Question re: 9mm light primer strikes

[MikeyPooh]

Hi guys. So I've actually started shooting some of my reloads, taking my time, going slow, getting safe experience is my number one goal at this point.

I can take a picture of the cartridge if anyone thinks it would help, but here is my issue.

I am using Lee dies and cheap 115 gr FMJ bullets, and Remington small pistol primers to reload 9mm. Overall cartridge length 1.15" I went a bit long as I have read plenty of warnings about this round going over pressure in a hurry if the bullet is seated too deeply. The gun is a Glock 17.

The first batch of 50 worked flawlessly, so I was happy. The next time out to the range I had one round not go off. It fired on the second primer strike. I chalked that up to just random whatever. Then it happened again and I started to get concerned, and the third time it happened (just today) well I'm going to stop now and see if anyone has any ideas what could be causing this for me. The only thing I think might be going on... it seems the seating/crimping die is tough to get adjusted properly. I have ruined a few bullets when the crimp was applied too heavily, and I have had to pull down several rounds that were so lightly crimped the bullet would spin and or sink into the case with light pressure. So I'm wondering if, to make sure the bullet is held in place properly, I'm putting too much crimp on, which is letting the cartridge drop a bit too deep into the chamber and causing a light primer strike. Has anyone heard of anything like this? If this is even possible, how would I go about fixing it? Would that mean that the sizing die is out of spec maybe?

Thanks for reading and for any advice for this noob.

[1874Sharps]

It sounds like you are roll crimping your rounds. Anything but the lightest of roll crimps will cause excessive headspace in the 9mm (headspace is the fit of the cartridge in the chamber, put simply). If there is excessive headspace you may very well get a light strike on the primer since the cartridge will be driven forward by the striker/firing pin due to the excessive headspace. If a cartridge with excessive headspace does go off, the brass will "jack hammer" back into the breech. The higher the pressure of the cartridge, the more dangerous this condition is. It is strange that the bullets are not staying firm in the mouths of the cases without any crimping. Are you performing a full length resize on the brass? You may consider using a taper crimp die, if any crimp is used, to turn the bell of the case mouth back in after loading of the bullet.

[MikeyPooh]

Thanks for your reply - and that makes me think of another question.. yes, I've read that roll crimping is for revolver rounds, and taper crimps are for autoloaders - why don't manufacturers just make their dies that are typically used in autos taper crimp dies?

I don't know if I'm roll crimping or taper crimping. I'm just using the seating/crimping die in my Lee 9mm die set, and it's definitely putting on SOME kind of crimp, heh.

Yes, full length resize. I bottom the sizing die onto the ram, I get it as tight as I can with my fingers and then tighten the locking ring.

Edit: Also, I have tried putting the seating stem as deep as it will go, then adjusting the die to seat the bullet with no crimp (yes, I had heard you shouldn't really need a crimp for autos) and yeah, the bullet has almost no tension on it when I do it this way.

[oldandslow]

mp, 7/20/12

Most of the time a light primer strike is related to the primer not being seated fully when the primer is pressed into the primer pocket when reloading. If a repeated trigger pull fires the cartridge then it is even more likely this is the cause as the first trigger pull seated the primer deep enough so the second could fire it.

You want your primer to be about 1-3 thousandths of an inch below the face of the case base. If you take a loaded cartridge and hold it up against a light colored object (I use my white walls in the house) you can see if the primer is flush or sticking up above the base.

If you have a "high primer" in a fully loaded cartridge then you either need to disassemble the bullet and reseat the primer with an empty (no powder ) case or you can use it and expect it to fire on the second or third trigger pull. These high-primered cartridges actually make great pistol malfunction drills as you don't know when you will get that particular round in the chamber.

While it is true that your 9mm case is supposed to headspace off the case mouth what will usually happen if you overcrimp your case is that the extractor will hold the case high enough in the chamber so the firing pin will still fire the cartridge.

Other causes of light primer strikes include a lightened main/hammer spring. This is not such a problem in a new gun but may be a problem in used guns that have been worked on to decrease their trigger pull weight.

best wishes- oldandslow

[David2011]

MikeyPooh,

You didn't say how you're seating the primers. Knowing that might help get better answers. Another thought- does this happen with factory ammo? If not, it's not a striker impact issue but a primer or headspace problem. If it does happen with factory loads, the striker impact is probably light.

Both of the above answers are good ones. If you have a dial caliper (preferable to a micrometer in this instance IMO) measure the diameter of the mouth of the case just below the mouth ba a hair's breadth. Measuring on the mouth can give a false reading if there's any burr at all. Da book here says the mouth should measure .380" for 9mm. If the mouths are rolled the crimp can slip past the shoulder intended for headspacing in the chamber. putting the primer too far from the breechface and firing pin. Actually, any distance from the breechface is too far.

Remington primers aren't known for being particularly hard to ignite if properly seated. Another way to check them after running a finger over each primer is to stand the rounds primer down on a glass or other hard, smooth surface that's known to be flat- before you put the powder and bullet in so you can fix it if necessary. Cartridges with a proud primer will settle down slowly and with a lot of movement as they try to balance on the primer. Those with fully seated primers will settle down much more quickly and positively. You'll learn the difference in less than a minute once you try this. That's how I check my .223 cases for primer seating. They're pretty close to the same diameter as 9mm at the head.

If you bell the mouth of the cartridge to load it, you HAVE to run it through a crimp die or it won't feed reliably. All you need to do is straighten the flare out, though. It doesn't need to roll in. Inadequate neck tension, as you have learned, can lead to bullets seating too deeply when chambering which can lead to excessive pressure and other bad things. Some neck tension is also required to delay the movement of the bullet on ignition for consistent pressure to develop. Low tension will also lead to inaccuracy.

David

[MtGun44]

Too high primers. First strike seats the primer, second fires it.

TC in a separate die for semiautos.

Bill

[44Vaquero]

Lee dies after a certain year all have a modified taper crimp in the seat crimp/die for pistol calibers. If using plated or jacked bullets a separate die will not make much difference, cast bullets on the other hand will be a different story.
Most likely the issue is primer depth related as stated above. What type priming system are you using?

[MikeyPooh]

Ok, thanks for all the replies guys. Interesting you're all thinking it's a primer seating issue. The reason I didn't even bother mentioning that is that I really don't think that is it - I started reloading this past winter, and one local deal I did involved buying about 600 rounds of handloaded 41 Magnum ammo. Pulling all that down was a pain, but I did learn some things (what NOT to do). Essentially every primer in that lot of ammo wasn't seated properly. (I actually started a thread here to ask advice about that situation too) The guy was using a small primer plug to seat the large primers which left craters on most of the rounds, and probably 25% of the whole lot the primers were protruding to a certain amount.

So basically my introduction to handloaded ammo beat it into my head the need for proper priming technique.

I have an RCBS bench primer (which I really like). My technique is to seat the primer in one swift motion, so I can get a good feel of the primer hitting bottom in the case. Occasionally I don't use enough force and can't feel the primer land home, and when that happens I just gently increase the pressure on the arm for a bit. Then when removing the primed cartridge I run my finger over the primer on each and every case that I prime. After working with the 600 .41 cases, you can develop a feel pretty quickly of what is good and what is not good. (thanks for the tip of letting them sit and wobble, I will try that too I think)

Anyway, yeah, this is why I don't think it's the priming method/technique that's causing my issue. I really think it is related to the issue of not getting enough tension on the bullet... oh, and the cheap bullets I was loading have a pronounced radius on their base, so after the first 50 I stopped flaring the case mouth and the still seated just fine.

After some coffee I'll go process some brass and mic it and see what it is coming out as. Oh and as far as the age of the dies I have, I have no clue, got these from craigslist a couple months ago. Oh also, I have only shot 100 rounds of factory ammo through the gun so far - Winchester value pack - no issue with light primer strikes but that batch of ammo did have one round that stovepiped. I've heard that happens a fair bit now that Glock "improved" their design, heh.

[oldandslow]

mp, 7/20/12

There are some weird causes of light primer strikes besides high primers and lightened or worn out hammer springs. Sometimes there is crud in the firing pin channel which limits full movement of the firing pin, and I've even seen the firing pin dragging across a firing-pin-blocking safety limiting full firing pin strikes. However since your pistol works well with factory ammo it still has to be your reloads. Sometimes running a finger over the primer may not pick up a high primer as well as the methods discussed above. If possible can you post a few pictures of your unfired ammo which may help us help you find the problem.

good luck- oldandslow

PS- one other way to find out might be to disassemble some of the factory rounds which feed and function well in your pistol. Then take that primed factory case and load it with your reloads. If they function well then it is still a primer issue, if they don't function then it is not the primer.

[HeavyMetal]

The 9 can be a tough case to load!

Sort by head stamp then by length.

Buy a primer pocket reamer and do 100 cases as test lot load only these until you get it figured out.

Check your loading area for "aeromatic" solvents like WD40 this stuff will affect primers across

[1874Sharps]

MP,

I think I understood you to say that even after full length resizing that the bullet is not snug in the case. If this is so, your dies are not sizing the brass sufficiently or the bullets are undersize. Is it possible you are using 9mm Makarov dies?

[HeavyMetal]

Double check die / caliber markings for sure.

Steel or carbide dies? You may be seeing contamination with lube using steel dies.

Switch primer brands try Federals if available.

Change the springs in the Glock, not a fan of any of the plastic guns no matter what the caliber so I won't make any other suggestion as to the gun.

I can't stress enough the need for cases to be "right" in this caliber! Ken Waters found case
length varied over .020 in one box of 50 factory loads! Just imigine what you find in 1000!

In all honesty I'm thinking springs, loads worked well then performance fell, misfires, started showing up. Had a shotgun do the same thing and found out that's why it had been sold!

New springs fixed it for less than 10 bucks

keep us posted curious as to how you fix it.

[MikeyPooh]

Well now I am really confused, heh. I just processed 5 pieces of differently headstamped brass and took before and after measurements and as far as I can tell everything is kosher. I did use a micrometer, but I don't know how to read it to ten thousandths, so I eyeballed it a bit, but here's what I got. These are readings at the mouth.

RP: Before sizing: .381 After: .3755
FC: Before: .381 After: .375
CBC: Before: .381+ After: .375
Win: Before: .3805 After: .375
Blazer Before: .381 After: .375

So then I measured my dud cartridge at the mouth and it came up .3765
So then I took one of my freshly processed pieces of brass, put the bullet seater all the way down, and seated a bullet to 1.15" and then measured the mouth on that and got a reading of .378

And, maybe I am mis-remembering how I started my process and didn't begin with the seater all the way down, because this time it held the bullet just fine, no spinning, and I pressed with all my might and the bullet didn't budge. So I'm thinking perhaps I wanted to have a "nice light crimp" and accidentally made "a grotesquely heavy crimp." Could doing that actually mess up how well the bullet stays in position in the case?

Here's two photos of my dud if it helps.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1913/img6547800x600.jpg

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/7429/img6545800x600.jpg


And as best I can measure, that struck primer is dead flush with the case head. Not a few thou under, but not protruding either.

[MikeyPooh]

Yeah HeavyMetal, I bought the gun used, the guy said it only had 250 rounds through it, and it did look brand new... he said he didn't like the grip angle, a common enough complaint, but I was wondering the same thing, if there was another reason he was selling. I was actually planning on ordering up some springs anyway to try and improve the trigger, I guess I'll begin by replacing the stock weight stuff first till I get this figured out for sure.

[HeavyMetal]

saw your picture and see a problem!

If you can see a taper crimp it is way to much! I can see the crimp in the picture.

The measurement I was refering to was case length not diameter. If case's vary in length so will the crimp! same head stamp same length plus or minus .002 this mean trim and sort.

I've loadded the 9 for more years than I want to admit and Ken Waters 9mm update in handloader mag was the best bit of infomation ever printed for guy reloading the 9 get a copy and fast! See Kens book on favorite loads it's in there

[MikeyPooh]

lol ok glad the pic helped

I'll try to find a copy of the Ken Waters pamphlet... and thanks to everyone for all the input, I really appreciate it.

[MikeyPooh]

*SIGH*

Need more advice guys. I really thought we had it figured out - just me being stupid with the crimp. So last night I took a fresh batch of range pick up brass, sorted out all the Federal cases to use as a test batch, cleaned them, took my Lee trimmer and trimmed them all to .746"

I just tried loading up 17 rounds (enough to fill one mag)

The first round was perfect, I pressed the nose of the bullet firmly into the bench (I read this somewhere as a way to test to make sure the bullet has enough tension on it) and it didn't even budge a thousandth. Perfect.

The second bullet sunk into the case, only stopping when it ran into the powder. Same with the 3d. When it was all said and done, I had 11 cartridges that held the bullet properly and 6 that let it sink. I was loading to about 1.105" - the ones that sunk went down to about 1.04"

I'm at a loss. Anyone have any ideas?

[seagiant]

Hi,
Interesting! I have NEVER trimed auto pistol brass! You need to invest in a Wilson case guage so you can check your brass and loaded rounds at the bench. Good for both and gives you a line in the sand to maintain and meet!

I always taper crimp as a seperate operation. Running some factory ammo is a good idea as it lets you know once and for all where the problem lies. I have never had any real problems with APC reloads after taper crimping and using a guage to keep me straight! Just a thought!

[MikeyPooh]

Ok to be clear, this time around I used NO crimp at all.

And yeah, last night I was cruising around some other forums and found that trimming straight wall handgun brass is not usually done. I saw it recommended here and it sounded like a good thing to do in my case, to eliminate one variable anyway. I'll have to look into those gauges you mentioned, thanks.


Edit: Well I just resized the cases that allowed the bullet to slip, and seated some different bullets I had. They all slipped down easier than the first time around.

[oldandslow]

mp, 7/22/12

So you're having the trials and tribulations that many of us have had when first learning to reload. Do not give up or get too frustrated, it'll work out and then you'll have years of satisfaction in reloading your own ammo.

Regarding trimming straight-walled pistol cartridges- I'm with Seagiant in that I haven't trimmed any of the 90,000 pistol cases I've reloaded in the past seven years (9mm, 45acp, 38sp, 357mag, 44sp).

And most autopistol ammo needs a taper crimp to prevent setback of the bullet (as you have found out).

I still think the basic problems are high-primers. You showed one pic. of a failure-to-fire case and mentioned that the primer seating looked OK. With a high primer you need to check the seating BEFORE firing. After the hammer has struck the primer it will usually drive the primer to its full seating depth and then it will fire with the next trigger pull.

good luck- oldandslow

[DCM]

OK lets try going a different direction.
How many rds. on the G17?
How does the tip of the striker look? Pics please.
Have you ever cleaned the striker, spring and its' liner?
Changed any springs?
Pics of ones that did go off?

That striker hit looks awful weak for a Glock which is why I ask all of the above.

And +1 on the taper crimp for autoloaders that headspace on the case mouth.

[seagiant]

Hi,
I guess this sort of goes along in the direction DCM is going....I have a Ruger Blackhawk SA in 41 mag that used to drive me crazy because about every third round it would not ignite the primer! I have been reloading so long that I knew it was the pistol and not the ammo.

After checking hammer,springs,transfer bars,ect.,ect, it was in the end a good bur on the inside wall of the striker hole. It was enough to slow the striker just enough to prevent ignition every now and then. I debured it and have never had a problem since but almost was ready to ship it to Ruger while I still had some hair left!

[MikeyPooh]

So you're having the trials and tribulations that many of us have had when first learning to reload. Do not give up or get too frustrated, it'll work out and then you'll have years of satisfaction in reloading your own ammo.

good luck- oldandslow

Heh, thanks for your wishes - yes it's a bit frustrating, but, I should have known better to start learning auto loader rounds with the 9mm, lol. The .41 Mag was a piece of cake really, figured I was ready. I was wrong, lol. Not the first time and won't be the last, but I will not give up, that's for sure :)


Ok I bought the gun used, the guy said he put 250 rounds through it and the transferring dealer asked him if the gun was brand new, so I believe that is a reasonable estimate for when I got it. I put 100 WWB through it, and then my handloads - just under 300 (I ruined a few bullets mucking about with the crimp).
So call it 650ish. As far as I know the gun is totally stock.

Two successfully fired rounds:
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/7973/img6552800x600.jpg

The best I could get of the striker:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6900/img6556800x600.jpg

[MikeyPooh]

lol Seagiant, I too have a .41 Mag Blackhawk... in case my last post confuses you, lol. Interesting on the burr. So, I guess next I will learn how to detail strip the piece, lol. That's fine, I wanted to anyway.

[jimkim]

Once you load the rounds do you drop them into your chamber or case gauge to see if they fit properly?

When you pulled the slide back after the misfire, did it feel like it was stuck? If it did, it may not have been in full battery.

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/dimples.html

Measure the diameter of a few sized cases, just to make sure you're sizing the brass. If you have a mislabeled sizing die that would be a big part of the problem.

IDK if this will help but, this is pretty much how I set up a seating/crimping die.

Adjust the seating stem all the way out. Place an empty case in the shellholder. Bring the ram all the way up. Turn the crimping die in until it makes contact. Now, turn it back out one full turn. With the die body locked in this position, adjust the seating stem so as to seat a bullet to the correct depth. Screw the seating stem out away from the bullet. Unlock the die and adjust the die body in until it just kisses the rim(one full turn) and removes the bell. Turn the seating stem in until it contacts the seated bullet.
Lock the die and stem down.

Bell an empty sized case and seat a bullet with it adjusted like that. If that removed the bell, lightly crimped the round, and the OAL is correct, check the dummy round in your case-gauge or barrel. Adjusting the crimping die in more than 1/8 turn past where it contacts the case shouldn't be necessary. A light crimp should be all you need. By making very small adjustments you can tweek the die until you're producing quality ammo. The trick is to have it crimp just as the bullet is seated to the correct length. This has been a BBC world broadcast.

[HeavyMetal]

Primer mark doesn't look like a glock! Glock leaves a square mark with a little smear.

Check firing pin to see if it's been "molested"!

This does not explain the issue with boolit pull and I woll suggest a new sizing die, by the way I never did see you mention if your die set was steel or carbide?

This can mean a worn out or mis marked die post a picture of the dies and the box they came in lots can be learned from markings on the dies.

[seagiant]

Hi,
If I missed something somewhere let me know,but the first thing he has to do is get some factory rounds and see how the pistol fires those. If it works with factory rounds then he can concentrate on the reloads!

This is not really rocket science! Just have to follow some rules to stay safe and the rest should be fun!

[UNIQUEDOT]

Glock leaves a square mark with a little smear.

Not if the round doesn't fire. May just be the way I'm looking at the pictures, but to me the primers do not look like they have been seated enough to set the anvil, but i guess the indent could be making it appear so.

[oldandslow]

mp, 7/23/12

I'm with some of the other posters who believe that those primer strikes don't look normal for a stock Glock. Either the primers aren't seated all the way or your striker/main -spring has issues. One way to tell is to put a factory fired case next to one of your reloads and see if the primer indentations are similar (use a non-CCI Speer factory round as the CCI primers can be harder than others from Federal, Remington, Winchester, etc). If the indentations are simlar (both light) then it may be a mainspring problem, if there are light hits on your reloads and normal ones on the factory ammo then it is still a primer problem. Keep on trying and it'll get sorted out.

best wishes- oldandslow

[MikeyPooh]

Once you load the rounds do you drop them into your chamber or case gauge to see if they fit properly?

When you pulled the slide back after the misfire, did it feel like it was stuck? If it did, it may not have been in full battery.


Measure the diameter of a few sized cases, just to make sure you're sizing the brass. If you have a mislabeled sizing die that would be a big part of the problem.


1) Yes 2) I don't remember 3) I've done this already and am definitely resizing the brass.

Thanks for the detailed instructions on setting up the seater.


HeavyMetal - yeah I will be detail stripping the gun soon and going over it with a fine toothed comb. Sorry - yes, it is a carbide die, just the standard Lee 3 die set that comes in the cylindrical container. The sizing die is marked "Lee 9mm - 7"

Everyone keeps coming back to my primer seating ability and I will make damn sure I do a good, consistent job but I really don't think that's it.

Thanks for all the input and wishes, you all have given me plenty to go on for now, heh. :)

[FergusonTO35]

I was gettign the same problem with my Ruger SR9c awhile back. Turns out I had a batch of really hard Remington primers.

[DCM]

Hard primers should not be a problem for a Glock.
I have had issues blowing holes in soft primers with medium loads with a Glock on the other hand.
The primer strike on the fired rounds should look more like the one on the left than the one on the right, but usually a deeper impression.

If there is a GSSF in your area you can have a certified Glock armorer look at the pistol for free at the match.

[MikeyPooh]

I was gettign the same problem with my Ruger SR9c awhile back. Turns out I had a batch of really hard Remington primers.

The lot number on mine is 827 - what was your lot number?


Hard primers should not be a problem for a Glock.
I have had issues blowing holes in soft primers with medium loads with a Glock on the other hand.
The primer strike on the fired rounds should look more like the one on the left than the one on the right, but usually a deeper impression.

If there is a GSSF in your area you can have a certified Glock armorer look at the pistol for free at the match.

I don't know about a GSSF ... I like figuring things out for myself heh... even if it drives me nuts...

I think I may just have terrible luck with primers - after all of this - earlier in the week I went shooting with my handloads - my first 17 rounds all performed perfectly, and at 10 yards the group was much more consistent, so I do think my original funky/heavy crimp was affecting things negatively. Then I loaded up a dozen rounds of my very first cast boolits. I was filled with confidence. The very first round failed to fire. I rechambered it, and on the second hit, it failed to fire again. I haven't pulled this round down yet, but I'm going to, and look at the primer and see what I can see. After that one, the rest fired just fine.

After this outing, I learned to detail strip the gun. I did the 25 cent trigger job, and cleaned out the striker channel with Q-tips. It's hard to see down there, but there weren't any burrs big enough to pull cotton off the Q-tip. I did get some brass shavings out of there though. After this, I went shooting yesterday, and again fired off 17 rounds of jacketed ammo perfectly fine. Then I switched to cast, and again at one point I did have a failure. This one did pop on the second hit. Now you mention that the primer strikes should look more like the one on the left, and after the thorough cleaning, the struck primers look consistent and uniform, and like the one on the left, but with a stronger impression of that rectangular indentation.

So my next steps will be to replace the springs with Wolff springs, and try a new batch of primers. If I'm still getting the issue I give up, lol. Or it's time to find an armorer.

[DCM]

Springs may help but I am starting to think someone may have monkeyed with the firing pin.

[FergusonTO35]

You may also want to prime some empty cases and fire them to see what kind of primer strike you're getting without interferrence from chamber pressure and ejection.