Any Arkansans here?

[MBTcustom]

Is there somebody doing this in central Arkansas? Sure would like to see what all the hype is about.

[felix]

What hype are you talking about, Tim? ... felix

[Reload3006]

not in central arkansas I do however have a farm 20miles across the border in south central missouri

[MBTcustom]

What hype are you talking about, Tim? ... felix
Well, I can't imagine why you would spend all that time and money to duplicate what you buy from the store, when there are so many good attributes to cast boolits......and yet there is this whole section dedicated to such things.
That, and I have been asked about swaging some special gas checks, and I have a buddy that will sell me a 20 ton punch press for cheap.............
I have no experience with swaging anything. I have set up punch presses before, and made dies for them, but that was all geared towards cutting and forming sheet metal. I am a little curious about it, and I thought "what the heck? I'll just ask if there's somebody local that can show me how to poke the bear." Then I can decide if its something I want to get into in the future. Besides, If I were of a mind to, I could make my own dies for such a project as well as the press.

[DukeInFlorida]

Well, Tim........

That would prompt the question:

Q: Why buy cast boolits when you can buy them from the store?
A: Because we can make em cheaper than buying. And, we can (as is the case with cast boolits) make them when we want them, in the weight we want, and in the configuration we want, without worrying if the store (whether local bricks and mortar or internet) has them in stock. And, there are some situations (AR15's, M1A's, etc) where you don't want to send too many cast boolits down the pipe. And, perhaps some day Mr Obummer will put the stop to sales of commercial bullets (proper j words), and I will smile and be thankful I make my own.

There are a bunch of additional thoughts that come to mind, including the fact that most if not all of the important Benchrest shoots are won by swagers. The bullets they swage are MUCH more precise than any commercial bullet.

I can send a swaged bullet down the pipe at a MUCH faster velocity than any gas checked cast bullet could travel.

My pistol swaged bullets are exact copies of the Hornady XTP style bullets, and are virtually free.

My rifle swaged bullets aren't bench rest quality, but are very high quality, and also virtually free.

I'm a bit far away (Maine) or I would be happy to have you stop on by for a demo of my swaging abilities.

[MBTcustom]

Interesting! I don't know how you get "much" more precise than Sierra matchkings though. Or Berger bullets. They all weigh within .02 grains of each-other batch to batch (at least so far). I can sympathize with making your own when the supply runs out, but I am dying to know how you can claim that copper (or guilding material) is "virtually free"?
Not calling BS, just trying to understand this. I am paying $1 per pound for lead, and I thought you needed lead wire to swage bullets out of and last I looked, that wire was commanding a darn sight more than $1 per pound. As far as the jackets go, where can you get free jacket material (outside of .22LR cases)? If I swage, I will be looking to get set up for .358 caliber boat-tails and flat nosed bullets for a 35 Whelen, and 30caliber boat tails for a 300WinMag.
How does any of that equal cheap shootin?
Again, not trying to offend, just asking the big questions that have kept me out of this slice of reloading hitherto.
I see an expensive custom press.
I see expensive custom lead wire.
I see really expensive jacket material.
Hmmmmm, what am I missing?
I know I'm asking for a free education, but you guys have never let me down before!

[ReloaderFred]

While I only swage handgun bullets at the present time, I can answer some of the easier questions.

My bullets for the most part are made from cartridge cases for jackets and soft cast bullets for cores. The brass is mostly picked up off the range for free and the lead is scrounged wherever I can find it. Harder lead alloy is traded for soft lead.

I make .38 and 9mm bullets from either .32 acp or .380 acp brass. My .40 and .41 caliber bullets are made from 9mm brass, while my .44 and .45 bullets are made from .40 S&W brass. I've yet to purchase brass in any of these calibers.

For cores, I simply cast a bullet for the size core I need. In the case of .38/.357 bullets, I cast a 100 gr. .32 caliber bullet from nearly pure lead. For the .44 bullets I cast a pure lead bullet in one of my 158 gr. .38 bullet molds, etc..

The cores are placed into the cartridge cases/bullet jackets, then stacked on trays and put into a ceramics kiln a friend has loaned me. I heat them up to 1150 degrees F. and let them cool over night inside the kiln. The next day, or when I'm in the mood, I fully seat the cores in a seating die, even though the lead has melted into the jacket. This ensures a uniform jacket/core and better final bullet.

After seating the cores, I run them through a crimping die, which imparts a 6 petal crimp to the case. Then the crimped cores and jackets are swaged in the final swaging die to form the nose and hollowpoint. I've been doing these steps on an RCBS Rockchucker and Hollywood Senior press, both of which are also used for loading ammunition.

After this is done, I put them into a citric acid bath for about half an hour and then rinse in cold water. After they've dried, I tumble in plain corn cob for about an hour and this imparts a high luster shine and removes any tarnish left after the acid bath.

After the bullets are tumbled, I then add a cannelure, after which they're ready to load.

The process is pretty labor intensive, but the results are really satisfying, to say the least.

I've purchased bullet jackets and core wire for some other projects, but it's not really necessary for everyday shooting.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Grandpas50AE]

Tim,
You have opened another door just like the one that got you hooked into casting....anyway, many of the guys here pick up range brass and are able to anneal it to deaad soft to form as a jacket material - ergo, the free jackets. As for the cores, some folks like myself do use lead wire for the cores when swaging small quantities of bullets, however, it is no problem to cast a slightly undersize pure lead boolit in a mold and use that for a core as well. For example, I could easily cast some pure lead .40 S&W boolits in a mold, then use those in a annealed and expanded .40 S&W case to make a great jacketed .45ACP bullet. Cost of the bullet is my time and whatever I paid for the scrap lead.

Duke states very well the advantages of swaging our own when jacketed bullets are needed, and again cost can be very small or a little less than factory if using becnhrest quality jackets that are purchased. Still, by doing it ourself we have control over the exact configuration, such as bonded cores, rebated boattails, etc.

By asking here, you will indeed get another education like the one you got for casting. That's a good thing though, just opens up one's horizons. PM me if you would like a longer discussion, and we can set up a time to talk on the phone as well. Still hope to get a chance to come visit later this year when I come up to Arkansas for deer season.

Good shooting, keep learning.

[1874Sharps]

It has been very interesting to read this thread. As King Agrippa said to Paul in Acts 26:28, "Thou persuadest me almost ... " If I get a chunk of money so that I might buy a few more pieces of equipment I will see about getting into this thing called swaging. I must say, though, that for my purposes thus far, a good ol' cast boolit seems to fill the need pretty well. It would be nice to have the capability, for sure, however, given the times we live in.

[Grandpas50AE]

Sharps,
I'll add a side-note for you. The problem with cast is they will plug up a gas-operated action and cause malfuntions at a very inopportune time. With swaging a jacketed bullet, nor problem on the gas ports. A good example would be an AR-15 type rifle, or my Desert Eagle 50AE, both of which are gas operated and not very tolerant of lead/lube build-up in the gas mechanism.
When factories make their jacketed bullet runs they have several sets of production lines with each having its own set of dies, and although those dies are very close, they do vary in dimension, and the variance is somewhat increased by the adjustments to each dies set at set-up time. The bullet that rolls off line 1 mya have a different run-out or slight variation in the ogive than the one coming off line 2, but they all get dumped together for finishing and packaging. When you swage your own, all of them come from the same die, meaning they have exactly the same dimension in length, ogive shape, etc. This is why many winning benchrest shooters swage their own - complete control over dimensional variation.
Swaging is partly technology and repetition, but it is also partly art. It is yet another hobby in itself in a way, just as much as casting is. Most of my hunting boolits are cast, but a few of my firearms are not candidates for cast for the above-mentioned reasons, so they get swaged jacketed bullets. I make a 6-S spitzer for my AR-15 that weigh 69.5 gr. and will punch a 10 shot dime-sized hole at 50 yards with the iron sights it has on it, it would probably do even better with a scope considering my 61 year old eyes aren't what they used to be. My wife has shot two times at deer with the bolt action .223 using my bonded core bullets, and both deer went in the freezer. One pole-axed where he stood, the other made it 30 yards before collapsing. For the larger calibers, I would have no problem hunting deer with them (cast boolits), but the .223 just needs some help for that role.
Hope I haven't rambled too much.

[1874Sharps]

Grandpas50AE,

You are right about cast boolits not working so well in certain gas operated rifles. Some shoot cast boolits in the M1 Garand, although it is reported by some to cause problems with the gas system. One way I got around that problem was by using paper patched boolits in the M1. However, for the AR-15 I am stuck with either buying J-word bullets or swaging. Swaging would offer me a way to make inexpensive (muy cheapo) bullets for the AR and a few other calibers that I shoot. Not much extra money available on a VA pension, though. I hope my wife keeps working to support my lifestyle!

[Grandpas50AE]

Sharps,
believe me, I understand the limited funds. Over the years I acquired my Corbins swaging stuff, but there are vendor sponsors on this site that can get you set up for considerably less than what I have invested. For jacketed .223 bullets a regular RCBS RockChucker press will be more than sufficient, as would most O frame single stage loading presses, and there are a few die makers on this board that could make a basic set of dies (core swage die, core seat die, and point form die) for .223 that are considerably less expensive than my four-die Corbin set. The fourth die on my set is for final trim-shaping of the lead tip, but it isn't necessary if you wanted to make a jacketed HP, so you would only need a 3 die set. If you cast your own pure lead cores in a mold, and can keep the weight consistent, a core swage die isn't necessary (although it is nice to have). The lube used is pure anhydrous lanolin with a little castor oil or mineral oil mixed in to lossen it up a little, but a 1 pound tub will last many thousands of bullets worth of swaging and the tub I bought (2 lbs I think) 12 or 13 years ago is only half gone and cost me about $15 when I bought it. Look at a few of the vendor sponsors on this site to see what you could get a 2 die set ofr your reloading press for, and you could find it a lot less expensive to get started than you think.

Good shooting, be safe.

[runfiverun]

hmmm.
358 = 30 carbine cases. or downsized 223's
308 = copper tubing or 5.7 cases or 9mm cases. [9x21,38 super, would be good ok great]
you can swage cast boolits too, and help them along.
rnfp cast makes some darn good hollow points. rcbs 0-55's make good flat point softer lead small game boolits, i change 375449's into a 270 gr gas checked rnfp [with and without hollow point] in my 44 set
i/you can do all kinds of stuff with a swage set.
a little trial and error and some imagination will lead you down a long path.

[Sasquatch-1]

I had the same opinion as Goodsteel for a long time. Why buy all the expensive equipment when a $1000.00 would buy a heck of a lot of jacketed bullets. That was until just recently when I wanted some in the 240 grn ranged. I couldn't find any on the internet or at any local shops. Finally decided it was time. I wish I had done it 30 years ago. I am hooked.

Also check out videos buy Ammosmith and Daywalker627 on youtube.

[DukeInFlorida]

For the sake of clarification, the swaging that we talk about here is typically NOT for benchrest shooting.

The benchrest shooters buy expensive jackets (copper). They go to great extremes in their swaging process to assure that everything is the EXACT same. They weigh and measure every component to that extent. They even weigh and measure the final assembled bullet. Benchrest shooter swaged bullets (which actually get sent down their barrel) have zero variance in weight and diameter/length. They weigh and sort each one, using only the best of the best for shooting. Benchrest bullets, even though self swaged, are always much more expensive than the best factory bullets.

The hunting and plinking swaged bullets we discuss here aren't nearly that precise. But, I'll tell you what................ the bullets I swage are at least as good as any factory bullets I could buy for use in my guns. The aim points are the same as for any factory bullets of similar weight and shape.

As others have described, we use free or almost free components for the jackets (typically brass cases from some other caliber.) And, the lead is either cast boolits (pistol cores) or lead wire. I have a simple extrusion die which I use for extruding my own virtually free soft lead wire. I made a core pre-form cutter from scrap angle iron, to chop the extruded lead wire into chunks of the right weight. Those pre-forms get further refined into cores in a core die which makes the diameter and length perfectly the same, and bleeds off excess lead.

If you want to get really fancy, you can even sort the brass jackets by weight, and come up with very precise swaged rifle bullets for almost free. Lots of time invested, but free bullets.

I haven't cut back on casting. Or cut back on reloading. Or cut back on shooting. I just made some additional time available for swaging. It's almost like an additional new hobby. Except, like casting boolits, it also feeds directly into my passion for reloading.

[MBTcustom]

Yeah cuz, umm, I watched the videos and I'll stick to my Seirra matchkings. What I saw looked like a really time consuming way to install a gas check on a boolit without lube grooves. I mean I just dont get it! Why go to all the trouble to swage a bullet that is going to go less than 1400 FPS? Why not just cast it, stick on a gas check and shoot it? If you are shooting high speed bullets out of a rifle, you had better be getting up pretty early in the morning to do better than the factory offerings and my hat would be off to you if you could. I saw nothing on those videos that resembled a clean sharp honest to goodness long distance bullet. The ones made out of .22 brass were pretty sharp, but those fragment too easily for shooting anything bigger than a coyote.
I mean I'm seeing pistol bullets that need to be soft and easily expanding being made with heavy jackets that would give good results in the 2000FPS range (that's just my uninformed opinion) and rifle bullets with super thin jackets that will come apart too easily. What gives? What advantages do these swaged pistol bullets have over a regular cast lead? You must be getting something for all that effort.
Also, do any of you swage rifle bullets that will perform on par with matchgrade projectiles? Is it cheaper?
How do you make "bonded cores"?
I consider the regular cast lead boolit to be the most effective projectile, for cost and performance, on the face of the earth, so I don't see the percentage in swaging them out of super hard material to the detriment of performance.
My possible interest in swaging will be making precision bullets for rifles that are too blazin fast for cast lead. That, and I humbly admit that I cannot get the long range accuracy out of cast lead that I can with jacketed. I have only two rifles that fall into this class, a 300winmag and a 35whelen that I am in the process of building. Both these rifles are to be used at 200 yard + ranges and cast lead will not do.
What do you think?

[Reload3006]

well there is no one answer for you. the same argument you give for not swaging can be given for reloading or casting. You are right its a lot of dime to drop on a whim. If you dont like reloading and only do it because your going to save a few pennies. There is absolutely no reason to swage. That is until you go to get that certain bullet you love and guess what nobody makes or sells it anymore. Or for that odd caliber. Or obsolete rifle that nobody makes anything for anymore. I got into swaging because When BO got elected there was such mass hysteria I couldnt buy 44 bullets. I have a Ruger Deerfield Carbine that specifically tells you DO NOT SHOOT LEAD BULLETS IN THIS RIFLE. I chose to heed that warning. So for a year that rifle was out of action because I was not going to pay almost 80.00 for a box of ammo for it. I started researching how to roll my own. I went the RCE route and dont regret it. One doesnt have to get that expensive but I can make bullets that will shoot with the best of them and I will always be able to make and have ammo. My reasons you may find others or reject them all. Yep its a lot of money. I guess I do it because I can and if you buy better casting gear like RCBS or LYman Or MAgma , star lubrisizer or Lyman or RCBS, Various quality molds in different weights Such as NOE MP RCBS ETC your investment is the same as or higher than swaging.

[MBTcustom]

I'm not afraid of spending money. I just like to be getting something for it. I told you that I am interested only in long range boat tail bullets. I am asking why would I swage them rather than buy them?
Do I get a product that is so much better than factory that it makes the expense worth it?
Do I get a product that is so much cheaper than factory that it makes my money back, thereby making the expense worth it?
I didn't start the thread to bust on your hobby by any means! I'm just trying to see if there is a place on my bench for such a setup. I already have a C&H set for making HP 357 bullets, and 2000 jackets for them, but I never even stuck it on the press because its easier to cast SWC with my lee 6 cavity mold, and my guns like them just fine. It always seemed like a really time consuming way to get to the same place.

[TAMU74]

I have a quick question, and I'm not trying to be a wisea**, but I got to wondering if Arkansawyer, an archaic term or a dirty word?

[Reload3006]

some bench-rest friends of mine that kind of mentored me when I started out. Flat told me if you want to loose a bench-rest match use factory bullets. but these guys are highly anal and can shoot better than I will ever hope to shoot. they buy sierra and J4 jackets but they may find 200 out of a 1800 bucket they consider to be match worthy. and my RCE gear is not in their opinion anything more than a beginners place they use Deutsch Niemi swage dies and they pay thousands for them. but their goal is one hole at 800yds ... not my goal.

[MBTcustom]

their goal is one hole at 800yds
That's insane! Never in a million years will I need that level of accuracy (he says with crossed fingers and toes and a hopeful heart) but I would like to be able to make boat tail bullets that are accurate enough to give me tomato paste can sized groups at 600 yards, and cost 50% of factory offerings.
Is that possible?

[Reload3006]

dont know that your going to save that much but the accuracy is there. and like reloading you can match your projectiles to your gun. instead of taking what the factory has to offer. Boat tails are going to cost you more for the tooling but I have Rebated boat tail sets for my .224 and 30 caliber. I dont think im going to go boat tail in my .270 and 7mm when I finally pony up. cant see that I would ever need that as you know boat tails are only helpful in the extreme long range when a bullet transfers from sonic to trans sonic flight.

[felix]

Yes, Tim, possible, but not likely without learning to shoot that well (weatherman foremost, marksman secondary). You can't hit what you cannot ACCURATELY see without needed comprehension of what you are seeing. Back to the 44man syndrome as well: Mind over matter. ... felix

[Sasquatch-1]

Goodsteel,

If you shoot 44 spl or mag I will send 10 bullets I made if you would like to try them. It is the least I can offer, considering a while back when I broke the rockchucker you were willing to help me out, even tho I did not take you up on it. If you are interested pm me with your address.

[DukeInFlorida]

Goodsteel, if you like Sierra match grade bullets, and you shoot less than a box a month, by all means buy them as long as you can. In fact, I suggest buying as many thousand of them as you can afford, while you can.

If you shoot more than that qty, say a box (100 or 250) a week, then a swaging set will save you $$$ quickly. If you're serious that you want to hit a tomato paste can at 500 yards, then you will either buy what you can for factory bullets, or you have to buy those really expensive (thousands of dollars) swaging sets, and J4 jackets. At some point you will have bullets better than your guns ability to shoot them.

I'll put my 5.7X28 FN brass case jacketed swaged bullets in my off the rack Remington 700, which I have tweaked, and worked up a load for these swaged bullets... against any gun you have with your Sierra factory boat tails. Yup, my swaged bullets are that good.

"F" Class shooting is a whole other animal. In other words, Bench Rest Shooting.... If that's what you are after............ skip this section entirely.

If you're after very good bullets for plinkin and hunting, at even long distances, READ ON.........

[MBTcustom]

If you're after very good bullets for plinkin and hunting, at even long distances, READ ON.........
That is what I am after. I have about 2500 pulled Sierra matchkings waiting in the wings, and they shoot quite well. Unfortunately they are all 30 caliber bullets, and I need a good 35 caliber. Also, I am a machinist and a gunsmith and I have a complete machineshop bought and paid for, so if I get into this, I will be making my own tooling. I am trying to justify the time and materials in my mind without regaurd for the cost of a heavy duty press. The jackets are what is scaring me right now, and I was thinking that you made them out of raw material rather than buying them already swaged. I would be thinking of making my own jackets as well. I just don't know if its really worth the pain. I don't shoot but maybe 400 rounds per year out of any one rifle, and I am just a casual target shooter and a serious hunter.
Oh and Sasquatch-1, I don't own a 44, but I appreciate the offer!

[Reload3006]

35 caliber is another matter again I could be wrong but in 35 caliber no sierra jackets and im not sure about J4. but your right there in 1/4 type l copper tubing range. good hunting bullets but not so much for matches.

[DukeInFlorida]

400 rounds per year is not a bench rest shooter.

Here's the tough part about even making your own tools............

The learning curve for the tool design is STEEP!

Even if your time and materials are free, you'd spend hundreds of hours trying to get the tools right. There's a lot to the design and manufacturing of swaging tools that don't jump right out at you. Guys like BT Sniper have spent hundreds/thousands of hours modifying CH4D tools to see how they work, and how to make them better.

Following his footsteps is the way to shorten your learning curve. However, CH4D is all but out of most sizes, and those will take a long time for them to make for you.

The process involves custom reamers, sending tools out for hardening, and getting the ejection system right. It also involves getting the relationships for starting and ending diameters right. That's where most people fail at doing their own.

[Sasquatch-1]

Here is a video from a guy who made his own jacket forming dies. It may help in your decision. There are 3 to 4 parts to this but a lot of what yoyu might be interested in is in the first video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZfvuwPTTaI

[DukeInFlorida]

Ammosmith also has a series:

http://youtu.be/SN_fYyl8pEw

[MBTcustom]

I watched Ammosmiths videos and I thought they were pretty slick, but those 22LR jackets would not do for the type of hunting that I do.

[DukeInFlorida]

So, it's hunting that you are really focusing on.

BT Sniper has some images of some of the large game he has taken with his own swaged bullets, made from brass jackets. The bullets were very accurate and obviously effective.

[Sasquatch-1]

Here's another reason to swage. Went to the range and recovered a bunch of bullets.
46290 46291
The bullets in the red lid are bullets that I swaged the empty brass is jackets that lost the lead somewhere along the way. I have been told, but have not tried, that if you put a little solder paste in the brass and melt the core into the jacket it holds much better.

46292 46293

These are the best of the factory jackets for mushrooming.

46294 46295

And these are the rest of what I recovered. This is all of it with nothing held back.

Notice how nice and uniform the swaged bullets expanded. I am sure if I had found more they would have been very similar.

BTW, The bullets in the large batch that look like they may have expnded greatly, appear to have been hit by other bullets.