't have 500 ft. lbs. at the muzzle. As for a short range deer killer, I think it would be quite capable with the right shot.

ebner glocken
05-15-2007, 12:35 PM
It's been awhile since I've read the wildlife code. If I remember right it says "any centerfire with an expanding projectile excluding any firearm that projects more than one projectlile per discharge, 9mm, and 38 special."

For some reason Missouri thinks it's great to use a 22 hornet or a 32 acp with an expanding bullet but not a hot loaded .38 with a good simi wadcutter. That makes perfect sense to me............

BABore
05-15-2007, 12:39 PM
Michigan, where GrizzLeeBear posted from, allows any straightwall case, 0.357 diameter or larger, for handgun hunting. So the 38 Special would be legal. A 358156 HP or 388429 HP would do fine if left soft and shot placement was limited to the head, neck or rib cage. You might also want to consider the Ruger SP101 in 357 Mag. It's a 5-shot, fixed sighted, and has a 3 1/16" bbl. Same grip as the GP100.

Larry Gibson
05-15-2007, 02:09 PM
Some years back a buddies Dad had a very nice 38/44 with a 6" barrel so we loaded up some soft cast (recovered .22 lead as I recall) 358156s in .38 cases seated out to the second crimp groove over 2400 that came up to the base of the bullet. Sorry, don't remember the exact charge (12.5 or 13.5 gr is in my brain but I loaded many with 12.5 gr for Colt Trooper I had) but it was the recommended charge by Thompson for this back then. I also put a HP in them to a depth about half way down the bullet nose. That year he shot a few "test" rounds into an elk and a deer he had shot. I think most of his shots were from 10-15 paces. Penetration was excellent he said, even through the elks (spike) shoulder blade and expansion was very good. He was well pleased with it and though it was technically illegal (not a magnum as required back then) he shot a couple live deer with it. He passed on some time back and my buddy has the 38/44 and won't sell it to me, some buddy eh! That's ok though as I wouldn't sell it to him either.

Larry Gibson

Boz330
05-15-2007, 03:44 PM
I think that the key word is ethical and your ability to make sure the shot will kill humanely. Deer are killed with 22s but wouldn't be my choice.

If you can locate one of the old Lyman manuals the +P 38s are damn close to a .357 mag. Liability has tamed many of those loads these days.

Bob

gregg
05-15-2007, 09:05 PM
The 38/44 heavy duty was fixed sighted and 38/44 Outdoorsman
Yup Yup was a 5 inch 38/44HD. Sold it for $175 back in 1979. I told the wife no old very well wore 38 Spl worth that much and passed on the deal.
I suffered from Young,Dumb, with broke young married guy in there.
What I would give to own that gun now! just to be able to past on to our boys. I have his badge love to own the gun to so to pass it on also.
Another thing you cannot use a 44WCF to hunt deer here in SD. I'm trying to plan a 44 WCF deer hunt for next fall. I'm sure a 44 WCF will kill a deer at 50 yards in the woods. That what I want to do so hang the law.
Since when is a 220 gr 44 bullet at 1400 FPS turn into a harmless powder puff?
GrizzLeeBear set his limits and they sound good. Better than the guys I work with that don't shoot 20 rounds a year and talk of how they shoot there game at 500 to 800yds . They tell you thay will do it any time any where on deman

Boz330
05-16-2007, 11:21 AM
GrizzLeeBear set his limits and they sound good. Better than the guys I work with that don't shoot 20 rounds a year and talk of how they shoot there game at 500 to 800yds . They tell you thay will do it any time any where on deman[/QUOTE]

I hear you. I used to have to guide folks just like that. We used to make the hunters check there rifles for zero when they checked in with the outfitter. Several times they used up all of there ammo getting rezeroed. One guy that I was spotting for was making adjustments and the shots kept getting worse and worse. Finally I looked over his shoulder as he was making the adjustment and he was using the wrong knob. I swear!!:roll:

Bob

Bass Ackward
05-16-2007, 12:07 PM
Everyone has a different idea of what constitutes humane. Is shooting a feeding deer from some distance that may not even quit feeding only to fall over in 15 seconds any more humane than a heart shot deer that runs for 200 yards in less than 10 seconds? Deer can cover a lot of distance fast.

I have placed several shots in what is recognized as the "correct" spot of a rib cage with 38s and 357s and the results were never .... impressive regardless of bullet design or bullet hardness. This would be OK, as most cartridges often fail to impress. But sometimes some of the best positioned shots taken up close were down right disheartening too. I suspect because of the adrenalin rush brought on from surprise.

I would say the 38 and 357 for that matter would be better off out some distance than as a close range option. But considering all the issues, personally, I want a smaller percentage of disheartening.

Joey
05-17-2007, 11:36 PM
Let me say up front, I have never shot a deer with a 38spl.+p. I have shot pigs with it. I use a Mdl. 10 S&W with 4" Hvy. bbl. I load 173 gr. Keith cast hard with 4gr. Accura#2.

It does the job. This is also my range practice and self defense load.

LowPE
05-18-2007, 04:47 PM
You could try keith's load: 358429 in 38 special case, 13.5 grains of 2400, crimp in crimp groove, regular small primer. This load came from a Taffin article and said it was a +P+P+P load for 357 and very strong 38 specials only.

I have shot lots of this, but only in a 4" Ruger GP-100 with fixed sights. Shoots about 2.5" high. So far the pistol hasn't blown up.


Be careful.

Dale53
05-18-2007, 05:44 PM
I don't pretend to know it all. However, I draw the line at .40 caliber and over for deer with a handgun. I would take one with my .44 Special if limited but since I am not it is .44 mag or bigger for me.

I have no doubt that a hot rodded .38 special would do the job MOST times. However, deer have a lot of vitality and I have had them sprint for 100 yards with a .44 Mag through the heart. The area I hunt is not over hunted and I manage to find my deer quite well, thank you, but I don't want anything much smaller than a .44 mag.

My state (Ohio) requires: or handgun with 5-in. minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger,

I guess .38's are legal but I question the ethics of using them. Of course, a good, hot loaded .38 by a really competent hunter/shooter sure beats a .454 when used by a incompetent shooter and YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK!!

Dale53

Glen
05-19-2007, 11:58 AM
I'm with Bullshop and Dale53. Will a .38 +P kill a deer? Yes. Will it kill that deer quickly and humanely enough to be considered "sporting"? Well....maybe....maybe not...

If properly loaded (e.g. with the Keith or Thompson HPs loaded "briskly"), and used selectively for ribcage shots in the heart/lung region, I would be confident that it would probably do the job, but I would feel much better with other guns in my hands (e.g. .44 Special, .45 Colt, etc.). I feel a sense of responsibility to the animals that I'm hunting to do everything in my power to eliminate the possibility of a slow lingering death. Sport hunting with a marginally powered cartridge just doesn't fit into that sense of responsibility.

Now if your question is aimed at a hypothetical survival situation, and the .38 +P is all that you have available, I would use it in a heartbeat.

357maximum
05-19-2007, 03:20 PM
everytime I read a thread such as this, and some of the responses that naturally come along....I sit back and thank my lucky stars that the wee little ol' 150-190 lb whitetails I hunt do not come with the kevlar hides that apparently some whitetail come with......IF YOU POKE A HOLE THROUGH HIS LUNGS HE WILL BE DEAD WITHIN 110 YARDS...GUARANTEED .....EVERYTIME.....IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW BIG THE HOLE IS....

dubber123
05-19-2007, 03:59 PM
357maximum, suppose it goes 111 yards? how do I collect your guarantee? Just yankin' your chain, I did hunt one season with of all things a 4" Mod 10 S&W. Probably not the best choice, but I had recently put 30,000 rounds of the same load through it in about 5 months, and had the utmost confidence in my shot placement.

Bass Ackward
05-19-2007, 05:09 PM
IF YOU POKE A HOLE THROUGH HIS LUNGS HE WILL BE DEAD WITHIN 110 YARDS...GUARANTEED .....EVERYTIME.....IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW BIG THE HOLE IS....


I have trailed quite a few that it's hard to tell exactly on the ground how far they went. So to guess would be inaccurate. Most were shot out of the orchard which is down one hill, up the other side and over the top in a direct route is about 600 yards. Some were able to be shot again and recovered.

When deer were just getting started in my area they were very few and easy to track. I trailed one about 8 miles bleeding every now and then. It never stopped and just continued a steady walk. I had to stop when I got to the West Virginia border. Figured I had lost him. About three weeks later he was back feeding in the granary where I popped him the first time. Blood stains indicating both entrance and exit. He was a little wilder after that though.

I have about 45 deer that come to the back of the house. Every year one or two are shot, probably with arrows judging by the angles of the blood stains and they survive. One from last year just threw a fawn this week.

357maximum
05-20-2007, 09:21 AM
When deer were just getting started in my area they were very few and easy to track. I trailed one about 8 miles bleeding every now and then. It never stopped and just continued a steady walk. I had to stop when I got to the West Virginia border. Figured I had lost him. About three weeks later he was back feeding in the granary where I popped him the first time. Blood stains indicating both entrance and exit. He was a little wilder after that that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 357maximum
IF YOU POKE A HOLE THROUGH HIS LUNGS HE WILL BE DEAD WITHIN 110 YARDS...GUARANTEED .....EVERYTIME.....IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW BIG THE HOLE IS....



Obviously the wound was not to the lungs.....deer simply do not live when the lung is popped...pretty simple if you think about it....a hole in a lung does not self heal...despite what a few gunraggers report........if the deer makes if further than 111 yards:mrgreen: you did not hit lung.....you may have hit something close to lung, but not the lungs obviously..

45 2.1
05-20-2007, 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 357maximum
IF YOU POKE A HOLE THROUGH HIS LUNGS HE WILL BE DEAD WITHIN 110 YARDS...GUARANTEED .....EVERYTIME.....IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW BIG THE HOLE IS....



Obviously the wound was not to the lungs.....deer simply do not live when the lung is popped...pretty simple if you think about it....a hole in a lung does not self heal...despite what a few gunraggers report........if the deer makes if further than 111 yards:mrgreen: you did not hit lung.....you may have hit something close to lung, but not the lungs obviously..

Well, in my years of hunting deer, i've had 4 instances to the contrary of this. All had holes thru the lungs, in and out with 12 gauge slugs down to hard cast 41 Mag boolits. I watched them run and wondered when they were going to fall over. They did at 340 yds, 530 yds, 330 yds and 280 yds from the point they were shot. In all instances heavy fat had plugged the hole somewhat with just enough blood spraying to track them. So it does happen, sometimes.

lovedogs
05-20-2007, 01:28 PM
Almost anything will work for a "coup de grace". Many use the lowly .22 for this. I've got tons of experience with the .38 Special and my opinion is that it can be just right or not enough, depending on the circumstance. No doubt, if it's placed right it'll kill a deer. Is it ideal? No. Will it work? Yes, if you do your part and use the right bullet. It sounds like you are approaching it with good intentions; I would only caution you that a .38 isn't really all that powerful. I'd use something else if at all possible for hunting. A finishing shot at point blank, no problem. But at much range at all I'd rather use something else.

Just a couple examples of how varied the outcome can be... I had a friend who once wounded a nice buck deer. It was a non-lethal wound in the lower rear leg. But at the time we weren't aware of that. The deer ran. My friend was using an old military surplus rifle that he'd not worked up a good functioning load for and in his panic he got a jam. I was done hunting for the year and wasn't carrying a rifle. All I had was a four-inch .38 cal. pistol with me. It was stoked with Speer 140 gr. HP's. Not wanting the deer to get away wounded, and not knowing the extent of it's wound, I took a shot with the .38, thinking it the only ethical thing to do under the circumstances. I know I'll catch a lot of flack over this just like old Elmer Keith did over shooting a mule deer buck at 600 yds. with his .44, but he made his judgement to attempt to put that deer down so it wouldn't get away to die of it's wounds. I made the same decision. And at the time I was shooting about 10,000 to 12,000 rounds a year and wasn't too bad of a shot. So I got a rest and fired a shot at the buck who was standing 100 yds. away now. He took the shot behind the left shoulder and it angled through to the right shoulder, where it came to rest. Fortunately, it dropped him on the spot. I could probably expend another boxcar load of ammo and never pull that off again. But this demonstrates that if all goes right a .38 can do the job.

The second example is a sad one. A good friend of many years developed Huntington's Chorea Disease, a genetic disease that kills the brain. When it got in the advanced stages he knew what a horrible death he was facing and what it'd do to his wife, financially. He made the decision to shoot himself, which he did. He laid down and shot himself in the right temple with a .38 Special. You'd think it'd do the job really well. Right? It didn't. After his wife called the ambulance it came out to their country home 10 miles out of town. The ambulance got stuck in the snow in their yard trying to back up to their front door. It took them a half-hour to dig it out. They finally got him loaded and headed for the hospital. He died just as they arrived at the hospital.

I still carry a Ruger SP101 in .38 Special as my carry weapon but I realize it's no power house. Used right, it'll usually get the job done. But I can't honestly advise anyone use it to hunt deer with when there are much better choices.

9.3X62AL
05-20-2007, 01:57 PM
Having a whole lot of 40 caliber-plus revolvers and autopistols to choose from--and a couple 357's--I wouldn't use a 38 Special as a primary deer harvester. That said--trying to reliably predict wound ballistics--or the results therefrom--is very risky business. Every upgrade to bullet weight--diameter--and velocity is a "plus" in my book.

bisleyfan41
05-20-2007, 02:39 PM
Get a bigger gun more suitable to the task at hand which is humanely killing a deer and practice endlessly. Respect the game being hunted...this is no place for STUNTS. And purposefully hunting deer with a 38sp (other than for sheer survival) IS A STUNT.

dubber123
05-20-2007, 03:43 PM
I kind of agree with bisleyfan41, and I previously admitted to hunting on purpose with a 38 spl. It was, I guess a "stunt", although one I had the utmost confidence at the time of being able to pull off. To each his own I guess, I'm sure it can and will work, the choice is up to the individual. I hate to see things suffer, more and more so as I get older, but this is an individuals choice. I now mostly carry a .475 Linebaugh, and the .38 stays at home. I won't condemn a capable shooter with good loads and a reasonable range limitation though,. My no-good opinion.

waksupi
05-20-2007, 08:38 PM
Poke a hole through the lungs, and it's dead in a hundred yards or so? Got a story for you. Many years ago, I shot a doe right at sunset with a Bear broadhead. Arrow angled in through the front, went through lung, diaphram, and liver. It got dark on me, and began to rain and snow, so went home for the evening. Was back out at first light, with my neighbor, and his dog. We finally picked up some sign under some trees, and came up on her, about 600 yards from original hit. This was some 14 hours after the shot, and she was still alive. We couldn't believe she had survived the lung, diaphram, and liver damage that long. We believe that the arrow was probably dull, from being taken out of the foam type quiver on the bow several times. I don't use that type of quiver anymore, and resharpen arrows every night now.
There was a Minneapolis policeman hunting the east side, and tried finishing off an antelope buck with his .38 special. Bullets were bouncing off of it's head, at a range of 6 feet.

357maximum
05-20-2007, 10:49 PM
Like I said originally...i am glad the deer I hund are wussies without the kevlar coating........you want to see a stunt......use a slingshot...at 10 yards on a broadside shot it too would make meat...now thats a stunt...one I intend to carry out behind a high fence one of these days......I have to bring myself to the fact that I have to buy the livestock doe to do it first...i ain't willing to buy the doe quite yet, but someday i will...and i will document it to many chigrinn I am sure i will get......I respect the quarry do not get me wrong...ther ain't nothing more magical than a whitetail....but they are not kevlar encrusted mythical beasts..some seem to make them into.


Of the 37 (I actually counted the pics in my book)bucks and half dozen does I have killed in 17 years of hunting or so only 3 have went beyond the 110 yard mark...all with a bow and all were liver/gut/not so great shots.... I guess our flatland michigan deer are truly wussies as whitetails go.....cause my measley 22/30/35 cal boolits/bullets and my lightweight arrows seem to put them right into the sub 110 yard death run everytime they take one through the lungs...

I will agree to disagree with you all.....maybe i am just one lucky sob...but one of the things I stand fast on is the fact that if it goes beyond 110 yards the hit was not as true through the lungs as you might have thought...alot of autopsies on mine as well as other deer pan this out for me enough to stand behind my original statement.

BTW...the lungs do not extend as far back as some apparently believe...


ther is always the 50BMG for those who need it..

Michael

dubber123
05-20-2007, 11:08 PM
50 BMG won't fit in a revolver, so I'm out!

357maximum
05-20-2007, 11:13 PM
50 BMG won't fit in a revolver, so I'm out!

Give it time someday soon it will be a neccessity...the deer seem to get tougher every other magazine article and soon someone will build it to fill the neccessary void:twisted: .....patience..he he

dubber123
05-20-2007, 11:20 PM
Give it time someday soon it will be a neccessity...the deer seem to get tougher every other magazine article and soon someone will build it to fill the neccessary void:twisted: .....patience..he he

It still better fit in a hip holster![smilie=1:

rugerman1
05-21-2007, 01:15 AM
50 BMG won't fit in a revolver, so I'm out!
:kidding:
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q299/sawrm1/z2520revolver.jpg

357maximum
05-21-2007, 02:10 AM
Might still need a blood tracking dog for the barely adequate 50 bmg revolver cartridge.....ha[smilie=1:

Bass Ackward
05-21-2007, 05:58 AM
Just be prepared for the day when your (any) system fails. It can be most discouraging when it does. You tend to forget how many successes you have had over the years, and the impulse is to acquire something to improve your success.

Above is the standard mind set for hunting failure. And sence most deer have been shot at close range statistically, the chance of old time rifle shooters missing the mark that many times is fairly slim. And gun sales and caliber choices advanced. It made reading what was written in those magazines more logical.

I am not saying here that that was the only reason. But I saw many a long time (incert caliber of choice) man have this same senario occur, and the next season he was sporting something new. That's how strong the negative emotion is.

I had it with the 38 Spec AND 357. Sorry, but that's my story.

357maximum
05-21-2007, 10:38 AM
BA...I understand exactly what you are telling me with perfect clarity.....no further explanation required.

BABore
05-21-2007, 12:19 PM
BA...I understand exactly what you are telling me with perfect clarity.....no further explanation required.


You sure? You look awful young and maybe a little wet behind the ears.:brokenima [smilie=1:

357maximum
05-21-2007, 12:34 PM
You sure? You look awful young and maybe a little wet behind the ears.:brokenima [smilie=1:

That means alot coming from an old man[smilie=1: ...he he:drinks:


I won't even get into what that moisture is behind my ears...:twisted: or how it got there:mrgreen:

bisleyfan41
05-21-2007, 12:44 PM
357 max, i wish to frame my experiences and thoughts as to proper hunting arms in an understandable context. imo i think most deer hunters are over gunned for the taking of a relatively frail animal. the 30-06, 270, etc imo is more than required and if pinned down to pick the most useful rifle round for deer it would be the 7mm08. it's just about right for most of the situations likely to be encountered. myself, for the last 28 yrs of my hunting life, i've killed all my deer with a win 94 .30-30, ruger sbh 44, and various muzzleloaders with a few bowkills thrown in as well.

the above is not intended to belittle other's choices; it's only there to point out to you that i'm not in the ultra, super, mega mag category of hunters that you think i am. i do not pursue suirrels with a 500 s&w, nor do i go after quail with a 10ga. my motto is to use enough gun for the job with out maiming the shooter in the process. the deer here have no "kevlar" either.

it is IRRESPONSIBLE to hunt a game animal with a weapon that is marginal at best. that's my opinion as well as a fact. the plentiful deer populations and no real need anymore to "fill the freezer" has tempted many to try other innapropriate ways to add "fun" to the hunt. it's like..." oh well, i'll try to shoot this deer with a 38 and if it runs off and dies painfully a few days later because i can't find it, no big deal, another will be along soon and i'll try that one too".

bottom line is this... if you feel the need to add more thrill to your hunt by using equipment that will more than likely end up in a wounded animal not being recovered only to die much later from infections, then YOU need to find a new hobby. and i'm not talking about using a #@(*^#% slingshot for them either. you've got to be kidding! slingshot? in a fence? animal you bought? 10 yds?
that sounds like "Sporstman of the Year" award material to me.

357maximum
05-21-2007, 12:58 PM
357 max, i wish to frame my experiences and thoughts as to proper hunting arms in an understandable context. imo i think most deer hunters are over gunned for the taking of a relatively frail animal. the 30-06, 270, etc imo is more than required and if pinned down to pick the most useful rifle round for deer it would be the 7mm08. it's just about right for most of the situations likely to be encountered. myself, for the last 28 yrs of my hunting life, i've killed all my deer with a win 94 .30-30, ruger sbh 44, and various muzzleloaders with a few bowkills thrown in as well.

the above is not intended to belittle other's choices; it's only there to point out to you that i'm not in the ultra, super, mega mag category of hunters that you think i am. i do not pursue suirrels with a 500 s&w, nor do i go after quail with a 10ga. my motto is to use enough gun for the job with out maiming the shooter in the process. the deer here have no "kevlar" either.

it is IRRESPONSIBLE to hunt a game animal with a weapon that is marginal at best. that's my opinion as well as a fact. the plentiful deer populations and no real need anymore to "fill the freezer" has tempted many to try other innapropriate ways to add "fun" to the hunt. it's like..." oh well, i'll try to shoot this deer with a 38 and if it runs off and dies painfully a few days later because i can't find it, no big deal, another will be along soon and i'll try that one too".

bottom line is this... if you feel the need to add more thrill to your hunt by using equipment that will more than likely end up in a wounded animal not being recovered only to die much later from infections, then YOU need to find a new hobby. and i'm not talking about using a #@(*^#% slingshot for them either. you've got to be kidding! slingshot? in a fence? animal you bought? 10 yds?
that sounds like "Sporstman of the Year" award material to me.


Notice that it has not happened yet, and the reason for the fenced animal is twofold if it does in fact ever happen.........1. legal issues..slingshots are not legal deer weaponry for a reason...duh 2. very controlled environment and conditions.. I was not talking of a "HUNT" I was talking of a "KILL"...BIG DIFFERENCE...that is why the "livestock" was added in front of the word DOE.

Go buy a modern wrist rocket and shoot some 32 cal roundballs at a 1/2 inch piece of plywood at ten yards.....then get back to me.

This was not a sportsman issue (the whole fence thing)...it was to prove what it takes to merely kill a lil ol whitetail....and we were talking coupe de grace work...right?

never heard of devils advocate either I spose?

45 2.1
05-21-2007, 01:26 PM
Go buy a modern wrist rocket and shoot some 32 cal roundballs at a 1/2 inch piece of plywood at ten yards.....then get back to me. I got news for you young guys, this has all been done before. Steelies have killed a lot of stuff out of a slingshot. They used to have an arrow adapter to shoot arrows too. Don't bet it hasn't been done. The old timers that settled this country made do with what they had. A lot of hogs, deer, beef and wild game fell to a 32 squirrel rifle with a pinch of powder. A ball in the pan dropped them like a rock. Amazing what marbles will do too.

This was not a sportsman issue (the whole fence thing)...it was to prove what it takes to merely kill a lil ol whitetail....and we were talking coupe de grace work...right? Not hardly!

BABore
05-21-2007, 01:32 PM
Holy Mole

Now we got a young wipper snapper and one who was around when the country was settled.

Let's settle this! Cow pies at 50 paces.:groner::Fire:

357maximum
05-21-2007, 01:46 PM
Holy Mole

Now we got a young wipper snapper and one who was around when the country was settled.

Let's settle this! Cow pies at 50 paces.:groner::Fire:

Hey Bob I think Bruce is calling you old and I a pup.....it's all fun and games till someones oxygen tube falls out....be careful BABore...some old dogs have alot of starch, and some young pups have mighty sharp teeth, as well as the moxy to use them...:Fire:

45 2.1
05-21-2007, 01:50 PM
Hey Bob I think Bruce is calling you old and I a pup.....it's all fun and games till someones oxygen tube falls out....be careful BABore...some old dogs have alot of starch, and some young pups have mighty sharp teeth, as well as the moxy to use them...:Fire:

I know how old both of you are. He is getting "along there" and my earn an "Old" title doing things like that. I still have all my teeth and hair too. How much hair do you have to have to be considered young?? Huh?

BABore
05-21-2007, 01:56 PM
Hey Bob I think Bruce is calling you old and I a pup.....it's all fun and games till someones oxygen tube falls out....be careful BABore...some old dogs have alot of starch, and some young pups have mighty sharp teeth, as well as the moxy to use them...:Fire:

Now don't be callin on Bob fer help. :grin:I'm just sitting here all middle aged, atop the hill, looking at you crawling up and Bob sliding down.[smilie=l:

BABore
05-21-2007, 01:59 PM
I know how old both of you are. He is getting "along there" and my earn an "Old" title doing things like that. I still have all my teeth and hair too. How much hair do you have to have to be considered young?? Huh?

Now that's low. Does keeping it in a shoe box count.:-D

45 2.1
05-21-2007, 02:00 PM
Now don't be callin on Bob fer help. :grin:I'm just sitting here all middle aged, atop the hill, looking at you crawling up and Bob sliding down.[smilie=l:
Nope, your on a knoll on the way to the fog shrouded top. Once you get there, there is a big drop on the other side. You can always chose to slide back down the way you came up and pursue other things too.

357maximum
05-21-2007, 02:03 PM
I know how old both of you are. He is getting "along there" and my earn an "Old" title doing things like that. I still have all my teeth and hair too. How much hair do you have to have to be considered young?? Huh?

:hijack:
I do not think hair has much to do with it....I still have all my hair too, but it is migrating from my noggin to other places....gotta love genetics....I am quickly approaching that scary avatar of Riccochets'......and a few of my teeth are at least partially made out of titanium and ceramic...if relocating hair made ya smarter I am rapidly approaching brilliance.........at least my back and nether regions will stay warm...

357maximum
05-21-2007, 02:08 PM
Now don't be callin on Bob fer help. :grin:I'm just sitting here all middle aged, atop the hill, looking at you crawling up and Bob sliding down.[smilie=l:

Heck, I'll take help in any form it can be found...people are always telling me I need help...just taking their advice...hehe

45 2.1
05-21-2007, 02:12 PM
I do not think hair has much to do with it....I still have all my hair too, but it is migrating from my noggin to other places....gotta love genetics....I am quickly approaching that scary avatar of Riccochets'......and a few of my teeth are at least partially made out of titanium and ceramic...if relocating hair made ya smarter I am rapidly approaching brilliance...Thats not what that does Mike......at least my back and nether regions will stay warm...

It doesn't count if its not in its original spot it came in. Try again.

Now that's low. Does keeping it in a shoe box count.:grin:

Ut oh, I see a Samson/Delilah tale coming on.

357maximum
05-21-2007, 02:18 PM
It doesn't count if its not in its original spot it came in. Try again.

.[/B]



Maybe I can use the hair in my ears as a comb over...should not be long at the rate it is growing....

dubber123
05-21-2007, 08:03 PM
Well, this post is entertaining if nothing else!

357maximum
05-21-2007, 08:31 PM
Well, this post is entertaining if nothing else!

Isn't that the point? or did I miss something?

floodgate
05-21-2007, 09:12 PM
45-2.1:

"
I know how old both of you are. He is getting "along there" and my earn an "Old" title doing things like that. I still have all my teeth and hair too. How much hair do you have to have to be considered young?? Huh?"

Well, at 76 I've still got all my teeth (except the "wisdom" ones - which, come to think of it may explain... oh, never mind), and at least 75% as much hair as I show in my graduation photo, so....uh, what was the topic?

etagdoolf

45 2.1
05-22-2007, 07:22 AM
45-2.1:

""

Well, at 76 I've still got all my teeth (except the "wisdom" ones - which, come to think of it may explain... oh, never mind), and at least 75% as much hair as I show in my graduation photo, so....uh, what was the topic?

etagdoolf

Original topic was highjacked and this was a private joke. The recipient is in his mid thirties and has little hair left, on the top of his head.

BABore
05-22-2007, 08:10 AM
Original topic was highjacked and this was a private joke. The recipient is in his mid thirties and has little hair left, on the top of his head.


Gee, I never seen a pic of Mike without a hat. No wonder he's so sensitive.:-D

I'm in my mid 40's and have little hair left on top of my head. I'm well over that now.[smilie=1:

357maximum
05-22-2007, 10:56 AM
Gee, I never seen a pic of Mike without a hat. No wonder he's so sensitive.:-D

I'm in my mid 40's and have little hair left on top of my head. I'm well over that now.[smilie=1:



I am not sensitive,,,,,,I in fact have given up, and I have begun to MOW my hair with clippers....I use the barbers money for lead and gaschecks...it turned out to be a win/win situation......save money on shampoo also.......I am not bald yet...just embracing fate right from the get go.....this one I can not win...so why bother.:drinks:

KCSO
05-22-2007, 11:09 AM
It still boils down to killing vrs. hunting. If you are HUNTING you take what reasonable shots are presented depending on your weapon. That means that a fellow with a 38 is going to have to let more deer go by than a fellow shooting a 45-70. In most states you use what the Game Commission has decided you can use, and for survival you use whatever you have. Having carried a Rossi lever gfun since 1971 and having shot a bunch of critters with a 38 I would say there shgould be no problem KILLING a deer with a 38 wadcutter, one shot behind the ear = one dead deer. This would not be my first choice for HUNTING deer though.

Old Ironsights
05-22-2007, 12:43 PM
I am not sensitive,,,,,,I in fact have given up, and I have begun to MOW my hair with clippers....I use the barbers money for lead and gaschecks...it turned out to be a win/win situation......save money on shampoo also.......I am not bald yet...just embracing fate right from the get go.....this one I can not win...so why bother.:drinks:

Me too. Havn't paid a barber in a few years now.

Old Ironsights
05-22-2007, 12:46 PM
It still boils down to killing vrs. hunting. If you are HUNTING you take what reasonable shots are presented depending on your weapon. That means that a fellow with a 38 is going to have to let more deer go by than a fellow shooting a 45-70. In most states you use what the Game Commission has decided you can use, and for survival you use whatever you have. Having carried a Rossi lever gfun since 1971 and having shot a bunch of critters with a 38 I would say there shgould be no problem KILLING a deer with a 38 wadcutter, one shot behind the ear = one dead deer. This would not be my first choice for HUNTING deer though.

Tongue firmly in cheek, but still, the history is correct...


Perhaps a brief handgun cartridge history can best illustrate the point. From the last quarter of the 19th Century through the first quarter of the 20th Century, standard revolver cartridges such as the .45 Long Colt (the "world's most powerful revolver cartridge" at that time) and the relatively flat shooting .38 Special High Speed (loaded to maximum average pressures--MAP--up to about 20,000 psi) were considered to be all that was required for any handgun purpose afield. But by the mid-1920s game had gotten harder to kill and the standard velocity handgun cartridges were no longer sufficient for the task, even at very close range.

The first magnum handgun cartridge, the .357 Magnum, was therefore introduced in 1935 to shift the balance of power back to the handgun hunter. And, for at time, it did. At the time of its introduction the .357, loaded to the previously unheard of (for a handgun) MAP of about 43,000 psi, was the most powerful handgun cartridge in the world. It was loaded with a 158 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1550 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 845 ft. lbs. The .357 was used to bag all North American big game, including elk, moose, and the great bears, before the beginning of the Second World War. Big game was still relatively weak in that bygone era,so practically no one felt any need for a more powerful handgun hunting cartridge.

But by the end of World War II wild game was becoming too tough for the .357 Magnum. Elk and moose were becoming impervious even to perfectly placed .357" bullets. (Today, of course, we all know that even the smallest deer have become completely immune to .357 Magnum bullets.) Experiments to again redress the balance of killing power were underway in earnest by 1950, and in 1956 the result, the .44 Remington Magnum, was born. ...


As can clearly be seen from the forgoing history, the pace of big game indestructibility is quickening. It is no longer a secret that elk, shot by high power rifle bullets and once thought to be stone dead, are re-awakening. (A conspiracy by PETA and other animal rights groups may be responsible this; a secret, undercover Guns and Shooting Online investigation into this possibility is underway.) The .30-06 rifle cartridge is now considered marginal for killing elk, and is close to becoming totally inadequate. See Bruce Rutherford's interesting article "Adequate Elk Cartridges," which can be found on the Ammunition and Cartridge Articles index of the Rifle Information Page for more on this subject.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/825_magnum.htm

lovedogs
05-22-2007, 01:12 PM
Since being with you all on this site I've begun to notice that sometimes it doesn't take much to keep us entertained. I'm surprised Carpetman hasn't jumped in here. He is usually full of clever wit. What does all this have to do with deer and the .38 Special?

Old Ironsights
05-22-2007, 01:17 PM
Mostly that untill the advent of magnumitis the .38 worked just fine... as did 38-40 and 44-40, which really don't have all that much more poop...

357maximum
05-22-2007, 01:58 PM
My final thoughts on this one:

If you can do it...do it.....if you believe you cannot ....don't.....you obviously can't and do not have the skill to do it without calling it an attempt....when I drop the hammer it is never an attempt...it is a kill....


I am not talking ethics here...them depend on how much you read I spose...see old ironsights posts......straight dope there...whether you want to believe it or not....

My whitetail do not read magazines, and they do not know it takes something large and fast to kill em....they will surrender right quick after a lung hit from a 38+P load...that as that famous chef Justin would say....I guaranteeeeeeeeeeee

GrizzLeeBear
05-24-2007, 05:22 PM
Great googly moogly! 4 pages?! Wow, this thread died out for about a week so I haven't been back to check on it. Thanks for all the replies guys (even though it got a little off course). I just got a 6" GP-100 today, so if I wanted to hunt with a pistol, it would probably be this one (with the appropriate range limitations, of course). I have other guns, rifles, muzzleloaders, etc. for primary hunting guns, the 38 spl. idea was just as a kind of back-up gun. Wanted to hear from some people who have ACTUALLY shot deer with one, even if they were not under hunting conditions. The idea of a 4" fixed sighted gun still sounds good to me for a woods carry gun, but if I get one in the future it will be a .357 mag. By the way, I have seen one of the 4" fixed sighted GP-100's, so they are out there, just have to search a while to find them.
I didn't want to get into a lot of ethics discussions, but just let me say that I DO NOT have the attitude that wounding a deer and letting it wander off to die is ok because I can just shoot another one. I have chased after and recovered enough wounded deer shot by other people that I do not enjoy that kind of thing. In this day of whiz-bang, 150 gr. of powder, in-line, "magnum", scoped, "250 yard" muzzleloaders that you MUST have to kill those kevlar coated dear, I hunt with a .54 cal. flintlock during muzzleloader season. I know the guns limitations, and mine with the gun (basically 100 yds. but usually much closer). Does this make it unethical because I limit myself with an "underpowered" gun by todays standards? Not hardly. But I do get your points about having enough gun to do the job humanely. I had a feeling that the .357 would be about the lightest caliber to reliably kill deer, but wanted to hear some experience with the 38.

Old Ironsights
05-24-2007, 05:41 PM
I am not talking ethics here...them depend on how much you read I spose...see old ironsights posts......straight dope there...whether you want to believe it or not....

Thanks:

My final 2p:

When you shoot a deer with a Bow, it's still an "ethical kill" if you have to track it 30-100 yds.

As long as you can do that with whatever caliber you are using... well... What's good for the goose...

That's no to say I don't prefer a DRT shot - and strive for it every time - but somewhere we've forgotten somthing about the process of hunting as passed down from time immemorial.

Use what you've got (as long as it's"legal") and use it to the best of your ability.

If a Bowhunter wouldn't grouse/feel bad about the track, neither should you.

JMO - as a gun AND bow hunter....

gregg
05-25-2007, 03:11 AM
In this day of whiz-bang, 150 gr. of powder, in-line, "magnum", scoped, "250 yard" muzzleloaders that you MUST have to kill those kevlar coated dear, I hunt with a .54 cal. flintlock during muzzleloader season. I know the guns limitations, and mine with the gun (basically 100 yds. but usually much closer). Does this make it unethical because I limit myself with an "underpowered" gun by todays standards? Not hardly. But I do get your points about having enough gun to do the job humanely. I had a feeling that the .357 would be about the lightest caliber to reliably kill deer, but wanted to hear some experience with the 38.
Yup I hear ya. My wife and I shot alot of deer with 50 RB guns . Hole in hole out and they never went far. Far less than 50 yds.
It would look like when there front legs as they were running hit the ground they would exhale and when they would you could see in the snow red mist blown across the snow. Some would even run into trees. Like they where running blind and dead on there feet. That Ruger should take some SW N frame loads that should put the hurt on deer at the correct range. Do some searchs for stuff PACO KELLY has written on 357s . FRANK KELLY OR PACO has to be as close to Keith as we have walking right now. Thats just my thought. I do enjoy his writing.
Here a place to start.
http://leverguns.com/articles/Default.htm

Gregg