Various problems: desperately need help

[arthury]

[1]
After the cast bullet is dropped out of the mold and I sat it on the table upright and when I looked at it directly from above (i.e. vertically at 90 degrees), I noticed that the bullet is slightly sagging to one side.
When I rotated the bullet, the sagging side does not rotate with the bullet! I am now wondering if the line left on the bullet's flat nose (caused by the separation between the halves of the mold) is causing an optical illusion on my eyes.

[2]
Also, along way, the mold starts to show light permeating through the cracks when held up against the sky. It appears that when the mold expands due to the heat, that's when it is no longer true when clamped together. Fins on bullet nose started to form every now and then.

[3]
This 3rd test session came out to be a disaster. Spent lots of time fighting with the stupid mold than troubleshooting casting techniques. Somehow both molds (500SW and 44 mag) are giving me wrinkly bullets no matter how I raised or lowered the temperature; whether the mold was hot or not.

[4]
FYI: Fluxing was done every 15mins or so with wood shavings and candle wax. Some books say keep the layer of sooty black stuffs on the surface so as to prevent tin oxidation. Do I need to remove them if they are beginning to show up embedded on the surface of the cast bullets? I also do not want to remove the tin.
Temperature : tried 650, 700, 750, 800 deg F and none ironed out the wrinkle issue.

Any thots?

[Kraschenbirn]

I'd say you need to head back towards Square #1. You don't mention whether your moulds are aluminum, iron, or brass but, if it were me, I'd let those moulds cool down to room temp and give them a really good cleaning...like start by scrubbing out the cavities with an old toothbrush and dishwashing detergent, rinse thoroughly, and repeat. Let 'em air-dry, clean the cavities again - this time with alcohol and cotton swab. That "wrinkle issue" you're experiencing...regardless of your pot temp...smells like dirty mould cavities to me.

Next, if your mould(s) don't show light between the blocks when they're cold but do show light when they're "hot"...along with those 'fins'...could be telling you that you're running you pot way too hot. Again, you didn't state what alloy/mix you're using but, unless you're casting close to pure lead (like for BPCR or M/L boolits), your 'sweet spot' temp oughta be around 650 F. (+/- 25 deg. or so).

Also, don't worry 'bout removing the tin from your alloy...ain't ever gonna happen at boolit casting temps. I prefer bottom-pour pots so, when fluxing with sawdust/wood shavings, I just put it on top of my melt, stir it in, let the flux rise back to the top, and leave it on top of my melt to retard surface oxidation. If/when I add more alloy, I just drop the ingots through the flux coating, restir when they're melted, and go back to casting. Of course, this assumes you're working with 'clean' alloy to begin with...the alloy I add as I'm working has already been fluxed/skimmed (at least!) twice before it was cast into ingots.

Bill

[fryboy]

+ 1 "and give them a really good cleaning"

if aluminum a overnite soak in mineral spirits isnt out of line , one quick way to tell ? and keep in mind that this is just a quick mask that has it's own problems , take a bic lighter and gently smoke ( cover in soot ) the cavities , it doesnt have to be heavy , in fact heavy is a whole nother problem but i digress , then try casting again , if you no longer get wrinkles a super duper clean and scrub is in order ( i'd do it anyways on a new to me mold - saves later aggravation )

[Pb2au]

+2 on cleaning the mold.
Scrub with soapy water, rinse, repeat, air dry.
I'm with the others, the odds are on that there is oil/crud/crunk in the mold cavity.
I'm guessing you are using an aluminum mold, so getting it to temp should not be a problem. But as stated previously, over temp could be an issue.
Check out the stickies, there are hours of reading there, lots of excellent info.
When you get frustrated, stop, breathe, relax and start over.

[462]

Wrinkled boolits are a product of:
1. A mould that is not clean enough
2. A mould that is not hot enough
Others have mentioned the fix for number one.
To fix number two, pre-heat the mould, preferably on a hot plate. Better yet, a mould "oven" on a hot plate.

If your boolits have crud in or on them, you aren't fluxing properly.

If the mould is a Lee, and you can see daylight between the halves -- whether it's hot or cold -- it needs to be returned. If it's an RCBS or Lyman, tapping the alignment pins in a bit should make it right.

[paul h]

3/4 you're not getting your molds up to temp and the time you waste by unnecessary additional cleaning of the melt is causing your molds to get cold again.

The typical beginners mistake is to not let the molds get good and hot, and to cast too slow which keeps the mold from running at opperating temps. Keep it simple, start with clean ww's, get your molds up to temp so that you are dropping well frosted completely filled out bullets from your molds. Don't try and trouble shoot, just cast as fast as you can to get the molds hot and keep them hot. Eventually when you are well up to temp you'll find it takes awhile for the sprues to harden and go from shiny to frosty, and that's the point to cut them.

Once you've cast several hundred bullets that pass visual inspection for being completely filled out, then lube/size them, load them, and see how they shoot. Don't agonize about weighing them, don't agonize about measuring each and every one. So long as they are properly filled out, they should shoot well. Now, if properly filled out bullets aren't shooting well, then you can agonize and troubleshoot. There is nothing to troubleshoot if you haven't shot the bullets yet.

[John Boy]

arthury, Clean mold is a MUST. Then
* Warm the mold up and the melt in the pot (with a thermometer for the melt) so the pot temp is between 680 and 700 degrees
* I hope you are using a ladle because it produces the best bullets. Anyway, put the ladle spout tight into the sprue hole and pour for 5 seconds with a good sprue puddle
* Then look at the puddle. It should frost in 5 seconds. If it doesn't, adjust melt temp either way
* Then cut the sprue and drop the bullet onto a thick cotton towel.
..... Then keep your casting rhythm constant

Good Luck!

[dragonrider]

You are fluxing too much, not that it will remove the tin but you are just wasting time. Flux once before you start casting, after that just stir it up with a wood stick anytime you add more lead. Ladle or bottom pour. I prefer bottom pour, ladleing is just another step in between your lead pot and your mold and your lead is cooling during this time. You mention the temps so I guess you are using a thermometer. If using an aluminum mold keep your temp at 750 to 800. I also believe you mold cavities are dirty, if you are smoking the cavities, DON'T. Put noting in the cavities except lead. Clean it again as mentioned above, smoke in the cavities acts like an insulator and the lead cools too quickly because it is not getting the heat from the mold to keep it liquid a bit longer. Once you pour if the sprue solidifies in 5 to 6 seconds it is just about right, but that can vary also from mold to mold. But as a rule of thumb less than that and the mold may to too cold, more and it may be too hot.
Don't give up and keep us posted.

[mortre]

Wrinkled boolits are a product of:
1. A mould that is not clean enough
2. A mould that is not hot enough
Others have mentioned the fix for number one.
To fix number two, pre-heat the mould, preferably on a hot plate. Better yet, a mould "oven" on a hot plate.

+1

I am new to this as well, and cleaning my mould(s) helped tremendously! I didn't get fancy with it. Just a toothbrush, palm olive(don't forget to put the bottle back or the wife gets mad), and warm water. Only spent about 5 minutes on the mould total and threw it on a hot plate do dry it off. That cured the largest part of my problem. Pre-heating the mould on a hotplate fixed the rest. I was still getting wrinkles the first few casts, but after 10 or so that stopped. Also let me get the mould temp high enough that cutting the sprue with gloved hands was downright easy with my pot set to 675 degrees.

[arthury]

Thanks, everyone.

Mold Hygiene
I followed your suggestions to stop casting and re-clean both molds (Lyman and RCBS).
Raw materials used for Lyman and RCBS molds are lead-steel and cast iron, respectively.
I will disassemble them and re-clean one more time just to be sure.

Alignment
They both have alignment pins, so I put both halves together and hammer them with a plastic mallet. And, just a few whacks, the alignment issue went away.

Results
Started casting again, and obviously the fins went away because alignment is good now.
Wrinkling and embedded dirt are still there but less.

Dross vs Oxidized Tin
About the dirt (looks like soil) that are floating on molten lead, am I supposed to remove them or leave them there? Some books say leave them to reduce tin oxidation, others, say skim the dross away. Well, if I skim the dross away, the oxidized tin will be scooped away, too. How do you guys handle this?

Pouring technique
When you pour it from the ladle (dripper), do you mate the spout of the dripper directly with the sprue hole or do you keep an inch distance? Any other techniques?

[turmech]

keep casting don't inspect as you cast. after enough casting you will have to reach casting temp for the mold. once you do you will notice the sprue stays liq for a few seconds before becomeing solid. then you will know the mold and alloy are up to temp.

[Larry Gibson]

arthury

Pouring technique
When you pour it from the ladle (dripper), do you mate the spout of the dripper directly with the sprue hole or do you keep an inch distance? Any other techniques?

Assuming right handed;

hold mold in left hand with sprue plate 90 degrees to the right.

Dip the dipper through the alloy submerging it and give it a slight swirl in the alloy.

Bring dipper out of the alloy full of alloy with the spout to the left.

Mate the spout to the sprue hole.

Holding both over the pot rotate both mould and dipper together counter clockwise until the mold is on the bottom.

As soon as the cavity is full lift the dipper spout off the sprue plate and allow a good sprue to form on the sprue plate. It's ok for some run off which is why you hold it over the pot.

Set the dipper back in the pot to keep it hot.

Let the sprue harden, open sprue plate and knock on handle joint with mallet to remove bullets.

If using a multi cavity mould do each cavity as above seperately.

With smaller bullets and some alloys you can sometimes get away with just pouring a countinuous stream into all the cavities but even with small bullets it is best to fill each cavity seperately using the above technique.

Larry Gibson

[Baryngyl]

Dross vs Oxidized Tin
About the dirt (looks like soil) that are floating on molten lead, am I supposed to remove them or leave them there? Some books say leave them to reduce tin oxidation, others, say skim the dross away. Well, if I skim the dross away, the oxidized tin will be scooped away, too. How do you guys handle this?



Flux real good, skim the first time to get rid of all the crud.
Flux a second time and leave it on top.
This is using my bottom pour pot, if I was using a ladle I think I would keep all the dross skimmed of to keep from dipping some up and pouring into my mould.

Michael Grace

[LongPoint]

When I ladle cast, the spout is in contact with the sprue plate. The ladle and mold are rotated together to pour and held for a 3 count, the ladle is rotated away and a small sprue is left. I do not leave a huge sprue as this type of pouring will produce beautiful boolits in a clean, properly heated mold. It does NOT hurt to lightly smoke the cavities on a cranky mold. The soot does act as an insulator so the mold fills better because the mold is not sinking heat from the alloy as fast. Not the other way around. Keep it up, it will come together.

LongPoint

[375RUGER]

That 500 mould will want to be filled fast don't dribble. Cold mould will just compound the wrinkling issue. I usually put the first 2 pours back in the pot cause they will wrinkle a bit while the mould heats up. Preheat with a hot plate or propane torch to minimize this.
With time you will be able to watch the sprue and know whether or not the mould is at a good temp.

[arthury]

I was not going to be able to go to bed tonight without a successful batch and so, I tried it again with your suggestions.

Poured it with spout and sprue hole in full contact.
Made sure the mold is hot.
I scooped up the dirt.

The success rate went up, at least, fourfold. Thanks, guys!

Hair-like lead on the sides:
The only small issue right now is that there are small little hair-like lead emanating from the side of quite many bullets. Looks like the lead has flowed out into the vent lines.

[462]

"Hair-like lead on the sides:
The only small issue right now is that there are small little hair-like lead emanating from the side of quite many bullets. Looks like the lead has flowed out into the vent lines."

The mould isn't completely closing.
1. With the mould mounted on the handles, close it and check to make sure there isn't any visible light between the mould halves.
2. Check for lead smears on the mould faces. Even the smallest amount can cause problems.

[arthury]

"Hair-like lead on the sides:
The only small issue right now is that there are small little hair-like lead emanating from the side of quite many bullets. Looks like the lead has flowed out into the vent lines."

The mould isn't completely closing.
1. With the mould mounted on the handles, close it and check to make sure there isn't any visible light between the mould halves.
2. Check for lead smears on the mould faces. Even the smallest amount can cause problems.

Good point.
I do not think I have problem [1] because I checked for light peeping out of cracks every now and then.
I'll check for problem [2].
Thanks!

[Bret4207]

Sometimes when you get the mould nice and hot and the melt has good flow characteristics (enough tin!) you'll get those little whiskers. It's just what you thought- the alloy is getting into the vent lines. When that happens you are almost certain to have very well filled out boolits. Perfect boolit fillout is far, far more important than tiny whiskers, IOW- it ain't broke, so don't worry about it.

On the ladle technique- Larry gave you the text book method. Spout to sprue contact works for a lot of moulds. For some moulds it just doesn't. Don;t be afraid to try air gap pouring, where the ladle is a bit above the sprue hole and you pour into it. I have a couple moulds that demand this method, and of course with multi cavity moulds it's just the most logical way to do it. Don;t be afraid to experiment a bit.

[Wayne Smith]

You are ladle pouring and disturbing the top of the melt each time you pour. That's what I do as well. You need a relatively clean top of the melt. I skim off any solid dirt looking stuff. The tin/antimony will appear as an oxidized skim on the top of the melt, not as discrete pieces of something solid. This skim does eventually need to be fluxed back into the melt. The discrete particles need to be taken off. I have found, especially when my heat gets too high, that I may have to flux once or twice when casting large boolits - 45-70 or 500 size boolits. That's once or twice in casting 70-100 boolits.

[largom]

I preheat my molds on a hot-plate but you could hold a corner of your mold in your alloy long enough that no lead sticks to the mold corner when you lift it out. Your mold is now hot enough and might cast frosty boolits which does not hurt anything. Now you have to cast fast enough to prevent your mold from cooling down. Don't inspect your boolits while casting, inspect later and any rejects can be remelted for your next casting session.

Larry

[arthury]

Nice insights, Bret4207 and Wayne.
I guess I'm, indeed, fluxing once too often.
About air pouring, I don't seem to get as much success with the 500SW compared to "kissing the sprue" method. I'm guessing the direct contact method fills the hole much faster than the air poured one?

I'll keep your suggestions in mind. It's a whole new world for me and it gives a new perspective and appreciation when I am assembling cartridges at the press.

[Bret4207]

I don't know that it's filling faster, but rather that you have good venting and that the mould likes your method. I have a 358156 that DEMANDS air drop pouring. Treat each mould as an individual and you'll see better results. Some moulds needs the spout in contact with the sprue plate, others don't care, some you need to hit the sprue plate off center so there's a swirling action, some get by fine with tiny nipple like sprues, others need the whole plate covered every cast or they get voids in the base. Each one is a little different. Play around int his game and sooner or later you'll find an odd duck that won;t respond to anything but one particular way of casting.

[arthury]

Thanks to you, I was able to cast a small batch for testing.

Guess what I used for lubing? Regular car wax. :smile:

At 50 ft, I thot the Keith style 250gr mated pretty well with the Lil' Gun powder on my S&W 629 5".

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8019/7646836694_ee1c3e2e12_c.jpg

[Baryngyl]

I was going to post this yesterday but had problems getting the photo off my phone.
This is from one of my reloading books.
http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz263/Baryngyl/Bulletwiskers-1.jpg
Looks like several people already said this but this explains a bit about why.

Michael Grace

[arthury]

Thanks, Michael.
That's a detailed piece of useful info.

BTW, what book is this?

[Wayne Smith]

Nice insights, Bret4207 and Wayne.
I guess I'm, indeed, fluxing once too often.
About air pouring, I don't seem to get as much success with the 500SW compared to "kissing the sprue" method. I'm guessing the direct contact method fills the hole much faster than the air poured one?

I'll keep your suggestions in mind. It's a whole new world for me and it gives a new perspective and appreciation when I am assembling cartridges at the press.

I don't know the process but I've always found that the bigger the boolit the more I need the direct pour method. Smaller boolits I can air pour. My 457122 (320gr Gould HP) requires direct contact. My 420gr 45-70 six cavity group buy doesn't demand direct contact but works better with it.

[WILCO]

Great thread with all the right answers! Plus I learned a thing or two. Thanks fellas.

[Char-Gar]

[1]
After the cast bullet is dropped out of the mold and I sat it on the table upright and when I looked at it directly from above (i.e. vertically at 90 degrees), I noticed that the bullet is slightly sagging to one side.
When I rotated the bullet, the sagging side does not rotate with the bullet! I am now wondering if the line left on the bullet's flat nose (caused by the separation between the halves of the mold) is causing an optical illusion on my eyes.

STOP SETTING THE BULLET UPRIGHT WHILE IT IS STILL WARM! DON'T PICK IT UP UNTIL IT IS ROOM TEMP AND CAN BE PICKED UP WITH YOUR BARE HAND.

[2]
Also, along way, the mold starts to show light permeating through the cracks when held up against the sky. It appears that when the mold expands due to the heat, that's when it is no longer true when clamped together. Fins on bullet nose started to form every now and then.

MOST LIKELY FLECKS ON LEAD ON THE MOULD BLOCK FACES. CLEAN IT OFF.



[3]
This 3rd test session came out to be a disaster. Spent lots of time fighting with the stupid mold than troubleshooting casting techniques. Somehow both molds (500SW and 44 mag) are giving me wrinkly bullets no matter how I raised or lowered the temperature; whether the mold was hot or not.

MOST LIKELY THE MOULD OR MELT IS TOO COLD. HOWEVER SOME ALUMINUM MOULDS WILL THROW BAD BULLETS UNTIL THE CAVITIES ARE SMOKED OR OTHERWISE TREATED.

[4]
FYI: Fluxing was done every 15mins or so with wood shavings and candle wax. Some books say keep the layer of sooty black stuffs on the surface so as to prevent tin oxidation. Do I need to remove them if they are beginning to show up embedded on the surface of the cast bullets? I also do not want to remove the tin.
Temperature : tried 650, 700, 750, 800 deg F and none ironed out the wrinkle issue.

YOUR ARE WAY OVERFLUXING. THAT IS NOT CAUSING YOUR WRINKLE PROBLEM. WHEN THE MELT IS AT THE RIGHT TEMP, FLUX ONCE AND PLACE ABOUT 1/2 OF CLAY KITTY LITTER ON TOP AND DON'T FLUX AGAIN. PREHEADED ALLOY INGOTS CAN BE ADDED ON TOP OF THE LITTER AND THEY WILL SINK. DON'T ADD TO MANY AT ONE TIME, AND YOU CAN CONTINUE TO CAST WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT THE MELT TEMP BEING LOWERED.

[arthury]

My moulds are leaded-steel and cast iron & smoking them with a BBQ grill lighter did help.

[Char-Gar]

Such products are no popular among some folks on this board, but I have been coating the cavities of my moulds with NEI Mold-Prep, for at least 25 years with no bad results and it often helps a lot in the production of good bullets at the beginning of the casting session.

[Baryngyl]

Thanks, Michael.
That's a detailed piece of useful info.

BTW, what book is this?
RCBS Cast Bullet Manual #1


Michael Grace

[Bret4207]

My moulds are leaded-steel and cast iron & smoking them with a BBQ grill lighter did help.

If you have to smoke them to get good boolits the mould is likely still contaminated or needs a few more heating/cooling cycles, especially aluminum molds. If it needs smoking to help release the boolits, you need to read the "Leementing" stickies and get rid of the burrs causing this.

I'm not a fan of putting anything in my mould cavities. Smoke or mould release insulates the mould from needed heat and if too heavily applied can result in reduced diameter boolits. It will also block your venting. I know some people have great success with smoking and various release agents, and that's fine. It is just a band aid for whatever the real issue is though. You're choice, do as you will. Just offering up my observation on the subject.