RCBS 44 mag die makes wimpy crimps

[Revolver]

I have an older 44 mag RCBS seating die. When almost bottomed out on the shellholder it barely makes a light crimp. Is this unusual?

[nicholst55]

The best roll crimp I have seen comes from a Redding Profile Crimp die. Make sure that your brass is full length - some brands are NOT. You might also try a different shell holder.

[Revolver]

I was hoping to work with what I have, I have been crimping seperately with a dillon accu crimp die but it's an extra step.

I tried two different brands of shellholders, one is a lyman, the other I don't know.

[220swiftfn]

The seating die isn't carbide, just trim the mouth down to get more crimp adjustment......You ARE crimping in a separate step, right???


Dan

[Revolver]

...You ARE crimping in a separate step, right???
Dan

Ummmm... no, I wasn't. Have I been bad? Teach me!

[44man]

Ummmm... no, I wasn't. Have I been bad? Teach me!
No, doesn't matter. You really do not need a super crimp, depend on case tension instead.
The problem with most RCBS dies is the expander is too large and long.
If your die folds the crimp edge to the bottom of the groove, it is enough.
A profile die works for some boolits but if you have oversize to fit the gun, it will size them. I can only use it on a few boolits.
99% of my loads are seated and crimped at the same time, it has not proven to change anything. Nobody is more fussy about dies then I am. :holysheep

[Revolver]

Ok, good. Yes, I almost always crimp with my seating dies. I crimp pretty mild to extend my brass life but this RCBS die gives a new meaning to mild crimp. I guess I will try to shorten the die body a little.

[blaser.306]

Instead of modifying your dies , you may want to shorten the deck height of your shell holder instead? does the same job but less work and likely easier to do!

[Tatume]

As 220Swiftfn pointed out, crimping during the bullet seating operation has the potential to cause a problem. As the case mouth is moved inwards, it can contact the bullet before the bullet has stopped moving. When this happens, a sliver of lead will be shaved from the bullet. Shaving bullets will usually be non-uniform, and can therefore cause inaccuracy. The best way to avoid the problem is to seat bullets, then crimp the cases in a separate operation.

[Wally]

Contact RCBS-----they will ask you to return it and they will replace it.... They have been wonderful to deal with for me when I've had problems with their products. I had the same problem some years ago and they replaced the die...works just fine now.

Typically the light crimp would be just fine with a jacketed bullet as it doesn't have a deep crimping groove. Years ago cast was not as popular as it is today in the Magnum calibers, so they made dies designed for jacketed bullets.




I have an older 44 mag RCBS seating die. When almost bottomed out on the shellholder it barely makes a light crimp. Is this unusual?

[45-70 Chevroner]

Instead of modifying your dies , you may want to shorten the deck height of your shell holder instead? does the same job but less work and likely easier to do!
That won't work, in so doing the die is still the same you have to shorten the die.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Ok, good. Yes, I almost always crimp with my seating dies. I crimp pretty mild to extend my brass life but this RCBS die gives a new meaning to mild crimp. I guess I will try to shorten the die body a little.

Just grind it down until it works properly, but be sure to dress it with a fine file and wet and dry sand paper and you may have to re-chamfer the inside leading edge as well. Or do as one of the other posters said send it back to RCBS, they will replace it.

[Tatume]

Blaser.306 is correct. If the shell holder is shortened it accomplishes the same thing as shortening the die. It doesn't matter which, the end result is the case is pushed deeper into the die.

[Bill*]

That won't work, in so doing the die is still the same you have to shorten the die.
I'm trying to picture it (without a press in front of me) and it seems like it would work...what am I missing?

[Alan in Vermont]

I'm trying to picture it (without a press in front of me) and it seems like it would work...what am I missing?

If you're missing something then I must be as well. Either a thinner shellholder or a shorter die will effectively move the crimp shoulder in the die closer to the head of the case.

[Leadmelter]

+1 on the Redding die series. Just be sure that the brass is uniform,
You through all the work of casting bullets, sizing bullets, buying components and it all comes down to the finial step: a good crimp for uniform magnum loads.
Just my experience with 357 and 44 mag.
Good Luck and keep shooting. It drives liberals insane.
Leadmelter
MI

[Sven]

I have always had better luck crimping in a seperate step, especially when loading heavy hunting loads. My .44 mag dies are Lyman dies with the "M" expander die. It is more of a two step expander -- the bottom portion expands the case less then the top portion of the die. Allows for easier initial seating of the bullet, yet maintains a good tight fit for half the bullet seating depth. In addition, I crimp with a Dillon crimp die.

Don't know how good of job I did explaining it, but it sure works for me!

[500Smith]

The best roll crimp I have seen comes from a Redding Profile Crimp die. Make sure that your brass is full length - some brands are NOT. You might also try a different shell holder.

Totally agree on the Redding Die.

You need to “bite the bullet” HA :bigsmyl2: , and add a final step.

[Danderdude]

Give Lee a call and ask if they can build you a rifle-style Factory Crimp Die for .44 Mag. They already make one for .357 Mag and both cases are the same length.
http://leeprecision.com/357-mag-custom-factory-crimp-die.html

[williamwaco]

I have seen a lot of crimp images here that are much too heavy. Really heavy crimping can have a disastrous effect on the bullet.


See:
http://reloadingtips.com/how_to/crimping_revolvers.htm

Fortunately this page was created using RCBS dies.

About half way down the page you will see a crimp that is labeled "I recommend you stop here"

That is exactly the crimp level I use on the .44 mag with max loads.

You will also see some really heavy crimps and pulled bullets to show you what those heavy crimps can do to your bullet.


.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I'm trying to picture it (without a press in front of me) and it seems like it would work...what am I missing?

I know I am a little late coming back on this I have been out of town for a few days. I have been rethinking this and you are right grinding the shell holder down will work, but it would be a lot easier to hold the die up to a grinder than a shell holder. I also agree with the less crimp is better, although it does depend on the load. A heavy load or magnum load should be crimped tight enough to keep the slug in place under heave recoil, but not so tight as to displace lead.

[MikeS]

Blaser.306 is correct. If the shell holder is shortened it accomplishes the same thing as shortening the die. It doesn't matter which, the end result is the case is pushed deeper into the die.

Actually there IS a difference. If you're touching the top of the shell holder with the die, and you take some more off the top of the shell holder, then again touch the top of it with the seating die, in either case the distance from the crimping shoulder in the die, and the bottom of the die stays the same. If you remove some off the bottom of the die, then again touch the bottom of the die to the top of the shell holder, as you've removed length from the die, now the crimping shoulder IS closer to the bottom of the die.

So, if you want to fix the die to crimp more, you have to remove metal from the DIE, not the shell holder.

[Baryngyl]

Actually there IS a difference. If you're touching the top of the shell holder with the die, and you take some more off the top of the shell holder, then again touch the top of it with the seating die, in either case the distance from the crimping shoulder in the die, and the bottom of the die stays the same. If you remove some off the bottom of the die, then again touch the bottom of the die to the top of the shell holder, as you've removed length from the die, now the crimping shoulder IS closer to the bottom of the die.

So, if you want to fix the die to crimp more, you have to remove metal from the DIE, not the shell holder.
Either way will work, shellholder is cheaper.
Taking a bit off the top of the shellholder allows the brass to be pushed up into the dies farther thus crimping it more.

Michael Grace

[Tatume]

Actually there IS a difference. ... you have to remove metal from the DIE, not the shell holder.

This would only be true if the case were fully inserted into the die. As a considerable portion of the case remains outside of the die, removing material from the top of the shell holder allows the case to move deeper into the die. The effect is exactly the same as if the die were shortened.

Take care, Tom

[Char-Gar]

If you remove metal from the top of the shell holder, you can move the die down and increase the crimp.

If you remove metal from the bottom of the die, you can move the die down and increase the crimp.

The case is held in place where it rest on the bottom of the shell holder, so it doesn't change whichever part your shorten.


shell holders are cheap and soft. Hold it with a pair of visegrips and remove metal from the top. Don't screw up an othewise good die.

[frankenfab]

If you are having trouble with too little crimp at what appears to be all the adjustment you have, it may be because the smallest diameter of the die (the part above the crimp shoulder) is too big. The only fix for that is a different die.

[rond]

As 220Swiftfn pointed out, crimping during the bullet seating operation has the potential to cause a problem. As the case mouth is moved inwards, it can contact the bullet before the bullet has stopped moving. When this happens, a sliver of lead will be shaved from the bullet. Shaving bullets will usually be non-uniform, and can therefore cause inaccuracy. The best way to avoid the problem is to seat bullets, then crimp the cases in a separate operation.

If you are using a roll crimp with boolits that have a crimp groove it is very easy to get good results seating and crimping in one operation. J bullets and taper crimps I do in 2 steps.

[mdi]

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=53_54 Ranch Dog has .44 Lee FCD (collet style)...

[Revolver]

I ended up grinding the end of the die, then I smoothed it out with sandpaper. Work perfect now, thanks everyone!

[10x]

A cast bullet needs just enough crimp to keep it in the case during recoil and to keep it from being pushed while loaded in a tube magazine. This is also enough crimp for the powders that need a bit of crimp to build pressure so they burn properly.
It does not have to be a heavy roll crimp - that does shorten case life.

If your bullets are not moving during recoil or being pushed in in a tube magazine, you do have enough crimp.

A die that makes a light crimp that is effective is much more desirable than a die that produces a heavy crimp that is not needed.

[ipijohn]

I agree with MikeS. Removing metal from the top of the shell holder does nothing to increase the crimp IF THE DIE IS ALREADY TOUCHING THE SHELL HOLDER.

[10x]

I agree with MikeS. Removing metal from the top of the shell holder does nothing to increase the crimp IF THE DIE IS ALREADY TOUCHING THE SHELL HOLDER.

Removing metal fromt the top of the shell holder will allow the shell holder to push the case just a bit further into the die. It is the distance from the base of the case to the crimp ring that is shortened. The same effect can be had by shortening the die.
Either way the case moves into the die just a little more and one may get a slight increase in crimp.

[Revolver]

Yes, the same effect can be achieved by thinning the TOP of the shellholder or shortening the BOTTOM of the die. Either allows the brass to go deeper into the die.

I only chose to shorten the die because it seemed a lot easier to hold onto while grinding and there was more metal to remove than on the shellholder depending on how far I needed to take it.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yes, trimming the shell holder or the die gets the same result, but it just makes sense to mess with the shell holder as it much less costly.

As per the recommendation to contact RCBS, YES!!!!!!!! AS said they are very good on customer service and will work with you for a solution.

I have a set of RCBS .44special/.44 mag dies and have had 2 or 3 sets over the years which ALL did just fine.

There is no need to waste money on after market crimpers as properly adjusted, -read properly adjusted - they WILL do the job in fine fashion.

I have a Redding profile crimp die on my bench, and I could never see that it did anything beyond remove money from my pocket.

In short, it does not get used and has not been for years.

Forget the Lee product, as said earlier properly adjusted the RCBS die will do everything needed and if not, contact RCBS to work out the details.

A Lee die in this situation is just another way to take money from your pocket, and yes, I have some Lee Factory Crimp Dies on my bench.

Now, "properly adjusted" does not always mean following the manufactures directions to the letter. For example the RCBS instructions to adjust a bottle neck full or neck sizing die are way off the mark.

If you would read the Hornady instructions for those type dies, you'll find they come MUCH closer to reality then RCBS.

Sorry, off the subject of crimping .44mag brass, but I will gladly share a document which addresses proper bottle neck die set up with anyone who will send me a PM.

The point is, sometimes you need to work through proper adjustments beyond what the manufacture supplies.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Cadillo]

Now if you have adjusted the die so that it contacts the shellholder at its highest point, and then pull the shellholder in order to remove some material from the top, replace the shellholder and then attempt to crimp without adjusting the die further downward, there would be no change effected. We have to think about what we are doing here.

The same applies whether you remove material from the shellholder or die. You must ultimately adjust the die and thus the crimping portion down closer to the press ram, which remains a constant distance from the case head, whichever part you alter. :smile:

[ipijohn]

Now if you have adjusted the die so that it contacts the shellholder at its highest point, and then pull the shellholder in order to remove some material from the top, replace the shellholder and then attempt to crimp without adjusting the die further downward, there would be no change effected. We have to think about what we are doing here.

The same applies whether you remove material from the shellholder or die. You must ultimately adjust the die and thus the crimping portion down closer to the press ram, which remains a constant distance from the case head, whichever part you alter. :smile:


+1 on what you just explained!

[MikeS]

Ok, I understand how it works now, thanks everyone for making me think about it more.