Something that meters better than Unique

[ZigZagMarquis]

I posted this on another forum awhile back and got some good responses.

I still tend to shy away from Unique, but see a lot of posts here where folks speak highly of it. I'm figuring there's still some knowlege I'm lacking on how to get it to meter well.

So I figured I'd post this here to see what I can learn.

Thanks in advance.


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Something that meters better than Unique

I've experienced some issues getting Unique to meter through a Redding 3 powder measure; I've gotten charges that come up 1 to 2 grains low throwing Unique through a Redding 3 w/ the handgun metering chamber. Kind of disconcerting.

Thoughts out there on maybe this is a powder issue? Same thing different words... Anyone out there in the verse have a thought on a powder that would meter better than Unique for use in pistol loads for .38spl, .44 spl, .45acp? I'm wondering if a ball type powder vs. a flake (like Unique) would meter better? I'm guessing the answer to that is "yes", but which one? I'm okay with measuring and trickling every charge for rifle rounds, but its a bit annoying to think to do that for lots of pistol rounds for plinking when mostly I just don't want to produce a squib load for use in revolver or pistol because my powder measure decided to throw a lite load of Unique in between every 10th load or so that I do check (weigh) when loading a couple hundred pistol rounds at a sitting.

OR

Is it a powder measure issue?

Something else?

Technique using the powder measure?

[Maven]

"Is it a powder measure issue? Something else? Technique using the powder measure?"


Could be a combination of all 3 as I 've been using a Lyman #55 and Ohaus Du-O-Measure to drop 12gr. (Ohaus & Lyman )and 13gr. (Lyman only) charges of Unique with no problems to speak of. Could your problem be due to clogging/bridging in the measure itself. I.e., does it need to be disassembled and cleaned?

[Slainte]

I am using Winchester ball powder W 231 for most of my revolver or pistol calibers
Had no problem so far.
Using for 9mm Para & 45 ACP my Dillon 650 and for 44-40 & 45 LC my RCBS Lttle Dandy powder meter.

[noylj]

1) Back in the dim past, people worried less about perfect metering and more about accuracy on target
2) Even a fluffy powder like Unique or Bullseye will easily meter plus/minus 0.3gn on even the worst day. Plus/minus 0.2gn is quite common. In both cases, surprisingly, the loads will often still be amazingly accurate
3) If ANY powder is metering worse than plus/minus 0.3gn, there is something wrong with the powder measure or your technique. Be sure the powder measure is completely clean on an oils or grease that can have powder hang up. Be sure the powder path from measure to case is smooth with no ledges to trap powder.
4) Check your weights and verify you are really seeing 1-2 grain variation. That AIN'T the powder...

[sharps4590]

What noy said. I've been using an RCBS and an ancient Belding & Mull powder measure for more years than I care to remember. I'm betting there has been over 30 lbs. of Unique through those two measures and I've never had any problems. Once you are certain the measure is clean watch your technique and do it the same way every time. I bet your problems come to a screeching halt.

[UNIQUEDOT]

If you want something that has the same applications as unique, but meters better try accurate #5. If you want to know how well accurate #5 meters you can take a 9mm case or any case that uses a small primer and deprime the case and pour some #5 in the case and the powder will go straight through. I loaded some 9mm's just last night using 6.0 grains of accurate number five and when i set up my auto disk powder measure i test weighed seven throws and all seven weighed exactly 6.0 grains.

[r1kk1]

Unique meters very well for me. We burn kegs of it as both pistol and shotshell applications. I don't own the measure your using but the ones I use do fine. Even fixed bushings drop it consistently.

Is your measure mounted solidly?

Just curious,

r1kk1

[375RUGER]

I've never loaded with Unique <me hiding behind sofa> but I can't imagine any flake powder having trouble metering.
I'd check the measure or your technique for the inconsistency.

[H.Callahan]

I have never had any problems metering Unique through a Uniflow. I double tap on the upstroke and double tap on the down stroke (I do this will all the powders) and never had a problem with bridging. Every once in a great while I will feel something when dropping that feels like shearing a flake, but when I measure it on a scale, it is usually spot on.

With that said, I have heard the Power Pistol has similar characteristics to Unique, but meters better for some people.

[Jack Stanley]

You can try one of the ball powders similar to unique if you like , but it sounds like you just got a whole list of things to try out .

Here's one more I don't know if it will translate to your Redding measure . With the Uniflo I have it has a large and small "funnel the powder goes through before seeing the case . Mine worked with the small funnel untill my charges of Unique got larger , a switch to the large one fixed that .

I don't recall if I'm using the pistol or the rifle cylinder in it but that might make a difference as well .

Jack

[jhrosier]

FWIW, I use Unique very often, metered through my Lyman #55 measure.
I use charge weights from 7.0 to 10.0 gns, usually.
I weigh a powder charge about every 25 rounds and never see more than +/- 0.1 gn variation.
Win231 also meters very well through the #55.

Jack

[rexherring]

My old Pacific measures Unique fairly well but I do like the AA#5 better as it is a little more accurate in my measure and very close to the same load data.

[David2011]

One thing that I haven't seen in the discussion is the charge weight. I can see how you could get big variations with Unique if the charge weight was very small, like the powder puff loads for .38 Special. With a small volume in the rotor the fluffy particles could just as easily wipe away back out of the cavity as they could stay in it. A larger volume in the rotor cavity seems like it would be more consistent. I usually use a Little Dandy for Unique until I get to heavier loads.

I've had consistency problems with Clays for the same reason- fluffy, oatmeal-like flakes.

David

[medalguy]

I like Unique and I've used it for years. Does it meter real well? No. Does that seem to make much difference in handgun shooting at short distances? No.

If you really need extremely accurate powder loads, don't use Unique. For my money, I really can't tell any difference in the loads and distances I shoot at.

[gray wolf]

while loading for the 44 mag SBH I notice the difference, 9.3 grains of unique measures like **** from my very clean, taken care of r c b s uni-flow. did someone compare unique to bulls eye ?
I don't want 9.8 9.1 8.9 not if 9.3 is my load. I had to load down and trickle up.
Not fun with pistol ammo. I keep hearing good enough for me, it's not for me.
I went back to long shot 10 grains with the same bullet, 429421 It's not ***** cat load, a little hotter than the 9.3 of unique, ( very little ) but it meters a little better, if I load down and trickle up it is more consistent. With the unique it's over, it's under, it's on, it's off. Now I'm not saying that I don't like unique, on the contrary,
I think it's a great powder, has been for years. It's just a pain to use in MY uniflow. Bulls eye, tite group, h322, long shot and naturally ball powders are fine.
Must be my old, well taken care of uniflow (tongue in cheek )
However if I can remedy this so I can have .2 2/10 variation I will be very happy.
Like I said I do like the unique.
I shoot at all different distance, I don't shoot the 44 mag for 20 yard shooting all the time. the loads I mentioned are dead nuts accurate at 20 and milk jugs all day long at 100. I have to say this 44 mag hunter is extremely accurate.
I am sure all of you guys have good results with your 44 mags.
Believe me I am not trying to say how great I am or that my pistol is special.
What the heck the thread is about powder.

[fryboy]

funny you say that wolf , a feller i know swears by the uniflow for unique ( i prefer the PPM )

what i have noted is that in small quantities ,ie; lite loads/small charges ( especially below 5 grains ) i get a lil more variation , around 5 and up it's usually spot on , having stated that those small charges isnt really where unique shines at - it'll load many cartridges very well , some superbly and a few ( precious few ) not worth a darn , no it wont load my loudenboomerearsplittinmagonsteriods worth anything other than plinking that is but note it will do that fine , universal clays is about a twin ,same uses ( varying charge weights so check those ) and if it meters better it's hard for me to tell ,but it is as close to characteristics as possible , stepping down in the burn speed is power pistol , it too is a large flaky powder but .. the flakes are just a hint smaller , it however has more ummph than unique and isnt quite as versatile nor does it have the proven track record and sheer number of loading data available for it , personally i prefer the slower powders when possible , herco and wsf are next down in the list , both have a lil more ummph and can add a wee bit of velocity at around the same pressure levels ( this is only part of why i prefer the slower powders when possible , a side note - usually the slower powders also require a slightly heavier charge weight ,usually being the key word ) both also meter like a dream , there's about 3 more powders going down the burn rate before we get to AA #5 so now we'll lookk at the faster powders ... ww231 and hp-38 are rumored to be the same powder or close enough to it , both are ball powders meter like a dream , use lower charge weights but operate at higher pressure to achieve the same velocity , in some cartridges you can even hit max pressure before you get to the same feet per second , this fairly well holds true as we move up the faster burning speeds btw , there are exceptions so as a general rule it applies , i'll leave a link to the burn rate chart and let you meander it for a bit

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

one thing i will state that needs to be met for consistent drops - consistent actions ,ie; if you heavy ham it this stroke and limp wrist it the next you will NEVER get the same charge repeatedly , every action must be the same or the results will vary until the cows come home ( that's just the nature of the beast be it rotor,drum,cavity dropped or even scooped in a fixed measure such as lee's dippers )

[ZigZagMarquis]

Thanks all.

I'll break down my powder measure and give the metal parts a good cleaning with Acetone, something I've done a couple of times already and am guessing should be done periodically?

And then I'll give Unique another go while concentrating on technique and measureing each load to see if I can ferrit out my problem, not the powders.

A specific problem I seem to experience is several loads seem to go well, but then I get a one off where when I go to drop the charge, my measure "binds", to the point sometimes that I have to rap on the measure's handle to get it to free itself. Next charge, measure cycles like it never happened...

... standing by for the shots on that one, sorry.


<edit to add>

Anyway, I've switched to using Bullseye for .44mag and .38spl as I've had better luck with me & my meter and that.

I've been using 6.0grns of Bullseye under 200grn, Oregon Trail RNFP, bullets (err... boolits) in .44mag, as plinking rounds, but when looking at how little that fills the case, I fear I may be "asking" for problems?

Aside, I've used Bullseye in .45ACP too, but think I'll go back to Win231 for that.

[UNIQUEDOT]

herco and wsf are next down in the list , both have a lil more ummph and can add a wee bit of velocity at around the same pressure levels ( this is only part of why i prefer the slower powders when possible , a side note - usually the slower powders also require a slightly heavier charge weight ,usually being the key word ) both also meter like a dream , there's about 3 more powders going down the burn rate before we get to AA #5 so now we'll lookk at the faster powders

I sure hope you are not using hodgdons burn rate chart. You just as well make up your own than go by that one! it's so far off the mark it's pathetic. A more accurate chart can be found on accurates website and even then it's not perfect. You can view them from all the manufacturers and loading manuals and find they are all different, but i have never seen one so far off the mark than hodgdon's. You'll also note on accurates chart that they have #5 in between green dot and unique... A bit slower than green dot, but faster than unique. In all the years that i have used both i don't have much of an opinion either way other than the fact that they are fairly close.

[A pause for the COZ]

I have two Uniflows and both will drop Unique at less than a 20th of a grain variance. That allows me to drop Unique with my progressive.
Unque is one of my must have powders. Having a effective way to drop it was a priority.

I found the Uniflow ( at least the two I have) to be fool proof in this task.
Both of mine I purchased used and well broke in so it was. Put the powder in and go.

Believe it or not though. I am a convert to the LEE PPM being a good measure to drop Unique.
Actually it drops more powders more accurately than my Uniflows.

It took a long time and a lot of pulling my hair out with the PPM.
I have had two of them. The 1st one I sold as a useless piece of junk.
I ordered a second one when my Uniflow got upgraded with the case activated linkage and became a permanent fixture to the progressive.

I needed a fill in for lower volume work until I could procure another Uniflow.
Low volume means trickling is not a big deal, so I ordered another PPM.
Sure enough as soon as I got it. all the reasons I got rid of the 1st one came back.
1/2 gr variances per drop were more the norm than the exception.

I would just set it and trickle to my 6 gr load.
Funny thing though. The more I used it the less I needed to trickle to weight.
I started to pay attention to what it and I were doing.
Next thing you know I did a whole run of 50 6gr loads that dropped right on the weight.

The thing I found with the PPM is the tap is mandatory. And not just a little love tap ether.

if you look at flake powder you will notice it is well.... Flaky. To have a consistent load it needs to packed in there as tight as it will go to take up air space.

With the Uniflow this packing is accomplished by the weight of the powder in the reservoir.
Its basically a big funnel feeding the drop tube.

The PPM's reservoir feeds through a small hole into a holding chamber that feeds the drop tube.
There is not very much weight packing the powder in the tube. Thats were your variances come from. Air space in a light flaky powder.

Here is what you do. Assuming the measure is Lubed.
Do that by running a few pounds of powder through it to get graphite from the powder in through the measure.

Then on the up stoke. When the drop tube is full tap the screw on the lever side of the PPM two or three good taps. This settles the powder and takes out the air space.
Then on the down stroke repeat the taps. This insures all the powder has vacated the drop tube.

Think for a second whats happening. If you have set it at 6 gr of unique with packing the drop tube.
You will never get a error high as it cant possibly hold more than a full charge.
Then the only error possible is a low charge. So right there we have illuminated 50% of the variance.
Then with the packing that is also cut by a wide margin.
Do it the same way every time and your drops will be the same every time.

Dont give up on your PPM's. Not saying they will be worth a darn making high volume drops. But you can definitely get better than you have been getting.

[Lloyd Smale]

I like unique and will continue to use it even though it does meter like ****. That said ive come to use alot of power pistol lately. It meters like water and has given me great performace. Ill never give up on powders like unique and herco but if a couple tenths up and down really bother you that much its a good choise.

[FergusonTO35]

I've always found Accurate #5 will do anything Unique will do, meters way better, and is alot cleaner.

[r1kk1]

I've always found Accurate #5 will do anything Unique will do, meters way better, and is alot cleaner.

Except for shotshell.

r1kk1

[Cowboy T]

I reload .38 Spl, .44 Spl, and .45 Colt. A buddy does .45 ACP. In all four of these applications, we've found that Titegroup not only meters very well, but also performs well. Its position-insensitivity in the larger cases like .44 Spl and (especially) .45 Colt comes in handy when I'm making powder-puff loads. It also has plenty of shotshell applications, per Hodgdon's Web site.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Except for shotshell.

r1kk1

Accurate used to publish shotshell data for #5, but it's such a fine granulated powder it's difficult to get a proper case fill with it.

[r1kk1]

One other thing: I start with 10 grains in 30-06 using unique. Cast or otherwise, makes for a fine load. Any titegroup recipes for rifle?

Take care

r1kk1

[r1kk1]

Accurate used to publish shotshell data for #5, but it's such a fine granulated powder it's difficult to get a proper case fill with it.

I haven't seen any data for it. What was the gauge they had data for? I have No. 5 and Unique on my bench. I've noticed 5 is not position sensitive where Unique is. I like 5 for 45 acp but like clays better for that application. I've seen an email off to accurate arms on this and another for Nitro 100 for cast bullets. Nitro works good in 3/4 and 7/8 loads but the latest loading guide only show loads for 9mm and a very small range at that. Handloader mag did an article on the new formation of nitro 100.

I will post what they say and I'm speculating if they did it was for the 28/410 crowd. Case fill I can deal with, wad combinations and/or wad pressure or maybe a different hull.

Cool handle: Uniquedot. Could be Alliant's newest powder.

Take care

r1kk1

[Char-Gar]

I have been using Unique for over 50 years and have never had any metering issues with it. It gives me consistant and good accuracy. I have a Hollywood and a Lyman 55 power measure.

If it gives folks trouble, my money is on the measure or how it is used as the culprit, not the powder.

[UNIQUEDOT]

What was the gauge they had data for?

I believe it was only in 12 ga. and was around 1990 give or take a couple years. Accurate also did testing for Lee's 12 ga. molds and they used accurate #5 for the testing. I've used a good bit of it with 12 ga. slugs, but as you said it just isn't as suitable in shotshell applications as unique. I don't know for sure why they gave up on it as a suitable shot propellant, but I've suspected that it was because it's just too fine granulated and it's too difficult to get a proper fill.

[Reg]

I too have tried running Unique and other flake powders through a Redding measure and had poor results, not sure why but it just binds and throws inaccurate charges.
Had a old Herters #40 measure and once in frustration I tried it with Unique. Works perfect. No binding and charges are very accurate. Works well in fact with all flake powders.

[r1kk1]

Kudos to Uniquedot!

Rik,

The Accurate Arms Company had published loads for slugs with 2, 5 &7.
*
Best Regards
Scott Ziebarth*
Ramshot.Accurate.Powders
WesternPowdersInc.Miles City.Montana.

It was a short sweet answer. Surprised about No. 2 powder was included.

My hat is off to you Uniquedot. Now if they only brought back Scott powders like 1500. . .

r1kk1

[Char-Gar]

The design of a measure make a difference. The fit of the drum/rotor to the body and the placement of the charge hole are critical. If the design is not right, it will allow flake powder to slip in between the drum/rotor and the body causing binding and uneven throw.

Ball powder generally won't blind for the above reason. But, ball powders while working better in a poorly designed measure are frequently not the best powder for a particular use.

The measures with a sliding bar like some progressives use, are almost unusable with flake powder. Other drum measures are almost as bad.

I was given a Redding measure, which is touted as one of the best, but it was nothing but a source of frustration for me and I had both chambers. I gave it away to a guy who thought he had to have a Redding.

I do not view Unique as being a problem powder. I view some measures as being poorly designed and built. If you cater to the ball only crowd, you can market some pretty lousy measures. A really good measure will work like a champ with ball, flake or stick powders. If you can't get your measure to work well with Unique, you should be fussing about your measure and not the powder.

[r1kk1]

.

I do not view Unique as being a problem powder. I view some measures as being poorly designed and built. If you cater to the ball only crowd, you can market some pretty lousy measures. A really good measure will work like a champ with ball, flake or stick powders. If you can't get your measure to work well with Unique, you should be fussing about your measure and not the powder.

very well said. + 1

r1kk1

[ZigZagMarquis]

The design of a measure make a difference. The fit of the drum/rotor to the body and the placement of the charge hole are critical. If the design is not right, it will allow flake powder to slip in between the drum/rotor and the body causing binding and uneven throw.

Ball powder generally won't blind for the above reason. But, ball powders while working better in a poorly designed measure are frequently not the best powder for a particular use.

The measures with a sliding bar like some progressives use, are almost unusable with flake powder. Other drum measures are almost as bad.

I was given a Redding measure, which is touted as one of the best, but it was nothing but a source of frustration for me and I had both chambers. I gave it away to a guy who thought he had to have a Redding.

I do not view Unique as being a problem powder. I view some measures as being poorly designed and built. If you cater to the ball only crowd, you can market some pretty lousy measures. A really good measure will work like a champ with ball, flake or stick powders. If you can't get your measure to work well with Unique, you should be fussing about your measure and not the powder.


Okay, Aye Aye, got it.


So I've got this Redding powder measure that won't throw Unique for sh*t (let's say for the purposes of this discussion)...

What's my next step seeing as how it appears (to me) that the basic design of a Hornaday or RCBS is the same? ... you've got a rotor... you've got an insert / micrometer-ish measure to adjust the chamber...

OR...

Is it possible the particular Redding I've got is a lemon? How do I tell?


Not sure I'd want to try a Lee Perfect measure or a Lee Auto Disk, but at least the Lee Perfect is so inexpensive it wouldn't be that much money wasted if it turns out to be a *** for me.


Not sure I want to drop the coin on a Hornaday or RCBS to just "try them out" at random with "hope" as a strategy... although, I guess I could just send them down the road on eBay if they don't work out for me.

[jhrosier]

:popcorn:

The Lyman #55 measure sure doesn't seem to be very popular hereabouts......

Mine has been metering out very consistent charges of most powders, including Unique, for more than 40 years.

Just sayin'

Jack

[Char-Gar]

I have a Hollywood and Lyman 55 and both have drums that rotate inside of the measure body. The Hollywood has a micrometer adjustable chamber and the Lyman uses a three slides operated by thumb operated long screws. Both throw consistant charges of Unique and Bullseye, which are both flake powders.

A rotating drum is not a problem, but the way the drum interfaces with the body and the space between the drum and body can cause problems.

I have no way of knowing if your Redding is a lemon or not. I had one, but got rid of it, because it was not near as easy to adjust and return to the adjustment as the Hollywood. I did not use it long enough to come to any other conclusions. I did load some handgun rounds with Unique and it seemed to do OK.

I know nothing about the Lee measures, but do a search on the Lee Auto Disk and you will find folks on this board have had some issues with it.

My suggestion would be to pick up a used Lyman 55 on Ebay. There are always plenty of them for sale and the price is reasonable. A primo used one goes for about $45.00 and one with a few dings but still in perfect working order goes for about $10.00 less.

[bloodyknife]

I have found the RCBS Little Dandy to be very consistent (=/-0.2 gr. or better) with Unique and pistols loads but it must be operated in a consistent and vigorous manner. It seems most powder measures need to be slammed a little, especially progressives and MEC shotgun loaders. Like a 1911, if you are too gentle they jam.

[David2011]

If you ever run across an old Saeco powder measure you might want to buy it. When I have metering issues with my Uniflow (1980s or earlier vintage) I find that the Saeco will usually be more consistent. It meters H4895 much more consistently than the Uniflow with far less cutting of granules. That's not comparable to the Unique metering problem; just a comment on the Saeco.

David

[David2011]

The design of a measure make a difference. The fit of the drum/rotor to the body and the placement of the charge hole are critical. If the design is not right, it will allow flake powder to slip in between the drum/rotor and the body causing binding and uneven throw.

The measures with a sliding bar like some progressives use, are almost unusable with flake powder. Other drum measures are almost as bad.


I could not agree more. The design is why I credit my old Saeco for being so consistent. It has a fairly small chamber opening in the rotor and a nice fine pitched screw adjuster. Virtually all of my pistol loading is on progressives as described and the fluffy, oatmeal-like powders are unsuitable for small charges such as those required for .40 S&W. They're unlikely to overcharge but often undercharge. That's a fatal flaw at the chronograph stage at a match. Maybe even moreso for serious shooting.

David