45-70 Hunting loads eh

[Driller640]

Hello, I got my marlin guide a couple of months ago, still waiting for Lee 405 .457 mould to come in eh. Would like to know if any of u have a hunting load for Deer , Moose, Elk eh. How hard is your bullet, weight, nose, and powder charge eh ? Also, how it performed and said critters eh? Any info would great, thanks a 1000 eh!!

[Jim]

Hey, Driller,I'm new here and still learnin my way around but what does "EH" mean?

[Scrounger]

Same as "comprende" which we hear a lot in the Southwest. I imagine it's origin is in the speech of the two dominant cultures there, French and English. Because of the two languages and various accents involved, "eh" is tacked on to the end of each statment to ascertain whether or not the other person understood what you said. As good an explanation as any.

[Curtis44]

I use a load consisting of 5gr sr4759 plus enough FG dropped through a 24" tube. to fill the case so i get about 1/16" compression when seating a 420 gr lyman (a very similar bullet to the Lee) 457193 cast 1/20 tin and lead. I also put a .060 fiber wad on top of the FG. Very accurate and you can shoot all day without cleaning. A little trial and error is needed to find the correct amount of FG so as to get the 1/16" compression. 48 Grains of IMR 3031 will provide more velocity, (you may want to use a harder alloy) but I find the BP load more that adequate. It will shoot through a whitetail lengthwise!

The Lyman 457122 HP is another dandy deer killer, and contrary to popular belief it expands nicely even at low velocities. When pushed hard it acts like a nosler and the front blows off causing a terrible wound, and the rear penetrates very well. I once shot a quartering buck on the point of the near shoulder and found the rear 1/2 of the bullet under the hide on the opposite ham! I just wish it had gas check!

[threett1]

Driller, hope you like your GG. I do mine. I use the Lyman 457122, which is known as the Gould Hollowpoint. I as of yet haven't loaded any of my Lee 405s in it yet. It shoots great with a moderate load of AA2230c(about the same as 2460) for about 1500fps. Its all I need here in Missouri as I don't have some of the big nasties you might up there. I just use air cooled wheel weights and they do fine on whitetails. This load also shoots exceptionally well in my Handi Rifle. The same speed load would do well with your 405s I'm sure.

[Driller640]

Hello Jim, Scrounger pretty much hit the nail on the head eh, the expression is as Canadian as Hockey, Beer and Moose eh. Its who we are, so when u hear(read, I write like I talk) eh, you are talking to a True Norther eh. Any questions on your neighbour and FREIND to the North please ask eh, Will answer best I can

[13Echo]

Try this site to see how a 500gr soft lead bullet at about 1300fps will do with really tough game. The .45-70 can get 1200fps muzzle velocity with the same bullet and would stomp any animal you mentioned. The 405 gr bullet would also be more than adequate.

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8711

Jerry Liles

[Driller640]

Thanks for thr low down threett1! I an hoping to develope loads for diff game as well as shooting loads seeing how I shoot more at the range than at critters eh. The Marlin was a true dream come true as I have wanted(neeeed!!!!) one for years but unable to buy because I have to feed my Family(4 kids&wife) Found the $ some how and BLAM I got my Marlin GG. AS for the loads Iam thinking softer 405 deer, Harder for Moose Elk Wild Boar. Have u shot a boar, one of our fells shot one this past winter over 500 pounds. Saw the pics Monster. Took 3 shots From 7mm Rem mag, 4 from 30-378 WYB mag to stop. How do you like Handi-rifle, love mine in .243 eh. Love short rifles and big bores eh!!

[Driller640]

Thanks curtis44, love the info read about the duplex loads in Lyman have not talked to any one who had used it eh. Can I use Pryodex instead of Black powder seeing as we can not get true black powder in CND. How big (weight) are your Whitetails eh? AS I understand it ours are of a diff size and would like to understand the pentatration u spoke of eh.

[Driller640]

Thanks 13Echo, Have thought about 500g but am just getting started on 45-70. I believe that 500g was the very first weight used in the 45-70 ,was it not?

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks 13Echo, Have thought about 500g but am just getting started on 45-70. I believe that 500g was the very first weight used in the 45-70 ,was it not?

If you decide to try a 500 gr bullet make sure you get one that will feed through the Marlin GG. I think RCBS makes on for the Marlin. Most long nosed 500 gr bullets won't feed. Actually a good 400 gr GC bullet witha wide meplat is what you need as the 500 gr bullets seated deep to feed in the marlin eat up a lot of powder room. The RCBS 45-405-FN is a good one. With that bullet cast of hard shot (3-5% antimony - no tin) alloy and water quenched from the mould and sized as cast you should be able to get accurate loads at top velocity for your GG, 1650-1800 fps or so depending on your barrel length. At that velocity level that alloy will give good expansion (even though "hardened"). RL7 is a good powder to try as is H4895 for such loads. I use such an alloy with 500 gr bullets at that velocity (sometimes more) in my bolt action 45-70 and performance on elk is awesome.

Larry Gibson

[13Echo]

The original military load for the 45-70 was a 405gr hollow base bullet over 70gr of powder. It was followed in 1881 by the 500gr bullet, also over 70gr of powder. Lighter loads were produced for the carbine and the Cadet rifles using the 405gr bullet and about 55gr of gunpowder. The Lee 405gr hollow base is a close copy of the 1873 405gr bullet. NEI and SAECO make good copies of the 500gr bullet. The Lyman 458125 is a somewhat heavier and longer version of the 500gr bullet.

Jerry Liles

[threett1]

Haven't shot any piggies yet, but would like to. They are on the short list of things to do. I like my handi after I did some modifications. Softer recoil pad and a recrown did wonders. My load was actually developed for it and then got the GG and worked fine in it too. I highly recommend that 457122. Can't have enould 45/70 molds laying around.:mrgreen:

[rhead]

I use a 405 grain Lee hollow base made from 50-50 wheel weights and pure lead with 2% tin added over 40 grains of 3031. I get better accuracy in my Marlin with a paper patched version of this load. I can keep it in about two and a half inches at 100 yards with open sights. I quit adding powder when the recoil began to get tiring from the bench to my small (puny) frame. There is no problem with shooting it from a standing position (somewhere between a 20 gauge and a 12 gauge). 4198 worked well also but 3031 fits the other guns in my safe better. I found the 45 70 to be one of the easiest rounds to get at least very satisfactory results from. Getting consistent ignition in the big case seemed to be the only inherent problem. Unless you just like pain back off a touch when the recoil begins to be unpleasant. It is supposed to be FUN.

The only deer I shot with it fell down right there but I probably could have killed it with a 22 also. (Walking inside of 30 yards)

[jeff223]

nice read about the 45-70....A

[9.3X62AL]

My time with the 45-70 has shown the 405 grain-class of boolits to be the best performers (ballistically) in a formerly-owned Marlin 1895 and in the present Ruger #1. 300 grain-class boolits are a close second, and I think boolits much heavier than 450 grains or so eat up too much case space if seated to a length that will feed in repeaters. They kick pretty hard in that 7.5# Ruger, too.

I bought the Ruger to experiment with the 500 grain boolits and to see what sort of range advantage increased velocity could enable. This turned into a contest to see how soon a single shot rifle could make my right shoulder blade meet with the left one during recoil. My own view (now) is that past 1300 FPS with the 400 grain class bullets--even a spitzer--that recoil increases a lot more quickly than the flight path flattens out. A heavier rifle would defray that a bit, but again we run into the labor-intensive part of a hunt--dragging around a 12# rifle isn't much fun. I've found the 405 grain boolit at 1300 FPS or so to be sort of a "Golden Mean"--manageable recoil, sufficient power/energy for North American game species at reasonable ranges for the caliber (under 200 yards, due to basketball trajectory), and very fine accuracy in my rifles. Both accuracy and recoil reasonableness depart by 1500 FPS, and the downrange trajectory improvement is slight.

Most game shots in my local area are short-range encounters in brushy oak environments. The 45-70 is about perfect for this venue, and all of the deer I've taken locally could have been capably harvested with an iron-sighted 45-70. A rifle I now own--an 1897-vintage Winchester 1873 in 44-40 WCF--has taken well over 100 deer during its service life as a ranch rifle that ended in 1932. It has also dispatched several marauding black bears, per my now-deceased grandmother. This caliber's 200 grain bullet at a bit less velocity than that given by the factory load-level 45-70 served pretty well as a venison-maker for 2 generations in my family. Since our muleys and blacktails around here are about half the size of the whitetails I saw hanging in the meat shop in Hythe, AB in Autumn 2005--by redneck ballistic calculation, the 45-70 with 405 grain boolits should be just right for those monster whitetails the Canadians have to defend themselves against. I swear, some of those deer were big enough to pull beer wagons.

Like, totally--eh?

[montana_charlie]

It will shoot through a whitetail lengthwise!

Thanks curtis44,
How big (weight) are your Whitetails eh? AS I understand it ours are of a diff size and would like to understand the pentatration u spoke of eh.
Driller,
I am guessing that those Georgia whitetails run about the same as Alabama deer...which are bigger than Mississippi whitetails.
I never hunted any of the three, but I got a description from our postman when we lived in Mississippi.

When he said the Alabama deer were 'huge', I brought a whitetail rack out of my storage shed to see how it compared.
He swallowed real hard, wrapped his hand around a main beam, and said, "Gol--lee! Where'd you kill that monster ?!?!"
I said, "Uhh, Montana, but it wasn't a big one."

I also haven't killed a deer with a .45/70, but a rancher friend of mine did...with his original Winchester shooting factory ammo.
The buck (a Montana-sized whitetail about the same as my show-and-tell) moving at a slow walk paused to jump a barbed wire fence. That lifted him high enough above the buckbrush for a clear shot, so Jon hit him (in the left chest) in mid-flight.
He was knocked back hard enough to fall on the side of the fence he had jumped from.

After pacing it off, we decided the range was about 70 yards, and (I'm pretty sure) he used a 350 grain jacketed bullet.
CM

[Maineboy]

Hello, I got my marlin guide a couple of months ago, still waiting for Lee 405 .457 mould to come in eh. Would like to know if any of u have a hunting load for Deer , Moose, Elk eh. How hard is your bullet, weight, nose, and powder charge eh ? Also, how it performed and said critters eh? Any info would great, thanks a 1000 eh!!

I have a Marlin 1895 with the 22 inch barrel. My first mould for it was the Lee .457 405 and I think it's a good one. I've shot 2 deer with it and it did everything I expected, huge entry and exit wounds. My mould casts a bit over .458 when cast out of wheel weights and I don't size the boolits. I tumble lube them quite heavily and load them over 50 grains of IMR 3031. This load give me 1625 fps. and I wouldn't hestitate to use this load for moose either.

[Driller640]

Larry Gibson, Thanks, if it works on elk, it will do what I need it to eh.

13Echo, thanks for clearing that 500g ? up for me eh.

Threett1, still waiting on my first 45-70 mould, sure it won't be the last. Will try recrown on my H&R as well, thanks eh

rhead, and fun it is, will try load, thanks eh.

Deputy Al, like your write up, I see u have played lots with 45-70.
I live in Alberta, only a little farther North of Hythe. 250KM NW of Edmonton below Lesser Slave Lake. We are in the foothills of the Rockies (1350M above sea level)
Have shot several Deer (White & Mule) 300-350#. Man they are heavy to load by yourself:holysheep
Whitetail rack scored 154BC 6x7[smilie=w:
Like the young Bucks and Does better, easier to drag and load(only 100-160#)
Anyway, thanks for the info eh.

Montana Charlie, Thanks for the info. If it will knock them back over a fence, it's a keeper. Thanks eh

Maine Boy, thanks for the thumbs up on the Lee .457 405 will try. Thanks eh.

[Curtis44]

Driller, too bad you can't get BP, it is a lot of fun. Pyrodex works well though, an you can use it streight without the duplex loading. I still would use the card wad and compress the powder slightly. Our deer are babies compared to yours, an average buck will weigh 120 -160 lbs, does 90-100. Hogs are not a problem if you hit them right. I once laid out 3 ranging from 300 to 400 lbs with a marlin 38/40. Shot them between the eyes as they came up the trail single file toward me. Give the Lyman 457122 a try, I think you will like it.

[drinks]

Driller;
As the 200gr .44-40 at 1250fps was enough to take bison, I really do not believe you need do much customizing on loads.
I shoot a load as follows,320gr RCBS RF GC, of ww alloy, 60 gr of H335, [ a full case], 1850 fps average velocity of 10 shots, if I remember correctly, sighted in at 150 yds, it was within 4" high to 4" low to 190 yds, the remaining energy at 190 yds was well over 1000fps.
A friend used this load on a 300lb + feral pig this spring and dropped it in it's tracks at 125 yds.
I would feel properly loaded for anything in N.A. with this, within 200yds.

[pdawg_shooter]

I like a 430gr paper patched, 52gr AA 2495 with a CCI200.

[MtGun44]

Driller,

I use either the RCBS 405 cast GC, the Remington jacketed 405 FP, or the
Speer 405 JFP over 57.0 W748 sparked with a Fed215M (Mag match) primer
in R-P brass. Makes 1750 in my SS GG, and killed a wildebeeste and a
zebra with one shot each. Neither traveled more than 25 yds and was
done by the time we got there. Shoots about 1.5"-2" 5 shot groups at
100 yds. Sight 1.5" high at 100 and you'll be on at 150 and 8" low
at 200. Excellent load. :-D

Bill

[Driller640]

MtGun44,
That's impressive speed from a GG, eh. Thanks for the info. Will try!
Thanks for all the information on this thread fellows, eh!