Case rim or head removal

[lukewmtdew]

If using empty cases for a jacket How many swagers remove the case rim?

How do you do it?

[newcastter]

What???

[lukewmtdew]

I mean if you use an empty case for a jacket duh lol

[hardcase54]

Read the sticky,

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=24952

[DukeInFlorida]

No need to remove the rim at all!

Except for the .22 LR brass, and the de-rimming die is one of the tools in the set.

All other calibers, you leave the rims alone.

[lukewmtdew]

I'm surprised the 9mm into 40 cal don't do this more often if shooting in a 40 s&w

Or the 45acp

You think they'd want the extra case capacity

[DukeInFlorida]

There's enough case capacity already.

[dragonrider]

I have only swage a few using BTSnipers dies and I removed the rims and when I do more I will remove the rims. It is only for appearance that I do so. I just don't like how they look with the rims on. Use my lathe for the process.

[DukeInFlorida]

You're certainly free to do whatever you want.

Most of us have found it to be a totally unnecessary step, and not worth the time or effort. I've recovered quite a few of my swaged bullets, and I see rifle engraving on even the rim. So, I think of the rim as being maybe even an additional "gas check".....

Safe shooting, and happy swaging!

[mold maker]

The rim is hidden below the case mouth before its fired, and I doubt you can catch sight of it going down range. De-riming takes too much time per each, so I just ignore it. It would also requires more lead to replace the brass lost, and causes more exposed soft lead on the nose. That may be OK for RFN, but not so good with HP in semi-autos.

[lukewmtdew]

I wish we could like the comments like on Facebook! Lol

[Whistler]

I would really like to remove the rims on my 9mm-made-.40, my Quickload simulations show a fair amount of extra powder room becoming available with the rim removed. This is for 10mm Auto, where I'd like the extra push.

However, if you anneal the case head very thoroughly, you will be able to make bullets where the extractor groove is more or less squished flat. This will give a short enough bullet without having to spend time on removing the rim.

[Fla9-40]

I just received my BT Snipper dies Friday (SWEET) and played with them this weekend. I showed a couple of shooting buddies of mine the results and one of them questioned if the head being left on the swagged boolits would cause barrel wear. Not knowing the answer I suggested the annealing process would soften the brass where this may not be an issue.

What say you?

Here are the first test run:

[MIBULLETS]

The head is just brass, no different on a barrel than a Barnes solid copper bullet really. Anealing will definately make it softer as you suggest, but I would not be worried about any additional barrel wear either way.

Nice looking bullets by the way!

[Fla9-40]

Good point MIBULLETS, did not even think of that!
I did not see where this would be an issue.

Yes they did come out ok, but I do need to tweak them some.
I can't seem to get them below the recommended length of .700 mine have been coming out .713 and longer.
May have to drop the core weight and/or trim the brass a little before annealing

[Whistler]

If you can't get them as short as .680" then your brass and/or alloy is too hard. I make mine .664" with WW alloy and non-trimmed 9x19mm brass. The core I use is the Lee 105gn SWC (weighs 108-109gn with WW).

[lukewmtdew]

Whistler clip on or stick on?

Fla9 nice lookin bullets! How'd you get them so shiny?!?

[Whistler]

Clip on.

[Mountain Prepper]

I would really like to remove the rims on my 9mm-made-.40, my Quickload simulations show a fair amount of extra powder room becoming available with the rim removed.

This is the point that made me switch from my 9mm to .355 bullets into cutting the rim off (and extra brass) so as to get a different profile.

They do work as Duke pointed out, and it is a lot of effort, but if you want max weight and profile for max charges then you may find yourself trimming...

[Fla9-40]

If you can't get them as short as .680" then your brass and/or alloy is too hard. I make mine .664" with WW alloy and non-trimmed 9x19mm brass. The core I use is the Lee 105gn SWC (weighs 108-109gn with WW).

The alloy is just about pure lead, it was off the Lee lead tester (-.10) so it is below 8.0 BHN. I am using the 356-124-2r Lee mold for cores but plan on getting the 356-102 when it gets here.

[Fla9-40]

Whistler clip on or stick on?

Fla9 nice lookin bullets! How'd you get them so shiny?!?

Thanks I kinda like 'em too! ;)

To get them shiny I drop them in Citric Acid and a little vinegar in my sonic cleaner after I anneal them then they go into the tumbler with some Lizard bedding as the media when they dry from the sonic cleaner.

[lukewmtdew]

After the entire bullet is swaged or after annealed before swaging is the tumbling done?

I use walnut lizard bedding too do you use any cleaning agents with the bedding?

[BT Sniper]

Nice work on the bullets Fla9-40. The .700 length recomendation is a number to shoot for in trying to keep the bullets as short as possible. When the bullets get longer they run the risk of engauging the thicker part of the case walls when seated in the live round. So long as the seated bullet doesn't show an excessive bulge in the loaded round and it will chamber in your gun you will be just fine. The exact number may be a bit longer but just try to keep the bullets closer to .700 or shorter.

This shows the point at which the case walls of the 40S&W start to thicken towards the web of teh case.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/2011-1-26010-1.jpg





and this pic shows the excessive bulge that can result from bullets seated to deep or bullet that are too long.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/DSCF0219.jpg

In this case it was thicker CBC 40S&W brass that was the culpret. Not entirely sure on that brand name but it is an odd ball that is heavier and thicker that will show these bulges in the loaded round. Live rounds with such excessive bulges should be discarded. Never try to force one of these rounds into your chamber in an attempt to fire it.

In my opinion it is not a compression of the powder charge that causes potential problems but the problem that will arrise if you attempt to seat a bullet into this thicker protion of the case effectively clamping the case to the base of the bullet and therefor increasing pressure potential. Especially if you tryed to iron out "excessive" buldges with a Lee Factory crimp die.

I do like the Lee FCD and use it with my loaded rounds but just don't expect it to fix a problem caused by a bullet seated too deep.

Simply watch out for buldges and use a bit of comon sence and you will enjoy thousands of rounds sent down range.

Good shooting and Swage On!

BT

[BT Sniper]

It does look like in your pics that you might be able to compress teh rim a little more probably saving you a few thousands in length. Measure the diameter of the rim. Is it between .395 and .400? What where the lengths of teh bullets I made for you that where sent with the dies? I added 4 grains of lead to my 120 grain mold to dupicate the volume of lead your mold whould use.

A good anneal on teh brass will allow for the case head to expand easily and compress slightly giving you the potential for teh shortest bullets for a given wight.

and no the thick brass base of the case whould have no effect on barrel ware vs. standard jackets. I might go so far as to say the annealed brass jackets might actually cause less ware and add a few FPS. I mean the extra zink in brasss vs. commercial jackets should be a good thing, zink has lubricating properties to reduce right?

Anyway, you have very little to worry about concerning barrel ware shooting these bullets. I say good shooting and Swage On!

BT

[Fla9-40]

After the entire bullet is swaged or after annealed before swaging is the tumbling done?

I use walnut lizard bedding too do you use any cleaning agents with the bedding?

I do it after the annealing process, let them dry and then into the tumbler with the lizard bedding and a drier sheet is all.
Then I swage them.

[Fla9-40]

I did take enough lead away to end up with 119.7g.
The finished bullet measured .400 with the length of .689
Here is how it looked loaded:

[BT Sniper]

Looks great!

Good shooting!

BT

[DukeInFlorida]

Add a cannelure to those bullets, and you'll have a real winner!
Brian can help get you a discount on the CH cannelure tool:
http://www.ch4d.com/catalog/bullet/12000

http://www.ch4d.com/media/images/catalog/12000.png
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1070586.jpg


I did take enough lead away to end up with 119.7g.
The finished bullet measured .400 with the length of .689
Here is how it looked loaded:

[Rick459]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=95197

[Fla9-40]

Duke what you trying to do, make me spend money!! ??? :)

I have thought about getting one, need to get better making the bullets first.
I do have it in my wish list anyway!

[BT Sniper]

A cannalure grove will help to hold the jacket to the core but a cannalure groove is not needed with a 40 cal when using a tapper crimp die vs. a roll crimp on somthing like a 44mag where a cannalure is a must.

It does make the bullets look cool though :)

BT

[DukeInFlorida]

Brian, I find that it (cannelure) helps a lot when loading bullets for max effect. Sometimes, the recoil of the gun, if stout enough, will cause some setback (bullet pulls out of case slightly). By running a cannelure around the bullet, even with a taper crimp, you get a much better connection between the case and the bullet. Especially when BOTH are the same brass. It's otherwise sometimes difficult to crimp the brass case into the brass bullet.

I run some very stout 44 mags, and it's almost a must have situation for those in the revolver (rolled crimp).

But, even some of the stout .40's are getting a cannelure in my reloads.

Some day, I really need to better automate the cannelure production, MY hands hurt after an hour of cranking that CH4D tool.

[BT Sniper]

Yep! If you guys that cannalure a lot of bullets ever find a good deal on a used Corbin powered cannalure machine it will pay for it's self with teh first bullet. One was offered to me long ago for $265. I started offering improved swage dies for sale to cover the cost......... 4 years later..... PRICELESS! :)

[DukeInFlorida]

No used ones currently on the market.

I did find this old thread from a couple years ago:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=70421

Some good ideas there.

Brian.... does the Corbin use a fixed radius outer block, and changeable cannelure wheels (one for every bullet diameter?)

If so, something like that would be not that difficult to make. Or, maybe could buy a set of the cannelure wheels from Corbin, and machine the rest in house (I;d have to have someone do that for me)

HCT-1 --------- Hand Cannelure Tool (22-72 jacketed) -------- $ 149.00
* HCT-1W -------- Spare .05" wide std. cannelure wheel ----------- 25.00
* HCT-2 --------- Lead Bullet Knurling Tool (22-72 cal) --------- 149.00
* HCT-2W -------- Bullet Knurling roller kit (3)------------------ 75.00
* HCT-3 --------- Lead Bullet 2-Groove Tool (22-72 cal) --------- 149.00
* HCT-3W -------- Spare 2-Groove wheel --------------------------- 25.00
* HCT-WC -------- Custom wheel, made to your specifications ----- 150.00
* HCT-2HC ------- Custom hard roller knurling tool -------------- 350.00
* HCT-2WH ------- Hardened knurling roller/axle kit only -------- 250.00

* PCM-2 --------- Power Cannelure Machine w/std. wheel ---------- 699.00
* PCM-W --------- Additional standard cannelure or knurling wheel- 75.00
* PCM-WC -------- Custom cannelure wheel, made to your specs ---- 150.00
* PCM-S --------- Height spacer kit, .025 & .048" (5-pcs) -------- 10.00
* PCM-P --------- Back plate for PCM-2 (spare) ------------------- 95.00
* PCM-PL -------- Knurling Back Plate for PCM-2 ----------------- 189.00
* PCM-PC -------- Custom Machined Back plate for PCM-2----------- 189.00
* PCM-F --------- Carousel support, send sample bullets --------- 289.00
* PCM-FC -------- Carousel support, custom for cases/cartridges - 349.00

[MIBULLETS]

Duke, I believe the Corbin hand tool uses a set screw to set it for different bullet diameters. The different wheels he offers are for different configurations, like a double cannelure or something different like that.

If you are talking about the powered tool, I have not seen one, hopefully Brian will enlighten us.

[MIBULLETS]

I just looked at Corbins site and found this statement...

Each machine comes with one specific diameter of cannelure wheel for the caliber of bullet you wish to use. Sample bullets with the specification for depth and position allow us to set up the machine for you before shipping, and test it with your own bullets to assure your satisfaction.

[BT Sniper]

No used ones currently on the market.


Brian.... does the Corbin use a fixed radius outer block, and changeable cannelure wheels (one for every bullet diameter?)



Yep! Exactly. Each caliber will require a seperate additional wheel @ $75 each. I have collected most of them. If I wasn't so busy and backed up on dies I would offer cannaluring services. The machine is awesome that's for sure!

BT

[DukeInFlorida]

You can't change the diameter of the knurled wheel without also changing the radius'd block that the bullets roll against. It has to have the same radius as the knurled wheel. So, those come as a set of two parts, Brian?

A straight rail, with a straight knurled bar, which could be adjustable for distance from the straight rail, might be another way to do this.

In the fastener manufacturing world, threads are put on screw blanks with a thread rolling machine, which uses two flat blocks with the threads engraved on them:
http://youtu.be/D86R8A3WI6o

and another one of this type, showing how fast it puts a thread on a screw blank:
http://youtu.be/q9wcbeCY3rk

At the end of this training film, it shows in slow motion how the plates work to roll the threads. Same could be simply done with a knurl:
http://youtu.be/PrHTM7bjpFg

There's also a roller machine that works a bit different than the Corbin:
http://youtu.be/guE4BC_M89c

[BT Sniper]

Nope,

Only need one "set" radius back wall then the knurled wheels are different diameter for the desired bullet calliber. At least that is how it is on the corbin machine.

BT

[DukeInFlorida]

From a straight geometry standpoint, I would have thought that the radius of the back wall would have to match the radius of the knurled wheels. Or else, the bullets would get pinched in the middle area of the knurling, and be too loose between the wheel and back wall at the beginning and end of the knurling process.

Draw two circles on a piece of paper, one a smaller diameter than the other, and then try to nest the circles together. Don't you want a constant spacing all around, between the back wall and the knurled wheel?

[lukewmtdew]

Duke that first video is a guy putting threads on bolts?

[lukewmtdew]

Never mind I watched the instructional video

That's really cool I never knew how they made bolts

[DukeInFlorida]

yes, all of the videos I referenced are on that same subject: Putting threads on bolts/screws.

The days of "cut threads" are long gone.

My point of the videos was that if you can emboss or impress a thread on a screw/bolt, why not impress/emboss a knurl on a bullet?

[MIBULLETS]

Interesting videos!

[lukewmtdew]

Sounds like it would work!

[lukewmtdew]

I'm really bad at having multiple posts when they should have been in one but I'm on a phone so it makes it harder I apologize

Are you talking cut threads with a die?

[DukeInFlorida]

They are NOT "cut" threads. Cut threads are where you REMOVE material from the shank of the screw/bolt.

These are rolled threads, where the threads are displaced/created by a die. No material is removed.