Dirty 1911!

[Michael J. Spangler]

ok guys i'm getting some serious nasty build up after a range trip. The lube and soot makes a nice greasy mess that builds up in nooks an crannies. It's not causing function issues (after 200 or so rounds) its just a mess. I was wondering if i change lubes it might help out? or run a hotter load

S&W 1911
mixed brass
200 grain MP RNHP
Carnuba Red
4.5 grains W231
1.190 overall

any suggestions? is it the load? the lube? would a softer lube be even worse? thanks guys!!

[btroj]

A softer lube might well be worse. All that greasy residue is going to end up in your slide and on the breech face.
I just cleaned my 1911. It had been fired over 800 rounds without a cleaning. I had not used more oil on it since it was last cleaned. Ran like a champ. Looked like hell.

My take is to keep using what works. Ignore how the gun looks, focus on how it shoots.

[ku4hx]

Unfortunately, for every advantage there are disadvantages. The situation with cast and lubricated boolits is they are often "dirtier" than jacketed ... and they likely always will be. That's just their nature. With the exception of my bolt gun, this is true for every cast boolit load I shoot.

For me, a somewhat messier gun is a cheap price to pay. My wife often says the only reason I shoot is so I can clean guns and drink beer. That's not strictly true, but she does have a point.

[Michael J. Spangler]

i don't really mind the cleaning. it's one of my favorite parts of shooting i think.
i guess i just need to run her non stop until i start to have malfunctions. then i'll know how many rounds i can run before it gets ugly. i always clean my guns when i get home so it's not really a big deal.

i have some boolits lubed with javalena and some with BAC that i'll have to run through to see if its worse.

it was sweet to see the berm littered with boolits that still had a ton of carnuba red still in the groove. that stuff sure holds on huh?

[Iron Mike Golf]

I have shot a lot of 452460 through my Colt Series 80 GM. My load was 4.0 gr and 5.0 gr Bullseye and lubed with Carnauba Red. I went 600 rds with out cleaning and at that point I had no leading and the slide started getting sticky, causine malfunctions with the 4.0 gr load.

Since then, I have switched to 5.7 gr American Select and the amount of residue decreased a lot. I've not done a torture test,

[Char-Gar]

Clean your pistol and wash your hands. Problem with go away.

[geargnasher]

Use a softer lube and something other than that filthy, nasty Winchester powder and your problem will go away. I recommend Red Dot or Universal. Clays and BE are nice too if you can work with a powder that fast.

Gear

[btroj]

I am using Clays. Lube is MML these days. It is sort of messy but I don't really notice. It isn't messy enough to get my hands dirty.
The stuff wipes out quickly. I find that cleaning my 1911 is only a 15 minute deal anyway.

[trixter]

OK, now that I have decided to clean my XDM 45, what should I use to spray it out? Non chlorinated brake cleaner?

[runfiverun]

i would try a slower powder.
i just don't see carnuba red blowing lube into the gun unless pressure is peaking right quick.
i have seen a bit more taper crimp sometimes help this issue.

[nwellons]

I really like to clean my 1911. And it needs it too, after each trip.

[Moonie]

OK, now that I have decided to clean my XDM 45, what should I use to spray it out? Non chlorinated brake cleaner?

Eds Red then chlorinated brake cleaner then lube, done. My lube is 2 parts synthetic ATF 1 part synthetic motor oil, 1 part stp oil treatment, or just straight synthetic ATF.

[Char-Gar]

You don't spray it out with anything. Field stip the pistol and use a good powder solvent (Hoppe's, Ed's Red or whatever) on patches and Q-tips to clean the frame and slide. Relube, reassemble and you are good to go.

The spray cleaners including carb and brake cleaners are very toxic and go all kind of places you don't want them. They also remove lube and other good stuff you want in your pistol.

Do it the old fashioned way and clean that barrel out good while you are at it.

I don't care what people tell you, a dirty weapon and a weapon that is not properly lubricated can cost you your life. If does no harm to the weaon to clean it, if done properly.

Removing powder and/or lube fouling and lubricating is just part of shooting a pistol. Resign yourself to this fact of life. I have a friend, who does not believe in cleaning weapons of any kind. He also runs a gun range and rents guns. I have seen him pull out a spray can of Break-Free, open the breech and spray the dickens out of a gun, just to get it to fire. I cringe when I see this and can't force myself to pick up one of his guns. This is just gun abuse in my book. Many of them also are covered with rust flakes.

[snuffy]

S&W 1911
mixed brass
200 grain MP RNHP
Carnuba Red
4.5 grains W231
1.190 overall

I run 5.3 to 5.5 W231 with that boolit. You could go higher for +P loads. That should clean up your load quite a bit. I bet a lot of what you're seeing is unburned powder residue.

Gear,
that filthy, nasty Winchester powder ? Yeah, any powder not loaded to it's proper working pressure is going to be dirty. But Winchester is dirtier? Not that I have noticed. WW-231 is my go=to powder for most of my handgun loadings.

[gandydancer]

you clean guns???? what will they think of next???? :kidding::kidding:

[44man]

The very best cleaner I have found is Butch's Bore shine. It does stink but the stuff removes EVERYTHING.

[MtGun44]

Back in the day, I was extremely careful about cleaning my competition 1911s. I did a
good cleanup every 5 thousand rounds, whether it needed it our not. Each match, it got
a couple of drops of Break Free in critical locations and that was it. I wound up cleaning
the gun 2-4 times per year in the 80s and 90s.

A bit of gunk is not going to hurt a thing with a decent 1911 and good Major Caliber
loads.

Bill

[Michael J. Spangler]

Sweet good info here. I was wondering I the under powder loads would add to the residue holding in there. I'll try to up the load. I don't want to put much more of a crimp and chance under sizing the boolit
I'll try a different powder too. When the 231 is gone I was thinking of trying something like Clays.
I do like cleaning my gun and it's a must because it's my go to house gun I just wondered why it was happening and what the variables might be. Thanks guys!

[mpmarty]

200 grain 452460 tumble lubed with 50/50 jpw/lla and five grains of Red Dot. No dirt, no problems. I clean after each session, eventually as I don't put them back in the safe until they are clean.

[ghh3rd]

it was sweet to see the berm littered with boolits that still had a ton of carnuba red still in the groove. that stuff sure holds on huh?

I've often wondered what effect lube that only partially flies from the grooves does to accuracy. I would think that the extreme spinning action of a boolit would throw all lube from the grooves as soon as the boolit left the barrel. At least I hope that's what's happening to my Felix Lube.

[BruceB]

Back in the day, I was extremely careful about cleaning my competition 1911s. I did a
good cleanup every 5 thousand rounds, whether it needed it our not. Bill

Boy howdy.....different strokes for sure!

Years ago, my wife and I shot NRA Bullseye and ISU (International Shooting Union) matches intensively.

There was a saying in our gang: "He who shooteth a dirty gun deserveth his alibi." An "alibi" in Bullseye ia simply a malfunction which MAY allow the shooter to re-fire the string. This adds unnecessary stress to the proceeding, and it also may lead to NOT being allowed a re-fire....which can add up to as many as fifty lost points....essentially a lost match.

The guns were cleaned to a surgical standard before any match, and then "fouled" with five rounds just before the match. This was to ensure that traces of oil etc would not affect the first rounds fired in the competition.

1911s and S&W 52s, as well as a variety of .22.match pistols, came to zero harm from this regimen. There are amply-sufficient UN-controllable variables in the world; we chose to control the ones which we could control.

The 52s worked perfectly up to around 250-300 rounds, after which they became increasingly sluggish. Since a match only involved 90 rounds plus (God forbid) alibis, this reliability was just fine.

As far as my CCW guns go, they are ALWAYS totally clean before I carry them. I don't care HOW reliable they've proven to be; they are CLEAN before they're holstered for defensive carry. To do otherwise is simply foolish in my book.

[fredj338]

I find W231 quite sooty, especially @ the low end. That round is barely making 700fps, very low pressure, lots of carbon to mix w/ the bullet lube. Either pop the charge wt up or switch to somethin like WST. I run 200gr cast o/ 4.8gr of wST for my IDPA load, makes 840fps. I can drop to 4.3gr for 740fps as a minor load & shoot 500-600 before even think about cleaning it. I use CR for lube or mess w/ some home made stuff using BW & 2st oil.

[fredj338]

Use a softer lube and something other than that filthy, nasty Winchester powder and your problem will go away. I recommend Red Dot or Universal. Clays and BE are nice too if you can work with a powder that fast.

Gear
Come on Gear, BE is got to be one of the cruddiest powders still made. I don't think they changed formuals since it's debut in the 1800s, filthy stuff.

[geargnasher]

I run 5.3 to 5.5 W231 with that boolit. You could go higher for +P loads. That should clean up your load quite a bit. I bet a lot of what you're seeing is unburned powder residue.

Gear, ? Yeah, any powder not loaded to it's proper working pressure is going to be dirty. But Winchester is dirtier? Not that I have noticed. WW-231 is my go=to powder for most of my handgun loadings.

Agreed on the pressure loadings, but the deterrent coating on some powders are worse than others even at optimal burn pressure. WW 231 is a favorite of mine, too, but even loaded to burn cleanly it puts a graphite haze in the actions of my 1911s that the other powders I listed don't, even if loaded down a bit. If I shoot 231 I have to disassemble and clean my magazines, too, or they get gunked up and start malfunctioning in pretty short order.

Gear

[felix]

It seems new lots of the old standby powders are being made slightly different by using different/additional components. Maybe one can of "X" will be cleaner burning, or burns cooler for the same applications, than the same can of an earlier lot. ... felix

[garym1a2]

WST is the bomb for 45acp and S&W40.

[Grandpas50AE]

ok guys i'm getting some serious nasty build up after a range trip. The lube and soot makes a nice greasy mess that builds up in nooks an crannies. It's not causing function issues (after 200 or so rounds) its just a mess. I was wondering if i change lubes it might help out? or run a hotter load

S&W 1911
mixed brass
200 grain MP RNHP
Carnuba Red
4.5 grains W231
1.190 overall

any suggestions? is it the load? the lube? would a softer lube be even worse? thanks guys!!

I have loaded that same load (using 5.4 gr. W231) with all other components in my load the same, and W231 shoots much dirtier than my SR4756 loads at the same level. W231 also makes the casings hotter to touch for a little longer time than the SR4756. Only drawback to SR4756 is it is not quite as economical. My absolute basic load for that boolit (and I am using BAC lube now after switching from Javelina 50/50) is WLP primers with 6.7 gr. SR4756 in mixed brass. Boolit is the MP 200 gr. RNHP sized at .4515 and loaded same overall length.

[Char-Gar]

Bruce..Like you I shot Bullseye back in the day. Everybody I knew made a religion of cleaning their pistols after every match and practice round. We of course fired a few fouling shots before shooting for score.

I simply do not understand this recent aversion to cleaning guns, and the concomitant search for clean powder and lube that does not foul the pistol. I am truly bewildered by this.

[btroj]

I don't have an aversion. I just didn't clean the gun after the last few times I shout. A dirty gun for general range duty doesn't bother me.
I don't hunt with a dirty gun nor did I ever compete in a highpower match with one. I want them to go bang when it counts.

I do agree entirely with Char-Gar about proper cleaning. It takes a little time, some patches, and solvent. I would never just spray something thru the action and barrel and call it clean. A stripped down gun also allows you to see if wear or broken parts are an issue and allows for proper lubrication.

[Michael J. Spangler]

nothing like using brake cleaner to wash all the grime down hill in to the internals.

i like cleaning after the range trips. its kind of like a cool down, a nice relaxing chill time.

[Grandpas50AE]

Mine get cleaned every trip to the range since I mostly shoot my two carry guns. I have no aversion to cleaning them. I use what gives the best results for me, and so far that happens to be (at least in the .45 ACP) the SR4756 and Power Pistol. Their propensity to burn cleaner than the Winchester powder is a nice sid benefit, but I use them for their other attributes that are much higher on my priority list: meter extremely well through the Dillon powder measure, have enough bulk to preclude seating a boolit on a double charge without deforming the boolit, exhibit lower thermal profile, are very consistent for mid-range loads (there are probably better powders for the +P stuff), are extremely consistent year-to-year and canister-lot to canister-lot for the load map, give very consistent ignition profile as far as chronograph and target can tell, and probably a few other points. These are just my personal priorities, and not everyone has the same priorities. It is just a nice side-benefit that these two are "cleaner burning".

[MtGun44]

Bruce,

No alibis in IPSC, the guns worked near 100%, zero malfunctions was the norm. I'll bet I had around
1-2 jams per year when shooting 11 matches every month plus lots of practice sessions,
usually a cracked magazine. In my peak years I shot 15,000-20,000 rounds per year.
Lube and shoot. Clean every 3 months or 5000 rds. Worked for me for 30+ yrs of competition.
Always an A class shooter until the last 5-6 yrs as I got old, slow and lazy and didn't practice
anymore. Still can run a solid upper B class most nights at 61. I did always clean the gun
before the National Championships.

The only 'dirty gun' issues ever were from a hard crud that would build up in the chamber with
a .38 Super. It needed scrubbing the chamber every 300 rds until I switched powders. Then
back to the same 3 month/5000 rds schedule.

The guns are cleaned a lot more often today, but I am absolutely certain that my multiple Gold
Cups, a Kimber Custom and Wilson LE Comp guns (.38 Super and .45 ACP) will run for at least
5000 rds of my handloads with only a periodic drop or two of Break Free.
Carry guns are usually cleaned after every practice session, but sometimes there is no time.

Bill

[40Super]

Grandpas50ae have you tried SR7625? It's a little faster than Sr4756 but works great also with cast bullets. I use the sr4756 in my (cough) XTP and JHP higher power loads(where it burns the nicest)
My competition load is 5.3gr HP-38 over a 200gr-swc,(4.6 gr has to barely cycle the gun) It does leave soot all over the gun after 100rds though, but is great for accuracy so it's worth the cleaning.

[Moonie]

nothing like using brake cleaner to wash all the grime down hill in to the internals.

Your doing it wrong.

[geargnasher]

Bill and I agree as happens more often than not. If your load is built correctly, the gun shouldn't be so gunked up as to start having problems in as little as 3-500 rounds. Some loads will foul an autoloader in as few as 50, some combinations will foul the chamber in as few as five rounds so it won't go into battery. A proper cast boolit load won't do this.

Lots of people got derailed on the whole "clean your guns" thing. I don't think that's the point here, clean and lubricate your gun as often as you like, but it SHOULD be able to stand being shot a whole bunch before any care is necessary, that's a sign of a good load.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

The point, as least as far as I can determine, is that an autopistol should be cleaned BEFORE it becomes necessary.

I feel certain I could run my pistol and cast bullet loads for several thousand round before it malfunctioned, but why? Cleaning your weapon is a discipline, like brushing your teeth and washing your body. Why put off those activities until nobody can stand to be around you?

Keep your pistol clean and it will work everytime, all the time and give you the best accuracy it can. Can anybody give me a reason not to keep the weapon clean, other than just pure sloth? Does shooting it dirty give you better function, better accuracy or better service life? I think not!

[plainsman456]

Now we got to take baths and showers regularly?(I just thought that was funny)
My Colt gets cleaned when it starts getting nasty,i shoot unique and a few of their other powders with cast.

[grrifles]

I use WST with a 200 SWC and a 230 hollow point cast bollit. Very clean and very accurate.



Chris

[Michael J. Spangler]

exactly gear,

we should all clean our guns regularly. i was more or less wondering if this is normal and something i can control?

i'll up the charge and see how it goes

[geargnasher]

You won't be able to avoid a little lube haze from shooting cast boolits unless you use liquid Alox or shoot coated boolits, but it shouldn't gunk up everything to the point of causing any function issues with he gun for a very, very many shots. The greasy feel of boolit lube condensing on the moving parts only serves to help lubricate the slide, barrel locking lugs, barrel bushing, and magazine follower. Get the pressure up to where the powder will burn as cleanly as it can and that will help. A switch to Bullesye or Clays will help even more.

Gear

[btroj]

I am guilty of sloth at times.. My guns don't seem to Mind much.

[MikeS]

I experienced first hand today the effects of a dirty gun. But it wasn't a gun where I could easily change the load, it was my Ruger mkII .22 that got gunked up to the point that the trigger wasn't working right. I was at the range sighting in a new red dot sight for a match this Sunday, and I got it shooting right on with the help of a forum member, so now I need to pull it apart, and clean it out good.

[Grandpas50AE]

Grandpas50ae have you tried SR7625? It's a little faster than Sr4756 but works great also with cast bullets. I use the sr4756 in my (cough) XTP and JHP higher power loads(where it burns the nicest)
My competition load is 5.3gr HP-38 over a 200gr-swc,(4.6 gr has to barely cycle the gun) It does leave soot all over the gun after 100rds though, but is great for accuracy so it's worth the cleaning.

I may try that when I use up some of the powder I already have. What I like about the 4756 loads is that I can shoot 100 or 500 or 700 and it doesn't get any cruddier than it was at 100, and it only takes 3 - 4 patches for the barrel to be completely clean. My Super Carry pro has never seen a J-word through it yet ( have over 1000 rounds through it in 4 months), and the bore is a polished mirror from the BAC lube. What load are you using for the SR7625 on a 200 gr. boolit?

[fcvan]

Springfield Armory 1911-A1, Lee 452-230 RN, Javelina (50-50 Alox/Bees wax) 6 grains of Unique. My typical range day was 500 rounds 2-3 times a week for years. Cleanup at the end of each range session was Shooter's Choice for the bore, stiff toothbrush for the slide and frame, good wipe down with a rag, a few drops of Rem Oil on the necessary parts.

Once, I went 2000 rounds without cleaning - one long range session. No failures to feed or fire, but she was a might dirty. It was like it got to a certain amount of crud and then blew the excess crud out at a certain point. I don't think I would have had the same results with carnuba red or any other harder lube. I'm currently giving Lars BAC a good try and I am happy with the performance. Frank

[captaint]

I guess I have just been in the habit of shooting, then cleaning when I get home. Any time I take one of the auto pistols out, I shoot 200 rounds thru them. So, they're always dirty enough to clean, regardless of powder used. The only gun I don't do that with is the S&W 41. Our informal target sessions are 100 rounds. I just wipe it off good and clean it every 5-600. No bronze brushes through that one. enjoy Mike

[randyrat]

I may try that when I use up some of the powder I already have. What I like about the 4756 loads is that I can shoot 100 or 500 or 700 and it doesn't get any cruddier than it was at 100, and it only takes 3 - 4 patches for the barrel to be completely clean. My Super Carry pro has never seen a J-word through it yet ( have over 1000 rounds through it in 4 months), and the bore is a polished mirror from the BAC lube. What load are you using for the SR7625 on a 200 gr. boolit?

SR 4756= VERY nice stuff

[Michael J. Spangler]

i shot a ton with bullseye but again the light loads were sooty.

i'm thinking of trying some clays.

i want to try out some universal clays for heavy boolits in the 625 also

[40Super]

Grampas50AE, I'm using 6.4gr of sr 7625 under 200grswc. Real consistantly good in all my handgun calibers.

Another group of powders that is garanteed to keep soot down is the Vihtavuori n310,n320,n330,n340,and 3n37. They are always super clean but rather costly.

[BD]

In the same camp as Bill and Gear. My fun and games load is the H&G 68 lubed with FL over 4.5 grains of HPC-18, ("surplus 231"). It's very dirty, and plenty smokey! Since I moved back to Maine I'm shooting 300 to 400 rounds a week and cleaning once a month before the Big Pine match. No function issues at all. Mainly I'm cleaning it to look for potential mechanical problems as that gun is coming up on 80,000 rounds. I put a couple drops of lube where needed every other week or so. If I clear a loaded round and it looks like life in a coal mine I'll pull a bore snake through from the magwell. So far, every time my slide has started to drag a bit it's been the shock buff getting ragged.

In my experience, far more guns have been buggered by excessive cleaning than by excessive shooting.

Before I got this last bunch of surplus, I had run through 16 lbs of TiteGroup. It was much cleaner, but you still get the lube gunk build up.

A related story: My father has a 1911 that my great grandfather brought home from the army during WWI a piece at a time. It was never shot that much, maybe 100 rounds of jacketed ball a year, (plus a dozen rounds or so total at critical moments over the years according to family lore), but as far as we know it hadn't been cleaned since the 1920's. I always felt that gun shot amazing well for what it was. 2-3" @ 25 yards all day long. And that's with the tiny little issue sights. So, one day my younger brother decides to detail strip it and give it a real good cleaning. Groups opened up to 8" or so! A little crud can go a long way!
BD
BD

[MtGun44]

Mike,

My Ruger Std autos are MUCH less forgiving of lack of cleaning. Lead boolit (bare, wax
lubed) .22 LR is really dirty stuff! I'd estimate that I can only get about 200-300 rds before
the gun starts malfunctioning. Of course the recoil spring is about like a long ball point
pen spring, so not a lot of excess force to deal with crud.

In my considerable experience, a 1911 will run a really long time between cleanings
with a decent load and a couple of drops of lube every so often. I expect most military
pistols would be similar, but I have nowhere near the round count on my other military
pistols, and they typically are cleaned every few hundred rounds.

Char-gar - "I can run for several thousand rounds, but why?" Because I was shooting 300-400
rounds in practice on Wed and again on Saturday, and shooting a 75-100 round 2 stage match every
Friday night, and a 200+ rd 4-stage match at least twice a month, plus a few odd practice
sessions added, then a week at the National Championships, and the Area Three match,
and the Kansas State Championships, and match dir on a stage and running the chrono on the IPSC
Indoor Championship Match (a 200+ shooter national level match we ran here for about 15 yrs). I was
getting those "several thousand rounds" in a few weeks and with the ammo making time (loading ~200
rounds an hour until I got the Dillon 550 meant that I had to find at least 10 hours of loading time in
those two weeks, plus tumbling brass, etc) and I was building a Long EZ homebuilt at the time, too.
Cleaning the gun just didn't HAVE to be done more often, so it wasn't. And that was in my spare time. :bigsmyl2:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=2650
Bill

[35remington]

Oh, cool plane, MgGun.

What's it use for a motor?

[MtGun44]

Lycoming O-235, 108 hp 4 cylinder air cooled aircraft engine, in the rear. Cruises
at 170 mph, 1000+ mile range.

Bill

[Echo]

Back in the day I cleaned my match guns at the end of the season. We were shooting commercial ammo, not cast, and the jacketed stuff just didn't dirty up the guns. When I retired, I started using cast, and rapidly found out that cleaning was a constant necessity. My cleaning method was simple - jack the slide back and set the .45 upside down in an ammo can filled with mineral spirits, and leave it, for a couple hours up to a day. Pull it out, shake it dry, wipe down, run a brush through the bbl, wipe any observable gunk off, shoot with WD40, wipe again, and put away. No drama...