Need some clarification on some 12 ga reloads

[x101airborne]

I finally had some time tonight after all the company left and was able to get the little MEC out for some one on one time. Now I have read the Advantages V manual, the 4th edition Lyman Shotshell Manual, various BPI pamphlets, internet research and almost all information I have been able to find and absorb for the last couple of weeks. The Lyman manual was the best for pure basic knowledge and for laying out the basic process. The Advantages manual was the best for performance based loading. But NEITHER manual gave just a real good explanation of wad seating pressure. Now, I understand that this is but one aspect of shotshell loading, but after tonight I have realized that different wad seating pressures have a profound effect on crimp. Not enough wad seating pressure and charges dont set right and then crimps can pop. And at first when using only 30 pounds of seating pressure, my crimps (8 point crimps on Federal Gold Medal hulls) were popping while I watched. Then I tried 45 pounds of seating pressure and crimps improved. BUT..... I began getting a little swirl in the center of the fold. Not real bad, but it made some of my crimps have a slight ring around the outside top of the loaded shell. So I tried less pressure and more pressure and adjusted crimp depth up and down and I finally feel I got it right. But my question is....... Why is this such an overlooked aspect of shotshell reloading when it is quite possibly the most important? I even went back and checked all my books and NONE of them had much to say about crimp and the effects on the loaded shells. I just dont get it.

[geargnasher]

You and I are having the same issues, so let me run my mouth about my very similar newbie experiences and then the pros can straighten us BOTH out!

I spent an hour on the phone with my FIL a few days ago discussing this very thing. I was thinking that plastic wads needed the 30-50 lbs of pressure that the fiber wads called for, made sense to me, but I was crushing the cushions on my wads easily by hand, leaning on the Lee tool on a tabletop. I'd seat a wad, go to the next, look back, and the wad would be creeping back out of the shell, pushing the petals out of the case mouth! He told me he only uses about 10 lbs of pressure to seat the wad, he said "just" compress the collapsible section, essentially "break" it ever so slightly from it's cast form so it knows what to do when the powder punts it in the butt. What you DON'T want to do is crush it down when you seat it, because it won't spring back fully until some time later, when your boxes are bulging out the sides and shot is going everywhere. I figured out the problem I was having was trapped air under the wad. If I held the wad down with 10 lbs of pressure on a bathroom scale for about 10-15 seconds, the wads stayed put.

The second problem was getting the crimp made without crushing the wad. At least you have a MEC to work with, there's no stop on the Lee hand tool to keep from dishing the crimp. Just as it almost gets formed nicely, the wad gives up and the whole shot column drops out from under the crimp and voila! Roll crimp! Well, not exactly. Anyway, it takes less presssure than you think to seat the wad without crushing it too much, and if you use too much pressure when seating, they crimps will bust later as the wad expands. I'm sure you've figured out it's all about dimensions of the powder/wad/shot column and stop settings on the tool.

I don't know if that helped any, but at least you're not alone with the issues.

Gear

[35remington]

I think it doesn't get mentioned much.......because most of the time, it doesn't warrant mentioning as much. What I'm saying will not differ from Gear's comments to any significant degree.

I've loaded a lot of different combinations of wads, slugs, and shot, and most of the time, in most of those instances, wad fit and proper crimp had more to do with producing a good shell than anything else. Good crimp has more to do with crimp adjustment and wad fit than wad pressure forcing the load components to fit. If you've got to crush the wad, and crush the collapse section to get the load to fit, perhaps a wad with a shorter crush section, and therefore a lower floor for the shot, would be a better idea.

Minor differences in wads do occur, even in supposedly identical capacities, among the various brands and their clones.

As long as there is some wad pressure, whether by feel or by the MEC spring loaded scale, things usually work out. Heavy or substantial wad pressure with plastic wads seems like a bad idea to me. When wad pressure seemed critical to the load, it usually turned out that I had the crimp portion of the adjustment misadjusted. And sometimes changes over the years can influence things.

Let me give an early example from the loading career. I've been loading shotshells since I was 13, and the shotshell was my first centerfire handloading experience.

I favor the Federal paper basewad shells for 1 1/2 ounce loading, but for the life of me I couldn't see how Alliant (Hercules at the time) could get an actual 1 1/2 ounce of shot in the shell without buckling the shell in the middle using 26.5 grains of Herco and the SP12 wad. Wad pressure seemed to solve it, but only for a few shells, until fiddling with the crimp proved that load space was obtained in a more correct fashion by reducing the depth of the annular ridge around the shell above the crimp and therefore the overall "squeeze" of the load into the limited space available.

If the wad is designed to fit, then any wad pressure sufficient to seat the wad over the powder with no gap should......and note I said "should" be correct. Pre crushing the crush section seems to imply that the shot/wad/shell combination is not as it should be. And it may not.

There have also been slight capacity changes between the original and now current AA cases that sometimes influences things. So slightly older data is a little less correct in terms of fit.

[Silver Hand]

I loaded many - many federal hi brass cases and some with low brass also. I liked the ounce and a half lead load so much I had to put up with sizing the hi brass and used a separate station and tool to hold the case and re crimp the loaded shell. To hold the crimp I placed a small washer or two on top of the case centered inside the folds and crimped it again in a sizing die [a separate station], then picked out the washers. After all that I dropped a bit of wax on my crimp to keep it closed and water tight. Never had a problem with the wax shooting ducks with the old light twelve, auto five.
Federal cases were the most difficult to reload but there are some nice loads listed for that case.
The simplest case to reload was the WW-AA.
I can say tight patterns work best over decoys, you get there with lower speed of the shot column and WW-AA work best for that also.
Lyman shot shell hand book 2nd Addition 1976 page 136
No wad pressure is listed in this old book for my favorite field load, that I see.
Case Fed. Champion - Paper or Hi power Plastic cases only
Powder WW 540 -34.5 grains
Winchester Primer 209
Wad Remington power piston#RP12
2-3/4'' case - Shot Lead 1-1/2 oz - 1285 Velocity FPS/- 9960 LUP Pressure. Mod choke.
I took many many hundreds of Ducks and Geese with this load. Do not duplicate it unless you see it in a book. I might of missed something!

[heathydee]

The little swirl in the center of the crimp can be avoided by raising the crimp starter about an eighth of an inch .

[x101airborne]

Well, I just checked and the only shells that the crimp even expanded on were the ones that only had 30 pounds of wad pressure. I went out and re-checked my press setup and my crimp starter is all the way up, so that is a no-go. I dont know what else to do to solve the little swirley on my shells. I double checked my powder charge, shot charge and even filled an unloaded wad with my shot charge and it fully fills the cup, but does not overfill it. SO.... I am almost thinking that the swirley in the crimp is taking up the extra hull length intended to fit the wad into the hull without crushing it. And hence, blowing out my crimps as the wads try to expand.

[para45lda]

Diehard shotshell reloaders beware: this post may offend you.

After struggling with all the challenges addressed in the postings above, I messed up and bought an adjustable bar for my 9000G. Now I seat the wad firmly (not crushed) then adjust my shot volume to give me a perfect crimp.

This may not work for you and is not in any book I've ever read. BUT none of the birds (clay or live) knew the difference.

Please be gentle with your criticisms.

Wes

[x101airborne]

LOL Wes. The adjustable shot / charge bar is going to be my next purchase, for sure!

I went out AGAIN and double checked some things.
The crimp starter was already as high as it would go, so I pulled it apart and removed the height adjustment washer. I just happened to have a galvanized washer in the shop the same circumference and swapped the two out. This did in fact dramatically lessen the swirley thingy on the finished shells. It also increased overall shell length enough that it was no longer necessary to cram the wad down with more than 20 pounds of pressure. Now I did take the final crimp station and turn it down another 1/4th of a turn to make a more definate crimp ring. As I speak, the next 25 loaded rounds are sitting on the bench for inspection.

Heath.... you were spot on!

[tomme boy]

As long as it is a firm crimp, don't worry if it is swirled. I have a bunch of factory shells that are the same way.

What I do when I load shot is to crimp the shell two times. Each time I hold it down for about 3-5 sec. They don't tell you in any books, but it makes the crimp look a lot better this way. Try it. It helps for some of the stubborn crimps.

[shotman]

the adj bar is best way to go Best to stay with ONE wad.
the old AA hulls is not same as new
every time you change hulls its a new game Powder will change things too. red dot dont load like herco > blue dot dont load same .
If you want uniform stay with same hull and same load . for that line of shells

[UNIQUEDOT]

After struggling with all the challenges addressed in the postings above, I messed up and bought an adjustable bar for my 9000G. Now I seat the wad firmly (not crushed) then adjust my shot volume to give me a perfect crimp.


This is the best advice as a properly filled hull will give you a perfect crimp with a perfect taper every time. Your loaded shells should drop right in and fall right out of any chamber. The best loads do not need any wad pressure (modern wads only) as it will be applied by the crimp, but you have to use properly filled loads in the hulls you are using. The great thing about the mec is that you can raise the crimp starter to get a proper crimp when it's swirled or lower it if it isn't fully formed when loading less than ideal loads. Or you can use the adjustable charge bar and get an exact load. I load mostly sts hulls when using my sizemaster and it is set up for 40lbs. of wad pressure (and is never changed on that press) which is ideal for the different loads i load in those hulls with the wads/shot charges i use in them. When using my Lee presses i will find a load that doesn't need any wad pressure at all to get a perfect crimp with a tapered rim. With these loads the wad pressure is applied by the crimp and is the same every time, but sometimes i will want a load that isn't perfect and i will have to fool with the wad pressure by feel on the Lee's to get a good taper.