Are You Sure?

[rodwha]

Looking at Hogdgon's chart 777, which is 15% more powerful than Pyrodex, gives nearly 850 fps with 30 grns of powder. Multiply that by .85 and I get about 720 fps for the 30 grns of Pyrodex P I used.

Computing that into the ballistics calculator it shows 165 ft/lbs. That's not even 380 ACP territory. Why the amount of recoil with a fairly heavy platform? And how are people getting passthroughs on deer using a RB?

1000 fps only gives ~320 ft/lbs (RB), which drops quickly as the distance gets out there (275 ft/lbs @ 25 yds and 242 ft/lbs @ 50 yds), which hardly seems enough for a passthrough, especially with such a light and easily deformed projectile.

[Ajax]

What gun are using and what is the caliber? 30 graqins sounds way low for a hunting charge.


Andy

[idahoron]

The PRB shooters will say that the energy in a PRB can not be measured by FPE. I call horse chit. Everything can be measured. There is no PRB magic like they would like you to believe. I have seen animals shot with PRB's they were not pass throughs. Ron

[Boerrancher]

30 grains of powder is a squirrel load in a 45 or 50 cal, and oft times will not shoot through a squirrel at 30 steps. 50 grains is the bare minimum to use for deer with a PRB.

Best wishes,

Joe

[rodwha]

The pistol is an Old Army.

The 30 grns was just for familiarization while at the range using a little less powder. I found that 40 grns with a wad and RB was nearly all I could fit in there, and it took more force than I figured it would.

I didn't word my OP very well, sorry. My post was more about comparing the data Hogdgon's supplied about the velocity of said powder with a RB, and the amount of recoil I had with this load, as well as wondering how a RB performs as well as some claim. It didn't seem right at all. But I'm not familiar with what to expect from BP. For all I know it could recoil much more than smokeless.

I'm hoping to keep ~400 ft/lbs at range for hunting with. I intend on using 3F 777, and have been looking for commercially available conicals/bullets to use. Many have told me that a RB is all I needed and that they often had passthroughs using them. It just doesn't seem right, especially if Hogdgon's data is remotely accurate, meaning a fair load is only about as powerful as a 38 Spl.

I'll use as much powder as possible as long as accuracy doesn't suffer too much. I hear 20-25 grns tends to give the best groups, which, of course, wouldn't be enough for hunting with. The #s people have given me for their loads (30 grns of 777 behind a 220-255 grn bullet, or 40 grns with a RB) seem to defy the data Hogdgon's has. And I find it often.

[rodwha]

A RB may very well work with the lower velocities on the deer down here, as they run 75-125 lbs on the hoof. But I also have the opportunity for axis and hog.

And I'd feel better with what I "learned" was a more appropriate projectile. Never would I have used a bullet from the lighter spectrum of choices in any smokeless weapon. "Experts" would have stated that I needed a middle to heavy weight, and what I "know" is that they would penetrate further/better.

[rodwha]

I can't seem to find the original posts, but some were claiming they could achieve 700+ ft/lbs with a 240 grn bullet (IIRC) using 777. Some were more in the 500 ft/lb range.

[daniel lawecki]

Fired muzzleloaders awhile back just picked up a t/c seneca 50cal ruger old army 44cal I was thinking of using pyrodex . Any help would be welcome

[rodwha]

I was given some Pyrodex P and RS with my pistol, but intend on buying some 777 to use instead.

I recently acquired the Old Army, but I've asked a lot of questions and found a bit online. What questions do you have?

The best advice I can give you is to be VERY careful with it as parts are VERY hard to find and expensive. I recently forgot to tighten the base pin screw after reassembling the cylinder and bent the base pin when trying to seat a ball. I also hear grip frame screws may loosen and fall out.

Do you have a Ruger manual?

[daniel lawecki]

No my buddy passed away his daughter brought all his guns to my house 11 of them I last shot some of his guns in the mid 80,s I,ll get a manual and do alot of reading. I will have ? some things to ask about.I do shoot alot of smokeless and reload

[rodwha]

Any questions you have I would gladly answer. If not I can post them elsewhere for you.

Sorry to hear that you lost your friend.

[Mike Brooks]

I killed a deer last year with an 1860 army with a RB and 30gr of 3fff real BP. Shot it in the back of the head and it didn't pass through. i'd say for me a hand gun at 30 yards would be a max. hunting distance. A RB and 30gr. 3fff BP is plenty for that distance , no need for a big bullet. I've always found deer pretty easy to kill with a well placed shot. I've seen guys kill them dead on the spot with a 22LR.

[rodwha]

The deer down here run rather light (75-125 lbs on the hoof) and could probably be taken with a sling shot.

But we also have axis and plenty of hogs. So I'd prefer a bigger bullet. And using 777 it could be possible from a good rest to take game out to 50 yds if it's possible with me, the gun, and the load. I may find something in that chain won't give me good enough groups, but I'd like to try.

I can cram 40 grns of powder with a wad and ball. Using 777 ought to really make a RB scream, but I'd still better prepared for whatever may drift my way.

I found shooting 'em in the first third of the neck (nearer the body as it moves little) will drop them like a rock from a rifle (270 Win). Not sure if that would work with a handgun as it doesn't have hydrostatic shocking abilities.

[Hanshi]

I will shoot light loads in deer calibers, myself. 30 grains for small game will at least knock the breath out of a squirrel so you can come up on it and and strangle it.:coffeecom

[rodwha]

Hmmmm... I was hoping not to have to strangle them...

I wouldn't use 30 grns unless it was 777 behind a heavier bullet/conical. The 30 grn load was just getting acquainted at the range.

[omgb]

The recoil comes from the weight of the ball AND the weight of the powder. You have to figure them both into the equation

[rodwha]

I've seen some numbers from other's loads and it may be that Hogdgon's data may be on the light side, which would make sense to me as it had similar recoil to a 45 ACP + P or so. More than a 38 Spl.

[Mike Brooks]

I have never found recoil to be noticeable from a BP six shooter loaded with RB. Keep in mind 777 doesn't like compression and creates pressure spikes when it is compressed. I have tried 777 in revolvers with RB and found the accuracy sucks. Lots of boom and velocity, but pretty wild. All I can say about hunting with cap guns and a RB is get close, alll a part of the game.;-)

[Mike Brooks]

Also, A RB has always done everything I wanted it to do and I haven't tried conicals from a cap and ball gun. They may be just the ticket, I don't know. If I were going to try conicals I'd use a dragoon or a walker I suppose, large powder capacity and the weight to absorb any recoil.:Fire:

[rodwha]

Initially I was interested in a Walker or Dragoon. An Old Army doesn't need to reduce the powder charge when using 777 as you would with any other. That makes it about the equivalent of a Dragoon. With the cylinders deepened or switching to classicballistx cylinders it's on par with a Walker.

I read of people claiming as high as 700+ ft/lbs using a bullet and 777, which I question (though I think that is with the deepened cylinders). Some others talk of 500+ ft/lbs...

I'd be quite happy with 450 ft/lbs.

I am not against using RB. I'm just unsure of it. And that's more with the chance of hogs or axis. I've been taught to use the heaviest projectile you can use, which would be to say a 225 grn bullet from a 45 Colt is barely acceptable with a 250-255 grn bullet better, and 300 grn ideal for anything. So it's hard to imagine a 143 grn RB doing well.

[Omnivore]

Actual chrono data using a Remington New Model Army;
http://blog.joehuffman.org/2010/02/16/PlayingWithFire.aspx
That's using Goex 3F black powder. Swiss BP, Pyrodex or or 777 will all typically post higher velocities.

In short;
39 grains 3F, round ball; 925 fps from 8" barrel
29 grains 3F, round ball; 850 fps
30 grains 3F, 180 grain Buffalo bulet; 1047 fps! (tested it back and forth with the round ball loads)

Notice the significant recoil in the animated GIF.

I now use home cast 200 grain Lee bullet (cheaper to shoot) which posts velocity in the 830s IIRC, with 30 grains 3F.

You're pushing out significantly more mass when using black powder, compared to smokeless. It would make some sense to expect more recoil for the same muzzle velocity and bullet weight in the same gun.

Haven't killed any big game with a pistol. I use 110 grains 2F in a 24" barrel rifle for deer. Round ball typically passes through. Not quite up to 44 Magnum energies, but close.

[daniel lawecki]

Rodwha I would gladly take any advice you could give me. Im going to the local gun store Chad Cleland is the owner with his father. He was or is a national muzzleloader champ. Feel free to pm at any thime THANK_YOU

[omgb]

Well, I have chronoed (I think I just created a new verb) loads out of my ROA using 35 grns of 3F and a round ball. I get about 825 fps. That's a tad on the light side for taking deer. It's certainly less energy wise than the 45 ACP would be. It's more than the 32-20 with a period correct load and lots of deer were killed with it...but, it's still not my first choice.

[Mike Brooks]

I have shot full loads of 777 in my 1860 armys. I'm sure the dragoon and walker could handle it too.

[rodwha]

825 fps with a RB isn't what I'd want to use either. No doubt it could work, but I'd want more. Much more. I'm hoping to achieve >45 Colt performance. I'd feel good about that.

I often find conflicting ballistic data where the loads give a very modest velocity, such as yours, and some that claim they can get as high as 41 Mag power levels of over 700 ft/lbs with a fairly heavy (200-255 grn) bullet. Some with more reasonable power levels of over 500 ft/lbs.

I feel I need a chronograph.

[rodwha]

I would say that was roughly the kind of recoil I was receiving from 30 grn loads with a RB. It just seemed more than what a 38 Spl would have given with that mild of a load. My grip was more relaxed than normal though...

[telebasher]

Fired muzzleloaders awhile back just picked up a t/c seneca 50cal ruger old army 44cal I was thinking of using pyrodex . Any help would be welcome

Pyrodex "P" grade will work fine in both weapons and "RS" grade in the rifle. I"m pretty sure T/C never made a 50 cal Seneca as they have 13/16 barrels and a 50 cal hole doesnt leave much meat left. I've had a 36,45 and 32 cal barrels and all were good shooters with the 32 a literal tack driver. Sold the rifle when I got one of the first 32 Cherokees. It too is a tack driver and the guy offered me too much cash for the Seneca and extra barrels. We both came away happy! Good luck with yours.

[Hanshi]

Has anyone checked velocities from one of the 5" - 5.5" Colts or Remmies? A short barrel like this is my idea of a fine side arm when hunting with a muzzleloader. I did chronograph my 4.5" Colt SAA with, IIRC, 35 grains goex 3F and a WW cast 250 grain bullet. I got average speeds of 850fps. Pyrodex didn't do as well due to high velocity variations.

[turkeyinstrut]

Fired muzzleloaders awhile back just picked up a t/c seneca 50cal ruger old army 44cal I was thinking of using pyrodex . Any help would be welcome

T/C never made a Seneca in .50 cal. only made them in .32, .36, and .45