45 brass Measurements

[jimkim]

Let me rephrase this.

This will require measuring some brass. If you would, size some 45 ACP or Colt brass and tell me the diameter and what brand or type of die used.

My 45 acp brass measures .466" in diameter after being sized with my Hornady New Dimension dies. I want to know if this is normal or if I'm overworking the brass.

[GRUMPA]

I did a couple of 45acp and here's what I got. At the case mouth I get .467 in the middle I get .467 and at the base right next to the extractor groove I get ..472 and that's with checking with my carbide tipped blade micrometers and I'm using RCBS carbide dies with a date of 84. Hope this helps.

[44Vaquero]

Lee 45 dies Winchester brass @ case mouth .468
above ex. .471
Hornady nd dies Winchester brass @ case mouth .468
above ex. .471

Who's brass are you working with?

[jimkim]

It's mixed. I measured Federal(3), Fiocchi(2), Speer(3) and Winchester(3) brass. With my vernier mike I'm getting .4662" at the case mouth and 0.4715" at the extractor groove. I loaded a few rounds using my FCD as a sizer. The loaded rounds measured 0.4725" at the mouth and 0.4746" at the groove. They fit my gauge. I'm going to try a few of them and see how they shoot.

[jimkim]

They fed from the magazine into the barrel just fine, but they all stove-piped. Their was a little unburned powder in the barrel. I'm guessing not enough neck tension to let the pressure build. I wouldn't have figured that would be a problem with BE.

[44Vaquero]

Ok, so you are using bullseye. What is the charge weight and bullet weight?

[jimkim]

The charge from this morning is 4.5gr. The boolit weight is 230gr. It works fine when I use the Hornady sizing die. That's the only thing I changed.

[44Vaquero]

I do not use the LEE Factory Crimp dies for pistols. Some people like them others don't. I do how ever seat and taper crimp in 2 separate operations. Hornady seating die and a Lee taper crimp die. I have found that it is easier to control both the bullet seating depth and the amount of crimp applied. I load on a progressive so the extra operation is not an issue.

Stick with the Hornady new dim dies for now and go back to the manufactures directions for adjusting the seating/crimp die. I usually start there and go in 1/3 to 1/2 turns until the crimp is what I want.

[jimkim]

The problem, as I saw it, was over working my brass, and having rounds too far bellow SAAMI specs. IDK what the tolerance is but it bothered me.

I ended up using my FCD body to full length size the brass. To keep the proper neck tension I sized the top 3/16" or so of the case with the Hornady sizer**. My rounds look like they came from the Winchester factory now.

The measurements are: COL-1.193"(with Lee 425-230-TC sized to 0.452"), case mouth dia.-0.473", dia. next to groove-0.475". Average of 5 rounds measured with ST 1" mike and digital calipers.

**I tried ten rounds using just the FCD to size the brass. While the measurements looked good, the cases had insufficient neck tension. I was getting an incomplete burn with 4.5gr BE of all things. The cases also failed to eject due to the reduced slide speed. I went back in and loaded a few after "neck sizing" the brass. This brought the slide speed back up. I got a good complete burn. I can't wait to work up some accuracy(I hope)loads.

I am using the Hornady seating die as directed. They sent me a SWC seating plug the other day. I guess mine only came with the RN plug. I am a lot happier with the dies now that the seating die will seat TC boolits straight.

Thanks Grumpa and 44Vaquero for indulging me. I guess sometimes I get a burr in my saddle and have to work it out.

[44Vaquero]

As long as you are happy with the current production, that's all that matters. I know it can be very frustrating when things just are not adding up. I am the same way "like a dog with a bone" I can't stop until I am satisfied.
Good Luck and good shooting!

[blackhawk44]

The FCD is not a sizer. Loaded ACP rounds should have plenty of neck tension and a taper crimp, with bullets seated so that the round sits flush with the barrel hood (assuming you are shooting a 1911). Remove the barrel for testing.

Unless you shoot exclusively on indoor ranges, you will likely loose you brass in the grass well before wearing it out. That is why you scrounge the spent brass of those that don't reload.

[jimkim]

The FCD is not a sizer. Loaded ACP rounds should have plenty of neck tension and a taper crimp, with bullets seated so that the round sits flush with the barrel hood (assuming you are shooting a 1911). Remove the barrel for testing.

Unless you shoot exclusively on indoor ranges, you will likely loose you brass in the grass well before wearing it out. That is why you scrounge the spent brass of those that don't reload.

Your right. It's a squeezer. :kidding:

[Old Caster]

An FCD is an ill advised attempt at a fix for some other problem. It is never necessary when things are done correctly and a covering of a problem and not a correction. -- Bill --

[jimkim]

I have revised the order now. It should be less offensive to traditionalists.
1) Partially size the case.
2) Bell and charge the case.
3) Seat and crimp the bullet.
4) Use FCD to finish size the case.

My finished diameters are now holding +0.0000/-0.0015" of SAAMI specs. My 0.452" bullets are still 0.452" when I pull them.

One of my friends asked me to post the inside diameter of a sized case. Measured at the mouth they averaged 0.442". I still think the sizing die is way too small. I don't want to bother the good folks at Hornady, especially after they sent me a free SWC seating plug, but I guess I'll call them on Monday.

[oldscool]

Varying case wall thickness at the neck may throw you a curve if you are looking to hold 0.0000/-0015 tolerances, especially when using different hs brass. I would be more concerned as why the brass is growing next to the groove afer sizing. After all is said and done, if your reloads fit in your chamber gage or drop in your barrel flush with the hood, don't worry, be happy or something.

If you really do not like how much your brass is being undersized, you can special order a die made to your specifications. I will pick up my brass when handy, but lose a lot in tall grass or lazyness, so I do not worry about overworking it. Think it would take a lot of loadings on the same brass to split a 45acp if loaded reasonably.

[jimkim]

Or I could just do what works for me and it won't be an issue.

[Mooseman]

As I told you on the phone Jim...I will stick with RCBS or Lyman dies . Hornadys New Dimension Dies are apparently the WRONG Dimension. LOL
Good Luck Buddy !
Rich

[David2011]

Lyman's 49 Edition shows the mouth spec to be .473". I try to keep mine between .469 and .471 to make sure the burn gets started properly because the load I shoot is very light- 650 fps with a 200 grain SWC. I can't tell you off the top of my head the diameter of a freshly sized case; only the loaded and crimped spec that runs flawlessly in my steel plate gun. I seat and taper crimp in separate steps.

It took a LOT of work to get the gun (1911) to be fully reliable at such a light load but is it ever fun to shoot! The mechanics of the action are now glass smooth and the balance between the recoil spring and the load is a delicate balance. Going above 700 fps makes the balance and reliability much easier to achieve.

David

[Old Caster]

FCD stands for Frustrating Condition Diverted. When using an FCD you are just diverting a problem that shouldn't even be there. The last thing I would look for is if the dies are not in spec. Make sure that you aren't over crimping because some dies when adjusted to over crimp will make the tip of the brass start to curl back out misleading the loader into making even more crimp and hence curling the front of the brass even more. I have seen it often with 9 mm, probably because it is harder to see what was done and harder to measure. The last person I saw that had that problem was using RCBS dies and I am sure the dies are not at fault. The best way to correct this is to back off where you are not crimping at all and then slowly increase crimp and measure until you hit .470 or in some cases .469 at the end of the brass. It is hard to measure this accurately because it is so difficult to tell when the caliper slides off the brass and onto the bullet. Obviously make sure your caliper is reading correctly first. The last thing that is important is that the edge of the bullet sticks out somewhere near .030 to maybe .060 thousandths of an inch in front of the brass edge. When using mixed brass which may vary in length greatly you must find the middle ground so it doesn't get seated too deeply or isn't up enough to cause the bullet to not want to chamber properly. If you are dealing with a round nose bullet, make sure that the front edge where the bullet is full size is seated as mentioned above. After a long loading session, lube might get in front of the bullet and get stuck on the seating die and make them too deep making some rounds in your pile work while others won't

If you want, let me know and I will send you some brass ( no charge) that I sized without flare and some with flare so you can complete the process and prove one way or another if that is part of your problem. Since no one I know that shoots in my bullseye group uses an FCD, or ever would, I know they are not necessary. All of these people have match barrels which have tighter chambers than stock which would make it even harder to get a load to feed. I can also send a mock round (without powder or primer) that you can measure off of. -- Bill --

[jimkim]

Maybe the Hornady dies are for tight chambers. That might explain things. I sent you a PM. Thanks Bill.

[Old Caster]

I will send you a variety of cases of different lengths and brands so you can ponder the differences. None of the very accuracy insistant people that I shoot Bullseye with worry about brass except one and he is new and feels that he can't leave a stone unturned. He will eventually change because the top shooters, (2600 and up) use range pickups also. The only thing we don't use is small primer brass and that is because we don't have enough which makes it not worth keeping them seperate. I'll also send you some Saeco 069 cast bullets which are the most accurate bullet we can come up with including jacketed. -- Bill --

[35remington]

I would simply use the Hornady dies. If you think the sizing is excessive and will cause shortened case life, I would submit that your fears are completely unfounded.

I have some dies that size to the same diameter as yours (RCBS). I have four 45 ACP die sets. I think you are complaining about a very typical sizing dimension.

Let's do some simple math. Measurement of case wall thickness on some of my 45 ACP brass is 0.011." Multiply that times two and I get 0.022." Doing the same with other brass and I get 0.020" because it is a thou thinner in the case wall.

0.466" minus 0.020" gets .446" ID of the case. Some bullets in 45 ACP measure .450" on their bearing surface (for example, Remington Golden Saber) and most are near .451." This is a mere two thousandths to two and a half thousandths friction fit on each side. Much thinner than the thickness of a piece of paper. For cast bullets it's three thousandths for a .452" bullet. Not a lot.

Firm friction fit, which is absolutely, overwhelmingly important in 45 ACP, is positively assured. That's the most important factor of all, and I doubt you have "too much."

I fail to see the value of sizing the case in the FCD after the bullet is loaded. It may not hurt the bullet diameter, but it adds nothing to pull. Simply use the Hornady dies as is.

[jimkim]

.452" - .446" = .003"? lol JK

Thanks Bill, I'm sure once my new sizing die gets here I'll go back to doing things the old way. Since my surgery I don't get out much and have begun to scrutinize things more closely. I used to just measure the COL, push on the boolit, and drop the round in my gauge then my barrel. If it passed all of that, and shot good, that was good enough. I guess I just need to get well so I can go back to work, and occupy my mind with other things.

Thanks a lot 35Remington, now I'm thinking about testing the pressure needed to push a seated and crimped boolit into a case.

[35remington]

As I said, .446" is three thousandths per side fit for a .452" bullet. Reread my post.....the paragraph makes this clear.

For pressure needed to unseat a bullet, use just the FCD for less sizing and try a .452" bullet in it. If this is not enough friction fit, and most Lee FCD size to a .470-.471" OD of the case mouth, then the needed amount is probably in increments of 0.002" more than this. If that puts us in the range of .468" for a .452" bullet, it starts to become apparent just why .466" OD is really not excessive.

[jimkim]

I finally got around to testing some tonight. A few of the rounds didn't fit my Dillon gauge, but all of them fit my barrel. I ended up with a COL of 1.255-1.258". I guess the XD needs a little bit over 1.250" to go slide into full battery. Not sure why. I'm not seeing any real difference in accuracy, but my pistol is stock and I've only tried 4.8gr of BE so far. I hope to try Red Dot, AA#7, and Unique if the rain will stay away long enough to test. If I can find a rest, Ill try it. My hands shake a little since my last surgery and I can't really do it justice right now. It may be the meds I'm on. Thanks again Bill.

[gray wolf]

most times 35 REM gets it correct,
Cept when he fights with me about head space. ( Laughing over here. )

[r1kk1]

He will eventually change because the top shooters, (2600 and up) use range pickups also. I'll also send you some Saeco 069 cast bullets which are the most accurate bullet we can come up with including jacketed. -- Bill --

That's some serious shooting! 2600 out of a possible 2700. Wow!

Take care

r1kk1

[Old Caster]

One of our guys shot a 2633-110x recently and may have shot a better score another time that I am not aware of. I think he has shot quite a few over 2600 scores. We have 6 that I know of that have shot 2600, one who did it in his late 60's and another relatively young man that surely will as soon as he figures out how to shoot rapid fire with his 45. He will get it soon but right now it is eating him up. One time a good score and the next time terrible. A lot of the guys are old, and not very many young ones seem to be interested anymore. The top guys just like in a lot of clubs might have become world class if it weren't that their priorities were family first. -- Bill --

[jimkim]

Bill, I made my 2nd attempt today. I ended up bumping the charge up to 5.0gr to increase the slide speed. I shot a ten round group and the first seven were pretty tight for a bone stock pistol. The last three began to vertically string. I only had one failure to feed. I think I could do more with this bullet, but first I'd need to either build a 1911 or rebuild this one. The XD seems to prefer my Lee 230gr TC's. It could just be that they fit my barrel a little better though. My newest 0.452" sizer actually sizes them about a half thousandth over.

[Old Caster]

I don't know about the XD's but most match barreled 1911's like a .451 if the bullet is hard and .451 or 2 if they are soft. Loading dies vary but my Dillon expander will size my brass so it will swage a bullet that is in the range of 8 BHN down to a little over .451
Nowadays building a 1911 isn't so difficult as it was because so many manufacturers now do well at matching a frame to a slide when it was by hand only 20 years ago. All that is necessary is to install a match barrel and bushing and possibly a different link and you are good to go. You can get a drop in barrel and bushing but it is best to have a lathe so the bushing can fit tight in the front of the slide of an individual gun.

[jimkim]

I guess everything is drop in now. Do they still make the old collet type bushings?

[Old Caster]

I think the collet bushings on Colts were phased out in the late 80's and I don't know if anyone else is using them. I never had one but no one I know liked them or the series 80 trigger system. They were both avoided like the plague. If you want to do a match barrel on a 45, and you work with tools at all, you can do it. The outside of a bushing can even be fitted with a drill by making a wooden plug that can go in a drill and be spun. With a flat edge of the right size with fine sandpaper, material is taken off very slowly until it is a tight fit. Slowly is definitely the mantra because just a tiny bit too small and it will be loose.-- Bill --