Need Info on Thompson Center Hawken Rifle

[cailey37]

Well, this past weekend I picked up a 45 caliber Thompson Center Hawkens rifle for $100 at an estate sale. First, I don't even know if that was a good price or not but I figured what the heck. It's in great shape and I figure at the least it will look good in the gun cabinet. Well, I've never been a muzzleloader guy so all of this is pretty new to me. I see there are all kinds of bullet options out there but I don't know which ones I should shoot in this thing. If I use it at all I'll use it to hunt deer so if that makes a difference on bullets then I would love to know. I don't even know how much powder to put in this thing so if anyone could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it. Thanks for the look and any info you may be able to provide.

[TCLouis]

Assuming the barrel is in good shape and not pitted

PRB and real Black Powder if you can find it. Pillow ticking, round ball lube with olive oil and beeswax mix.

If you sling bullets, few 45 bullets available, but 180 grain 357 bullet and sabot may work.

No hint where you are and that will make a big difference on size of deer expected.


Go forth and load from the FRONT.

Just remember this Mantra,

"First the powder, then the ball"

[smoked turkey]

Welcome to the forum. You will have a wonderful time here mixing it up with the other members on most any thing to do with shooting/hunting/reloading. We even have a favorite receipe section! A lot of us also shoot TCs and you will be able to get all the help you need. I recommend you read the "stickies" located at the top of each section. These deal with some of the things that most of us really need to know about that particular section. I also recommend you check around on some of the reloading suppliers for a Lyman muzzleloading handbook. You might think about getting one for casting and one for smokeless powder as well because you'll be there before you know it. Good luck and have fun.

[10 ga]

Most of the "Hawken" type MLs were intended for patched round ball, especially the older ones. That is not always applicable as some will shoot bullets and sabots well. Start with the patched roundball as TCLewis stated. You might also want to try some REAL boolits, minnie boolits, and some sabot/bullet combos. I use the blue sabots and 10mm/.40cal pistol boolits in my .45 MLs and they shoot just fine. In the hammer guns I like my "Holy Black" and suggest using FFF granulation in the .45. Keep us updated on progress and any problems you encounter. AND yes, read the stickies and use the search engine it will find a lot of stuff for ya. Best, 10 ga

[HARRYMPOPE]

30-40g of FFF Black or Pyrodex "P" with .445 ball and a pillow ticking patch will shoot well to 50 yards and is a fun offhand load.Black can be hard to get in some places and Pyrodex works fine.Buy a BP Lyman manual and it will get you going.I like the older one rather than the new Sam Fadala written one.

[Hang Fire]

Is it a caplock or rocklock? The TC Hawkens as a rule are very accurate and lots of matches have been won with them.

Most if not all of the TC Hawkens were 1:48 twist, so in addition to roundball, they can also stabilize short conicals.

Got Pics? Would be interesting to see if is is old or new style as to stock and lock.

Geeze, prices are unreal to this child. Dixie lists new .50 cal TC Hawken percussion at $850.00 and rocklock for $866.50.

[Leslie Sapp]

You did very well. That's a fine rifle and it will give you many years of great service. Here's Thompson Center's manual (http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/noncurrent/Shooting_TC_Side_Lock_Black_Powder_Guns.pdf).

We shoot the maxi balls in our Hawkins when hunting, and use a patched round ball for plinking.

[cailey37]

Appreciate everyone's input. The rifle is a caplock and I could take some pics and put in on here. I'm in Mississippi so the deer aren't that big, perhaps 150lbs on a good day. I have to ask, what is pillow ticking? Sorry if it's a dumb question but like I said, I'm pretty new to all this and I'm not even going to pretend I understand much about it. So, if I understand everyone, bullets like the powerbelts shouldn't be shot in this rifle? Just go with the regular balls or the maxi balls? Thanks again for all the inputs. Will be looking all thru the forum for all info I can find.

[docone31]

Pillow ticking is found at Walmart in the fabric dept. The Blue, or Grey is usually a good fit.
Lee makes a combination mold. A RB, and R.E.A.L.
Being a caplock, there are two points to make a misfire.
The first being the cleanout screw. Crud sits on the end of the screw and on occasion falls under the nipple outlet. Second is the nipple itself.
If it has been fired a lot before, and the edge is bowed out, you can file the nipple flush, or replace it. Dry firing these planishes the nipple making the cap hard to fit. Second, if the nipple goes too far into the breechplug, or bolster, depending on which variant you have, You will have to "clean" the end of the nipple. A simple task, and takes a couple passes with a file on the nipple bottom.
Third, remove the lock, and oil the insides! The lube they use get s stiff and full of crud.
You got a fine rifle there. It is not really an Hawken, more a modern Leman half stock with one retainer. You can get iron furniture from the Hawken shop to replace the brass. I did that when I first got started, and it makes a great addition. Later, I blind riveted the underrib I got from Dixie Gun works. Made a stylin rifle. My wife has one I upgraded and with the stock barrel, I use 60-70gns of Pyrodex RS.
We are slow to load, and slow to fire at the range, but we can make it an all day thing. A good day at the range.
If the barrel is rusty from sitting, you can use Valve Grinding Compound as lube on some R.E.A.L.s. I did that with mine and it worked real well. Cleaned it right up.
Good luck with that. It started me on the road.

[Omnivore]

The pillow ticking (a traditional cotton cloth for making pillows) is thicker than some of the other patch cloth, so the proper fit will depend on the size of the ball you're using. You'll probably have to experiment with different ball size and patch thickness to get a good tight fit that can still be loaded after a couple of shots. A super tight fit might shoot really well, but after one shot you'll have a hell of a time getting another patched ball down the bore unless you clean the bore after each shot.

Never attempt to use a cloth patch with a "conical" bullet-- only ball.

Conicals, for some reason, will often shoot more accurately with a felt wad between powder and bullet.

30 grains 3F black powder or Pyrodex under a ball is a very light load for a rifle (I use that much and sometimes more in a revolver) but it might make an excellent plinking load. For hunting, you could stoke it up to 70 or more grains, but make sure that what ever load you use will shoot accurately. A good load will shoot cloverleafs (all holes touching) at 50 yards, and maybe 2 inches or so at 100 yards, consistently, three to five-shot groups. These guns usually aren't considered effective for big game much beyond 100 yards, especially with round balls as they lose velocity rather quickly. Some can make their front-stuffers perfrom at greater distances though. Idaho Ron (a member here) and several others, can tell you a lot, for after you get the basics down.

[pietro]

Unless the barrel's roll-marked with the Hawken moniker, I would first make sure it's a 15/16" (measured across-the-flats) barreled Hawken, or a 13/16" barreled unmarked Seneca - which will not take a strong a load as the heavier barreled Hawken.

(I happen to have such a Seneca, and to the uninitiated, it looks just like a Hawken)

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/8039/dscn0800f.jpg


.

[cailey37]

Unless the barrel's roll-marked with the Hawken moniker, I would first make sure it's a 15/16" (measured across-the-flats) barreled Hawken, or a 13/16" barreled unmarked Seneca - which will not take a strong a load as the heavier barreled Hawken.

(I happen to have such a Seneca, and to the uninitiated, it looks just like a Hawken)

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/8039/dscn0800f.jpg


.


Whew!!! I just measured the barrel and it is 15/16". I'm not sure where the Hawken monker is located??????? But I did verify the barrel.

[OverMax]

I've had my T/C Hawken 45 percussion for years. And have harvested deer with it. If you want Private Message me with questions you have and I'll respond to help you out. The only things I've haven't shot out of mine are rock salt and nails. But have used B/P and Pyrodex, sabots, maxi's, and patched Rd Ball. Enjoy that new smoke pole of yours cailey37.

[izzyjoe]

the early one's did'nt have Hawken on the barrel.

[725]

You got a treasure there. Contact whoever runs T/C nowadays and ask for an owner's manual. Probably free. If not, web search for the manual. Lots of good info.

[gbrown]

I traded for one (percussion) about 20 years ago and have shot many times. It's a blast to shoot and at 100 yds, is quite accurate. Patched ball, minie ball and maxi ball. I have molds for each. I cast pure PB and use TC's bore butter. You can find patches on the web or at a gun shop that has BP supplies. I use BP in mine. Learn the grades of BP 1X, 2X, 3X, and 4X, and their uses. I have not taken game with it, but plan to hunt this season with it. Main thing is to learn to clean and maintain it. Like everything else around here, shooting them thundersticks is kind of addictive.

[cailey37]

I appreciate everyone's help and advise. I went today to a local vendor and was able to pick up five boxes of the C/T Maxi balls for $3.99 a box! It looked like they had been sitting on the shelf for some time and when they didn't ring up the lady on the registered asked the owner how much for these and he was like "sell it to him for $3.99." I quickly picked up four more boxes!
On another note, I believe the rifle is loaded. I ran the ramrod down the barrel and it appears to stop well short of the back of the barrel. Do I throw a cap on there and hope for the best or is there a way to see if there is in fact anything in there?

[gbrown]

No. The ramrod brass end should have a threaded hole in it. That is for the various cleaning tools and for a bullet removal tool. It is made of brass, threaded on one end to attach to ramrod, and it has what looks like a wood screw on the other. Imagine a wood screw with a machine screw where the ws head should be. You attach this to the ramrod and push it down into the bore. Holding it against the boolit with pressure, you turn the ramrod, threading the ws end into the boolit. Once in sufficiently, you pull the ramrod up, extracting the boolit. Measure the barrel from the breach plug to the muzzle and drop the ramrod in and mark it (discreetly) someway. Compare the 2 measurements. From the back end of the breach plug to the front is about 1/2 inch. Then comes the powder and ball which will take up about 1/2 to 3/4 inch. Also, you can remove the nipple that the cap goes on and hold a small flash light up to it (the threaded aperature that the nipple goes in) and look down the bore for light. Just took a pic of the bullet extraction tool. Double click it to get full size. Right size ms, left side like ws.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_195845013208bb39b7.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6069)

[pietro]

There are Co2 driven load expellers, which are directed through the nipple, to expel whatever's in the barrel (provided the bbl's pointed in a safe direction).

If you use the screw-type ball extractor on the ramrod, be sure to put an extension on the RR so there'll be enough to grasp to pull the ball - I use a rubber jar opener to give a better grip on the RR.

AFTER the ball's pulled, use the screw some more to break up whatever powder's in there - since it's been long compacted, and most likely has the consistancy of cured cement.

.

[gbrown]

+1 on pietro's info

[Sven]

I took a piece of 3/8 round stock and drilled and tapped a hole in the end to match my screw-type extractor, and made the rod long enough so I could bend a nice L handle on the end. All of this to help out my wife's brother-in-law who had a charge he couldn't touch off. Turned out he never pulled the set screw and nipple on his Italian Hawken when he cleaned it. My rod worked great, and we got the ball and charge out, and eventually he got the frozen set screw and nipple out and got it shooting again.

Last winter he passed away suddenly and I have his few guns to sell for his two daughters. The other day I got this sudden urge to put the ram rod down the barrell -- just to check. Yep, there's a charge in there again! :roll: Haven't had the time, yet to deal with it, but I will before I list it for sale!

[cailey37]

Well, I purchased a bullet remover today and I tried and tried but couldn't get the thing to budge. Looks like it is a trip to the Gunsmith and see if they can get it out. I also tried using the compressed air removal but it didn't budge.....I think that thing is in there!!!

[gbrown]

+1 on the Gunsmith. Better safe than sorry. No sense tearing up a fine piece of workmanship. Make sure the Gunsmith is one you have trust in!! Some shade tree types out there who can mess up a rock. Mine is knowledgable and trustworthy. As good as the proverbial alchemist who could turn lead into gold.

[OverMax]

What ever is stuck may very well have created a rust ring. May have to look to a replacement barrel set up. Green mountain Drop-in Place barrels are a good way to go. Or call and asked to talk to (John) up in Minnesota at {Track of The Wolf.} He may offer other good ideas on your situation with its stuck ball or two or three. As they do have access to a machine shop.

[cailey37]

What ever is stuck may very well have created a rust ring. May have to look to a replacement barrel set up. Green mountain Drop-in Place barrels are a good way to go. Or call and asked to talk to (John) up in Minnesota at {Track of The Wolf.} He may offer other good ideas on your situation with its stuck ball or two or three. As they do have access to a machine shop.

I hope I don't have a rust ring or anything like that.....what started as a $100 purchase may very well turn into more......it's at the gunsmith now getting a makeover so hopefully the barrel is ok... the gunsmith did say, just looking at it that it seemed like it was in really good condition but I guess you can never know until you get in there.

[whtsmoke]

get a green mountain 54 caliber round ball bbl and have fun with it.

[OverMax]

Well than cailey37 If your G/smith is located in a well known establishment I'm sure He'll get it fixed. As he probably has a couple idea's on how He intends to tackle your project we haven't discussed here yet. What happen to your rifle is not all that uncommon. If there is a little rust your G/Smith has a carload of chemical products He can choose from to resolve the barrels issue. Being the plug is down close to its breech. I don't see a problem with accuracy when its cleared. Sounds like your barrel has pretty good rifling from its plugged area out to it's crown. And that's a plus for your barrel. Helps keep a little green in your wallet too. I would be pleased if you kept us informed on this thread as to what your Smith discovered and how He resolved the issue. I'd appreciate it Sir.

[stronics]

Put a 1/4 x 28 zert fitting in it and pump it full of grease, it will come out.
David

[Boerrancher]

There are a bunch of ML's out there that are left loaded. It is a common problem when buying a used gun. I know it took awhile for me to get the stuck ball out of the one I was given. I think you will be fine once the smith gets the load out. Those T/C Barrels will take a good deal of abuse and still shoot well.

Best wishes,

Joe

[OverMax]

Put a 1/4 x 28 zert fitting in it and pump it full of grease, it will come out.
David Gee I totally forgot that concept. Thanks for the reminder David. I haven't heard anyone mentioning using a grease gun to clear a ball & charge in I bet over 20 years or better. You Sir are spot on with your suggestion. Old school technology. But it sure does work.

[bpd303]

Every time I have gotten a smokepole that seems to have a charge in it, I soak it with Kroil for a couple of days then pull the breach plug. One time I removed three charges from an 1863 Springfield.

[Boerrancher]

One time I removed three charges from an 1863 Springfield.

That is quite common in those old military guns. In the heat of battle with all of the noise, smoke and adrenalin, it was hard to tell if the rifle went off when the trigger was pulled. If I remember correctly the most charges ever found in a serviceable rifle was 18. If you don't think people do strange things when they get excited, 2 different times I have seen 2 different men empty their rifles and not fire a shot. One time was at an Elk and the other time was at a nice whitetail. The man shooting at the elk had a bolt gun and the guy at the deer had a lever gun. Both times they ejected all their unfired rounds on to the ground and couldn't understand why, with all the shots they had fired, the animal never went down and only kept walking.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Tom W.]

I've had my T/C Hawken since 1975 or '76 and found that pocket drill works best with the 440 rb. At one time Butler Creek made Poly Patches, and they really improved the accuracy, but I don't think that they are made any more.. I'll buy them when I find them, mostly in privately owned gun shops...

[cailey37]

Well, I got the gun back from the Gunsmith and he was able to get the bullet out and fix a hairline crack in the wood. I've gone ahead and cleaned the thing out good and finished it off with T/C Bore Butter. I guess all that is left is to take it out and shoot it once or twice to see if I like the thing. Appreciate everyone's comments and help. It may very well sit in the gun cabinet but the thought of bringing it out during deer season is very tempting!!!!