Chronographs (NEED ADVICE)

[ez4545]

I would like to buy a chronograph in the next few days. I don't know the first thing about them but I think the time has come as I'm ready to start using surplus powders. I know the measure of speed won't let me know if I'm heading towards a too much pressure fiasco. What I am looking to do is develop loads that won't beat up my arthritis too much. I have never looked to develop the fastest load. I want to reduce recoil and chase accuracy.

I have never used a chronograph before or really discussed them with anyone that has.

I see there are several manufacturers out there and I don't have any ill feelings toward any of them, so I'm open to all opinions and recommendations.

I appreciate you taking the time to advise me on this purchase!

Bill

[leftiye]

EZ, I have an old oehler- the first and lowest priced model that has sky screens. It is kinda ungainly to use, special stands to set up (that I built). The new ones like the chrony are all in one piece. The down side to this is that people shoot them (bye bye chronometer) instead of just getting a screen. Rcbs has one where the "works" detaches from the sky screen component- some better.

To be honest, the only real advantages to accuracy for you would be to be able to get a standard deviation of shots fired. Lets you know if things are consistent. And it is nice to actually know how fast a boolit was going (though not really necessary).

All you really need to get milder accurate loads is research to find the loads, and targets to tell you if they shoot straight. A third thing necessary is a micrometer, and knowledge of how to assess pressures.

[Shiloh]

You get what you pay for.

I have a Chrony Beta, the Blue colored one. It records, and yu can retrieve shots and delete shots ect. I can be upgraded. It works fine for my purposes.

I think that the Pact one is a little better but don't know the particulars. Like you, I use surplus powders I strive for accuracy, and shoot for my own enjoyment. My 50 year old eyes don't see near what they used to even 5 years ago.

Shiloh:castmine:

[shooting on a shoestring]

Several years ago I bought an Oehler 35P. I bought it retail in an Austin gun shop, paid just under $400. I love it. I should have gotten one years ago. The Oehler uses 3 screens instead of two as most others do. This allows the Oehler to have a proof channel. It measures velocity between the 1st and middle screens and between the 1st and last screen. Then it checks to see if the two velocities match. If they don't, it flags the data. This is good b/c chronographs can be triggered by muzzle blast, stray radio waves and other weird stuff. I like that, it helps now and then.

Mine also has a printer. It prints on adding machine tape. Gives both velocities, the shot number for them, and I can press a summary button and it prints the fastest, slowest, spread between them, the average (mean), and standard deviation.

Before I start a string of shots, I write the load recipe I'm firing on the top of the tape, fire and record the string, print the results. Then after I've finished the session, I write up numbers in my notebooks. Its really great to have the numbers all captured on adding machine tape.

Also, the Oehler has the chronograph/printer unit sitting safely on the bench and wires running to the screens. I've shot one screen dead. Another fell victim to a wild shot from an adjacent lane. The screens cost $35 per boo boo. Thats much better than the units that have the chronograph itself in front of the muzzle. Then when they get shot (and they will) you have to replace the whole thing.

I've shot over Chrony's. Its a bit of a pain b/c there is no printer and the velocities are simply displayed via LCD on one end of the unit, ten feet in front of my muzzle. Not good with my eyes. The unit did record about 10 or 15 shots and then you could walk up to the unit, press the button and it would flash the velocities and the average. That was fine in a pasture, but at a range, that would mean calling a cease fire every time you finish a string. The Chrony costs a little under $100. Its better than nothing.

PACT makes some units with the screens separated from the chrono simular to the Oehler, but in the range of $200 to $300 I think.

I am really glad I ponied up the $400 for the Oehler. I consider I've derived more enjoyment and education from it than if I had bought another gun. I see it mainly as a reloading tool. I track changes in velocity with changes in powder weight, looking for the curve of deminshing returns. Also for revolver/pistol rounds, the difference between muzzle up or down before firing (powder position in the case), I want uniformity for all my carry loads. Bullet shapes, weights, temperature...so much to measure, so little time, so much fun!!!

[Ross]

I went in to RCBS Wednesday to see the chronograph, as Huntington's had no clue when it would be available. It lists for $87.96 in their online catalog.
In the RCBS catalog it lists for $109.95, but no one I talked to there knew when it would be available.
Has anyone seen one?
Cheers from Darkest California,
Ross

[R.M.]

Well, I've never bought too expensive of one. Maybe the higher end ones are more bullet-proof. Really, I've only shot one, but that's enough. [smilie=1:

R.M.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have had one for years. I have the one with the printer etc that sits on the table next to you and the unit sits out in front of your gun. Be careful not to perforate it with boolits. I love it because it gives me a permanent record of how my reloads behaved this date. Weather and host of other factors can affect your POI. A chronograph will give you the velocity of your rounds. An average, mean velocity, deviations etc. The amount of powder, position of powder (if case is not full), crimp, case length and OAL can affect velocity. Of course accuracy is affected by more factors than can be measured by a chronograph. Shop around on the net. Ask shooters at the range to show you theirs. How it works. Good and bad points etc. Make some new friends but do not be in a rush to splurgh your bucks. 8-) Midway, Midsouth, Powder Valley, Natchez, Widners and other are in business for the long haul. I have been dealing with Midway for over 10 years and I spend between 1K and 3K a year there yearly. :drinks: I use them because of their seclection, price, customer service, price and fast shipping. I recently bought a Lee 6 banger in .45. I came apart during the 1st session. :( It warped and jammed up. I called and complained. They immediately sent a new one and they will pay for the shipping for the new one as well as the one I am sending back. :-D Another time I bought 500 once fired .45 ACP cases and about 20 came as WINCHESTER NT .45 ACP. THESE BABIES COME WITH SMALL PRIMER POCKETS AND JAMMED MY DILLON 550 FAST! :( With this order came one .50 cal ammo box (among 6) which was rusted pretty bad and had a broken hasp. The folks at Midway immediately apologized and sent me another 500 cases and a new .50 cal ammo can. [smilie=1: THEY DID NOT ASK FOR THE OLD ITEMS BAC! :drinks:

[BruceB]

My PACT Model One ( I believe that's its name) served me well for many years. It's now a full electronic "generation" behind the times. I still have it, but its working days are over unless I sell or trade it off.

My wimmenfolk gave me a CED "Millennium" chronograph (from Dillon's catalog) last year, and it is FAR easier to use than the PACT. The controls are super-ergonomic. the display is large, and you can even get it with infrared capability for after-dark use. The instrument will keep up to 200 rounds in memory, but I only need one string memorized at most. At $179 for the CED, it's a bargain.

It does NOT print results. That's no loss at all to me, because I dislike the idea of all the bits of paper needing processing. I just write the data from each string into my Loading Diary directly from the chronograph right after firing the rounds. This gives a bit of barrel-cooling time, as well as placing the information, in its final form, right where I can always refer to it. MY PACT has the infrared port to allow it to "talk" to a separate HP printer, but every time I thought about getting the printer, I seemed to have better uses for the $125.00.

Having had chrono "capability" since the early '70s, I'm in the habit of taking readings on almost everything I shoot. As far as I'm concerned, I can't have "too much" information about my handloads, and I really appreciate the ease of collecting the data with any decent chronograph. It wasn't always this way, believe me!!!

[imashooter2]

I use a Chrony F1 Master. It is a basic unit with the remote display, which is really required at my usual range where there can be long periods between cease fires. It does not do any internal calculations, but I have no problems jotting the speeds down in a little notebook and entering them into a spread sheet I made when I get home. Anyone interested in copy of the sheet is welcome to it. It handles strings from 2 to 20 shots and output is high, low, average, extreme spread, standard deviation, kinetic energy and power factor. Download it here:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/imashooter2/crnycalc.xls

Whatever you buy, always have a target behind the screens and always shoot off bags.

[Ricochet]

I just had to buy a brand new F1 Chrony to replace the second Alpha Chrony I've shot over the years. First two were factory refurbs I bought for $50 apiece. This one ran me $75. I"ll chalk it up to inflation, but this one's not a refurb. Chrony doesn't show thoose on their site any more; I ordered this one new from E. Arthur Brown.

Chronies have their limitations, but it works well enough to suit my purposes.

[mike in co]

My PACT Model One ( I believe that's its name) served me well for many years. It's now a full electronic "generation" behind the times. I still have it, but its working days are over unless I sell or trade it off.

My wimmenfolk gave me a CED "Millennium" chronograph (from Dillon's catalog) last year, and it is FAR easier to use than the PACT. The controls are super-ergonomic. the display is large, and you can even get it with infrared capability for after-dark use. The instrument will keep up to 200 rounds in memory, but I only need one string memorized at most. At $179 for the CED, it's a bargain.

It does NOT print results. That's no loss at all to me, because I dislike the idea of all the bits of paper needing processing. I just write the data from each string into my Loading Diary directly from the chronograph right after firing the rounds. This gives a bit of barrel-cooling time, as well as placing the information, in its final form, right where I can always refer to it. MY PACT has the infrared port to allow it to "talk" to a separate HP printer, but every time I thought about getting the printer, I seemed to have better uses for the $125.00.

Having had chrono "capability" since the early '70s, I'm in the habit of taking readings on almost everything I shoot. As far as I'm concerned, I can't have "too much" information about my handloads, and I really appreciate the ease of collecting the data with any decent chronograph. It wasn't always this way, believe me!!!

ohler is no longer available to the consumer...lab machines only.
i think that the ced "appears " to be the cream of the current crop.

[Beau Cassidy]

I had a Pact PC2 that was way better than I realized until it was stolen. My girlfriend got me an Oehler. What a piece of junk. It won't read my .22/250 rounds and has a really cheezy skyscreen bar setup. The control unit is not user friendly at all, either. I called Oehler about it not reading. I couldn't believe it when they told me to take a black magic marker and paint my bullets. And no- it did not work. I was given a Beta that works OK except for the telephone cord between the box and screen likes to come unplugged. It now goes with me as a backup. Over the past year I have bought a Pact Professional- It didn't work out of the box and required a trip back to Pact- grrrr. It still doesn't like to pick up anything. last fall I got a CED mellenium. So far it is good. I got the setup where you have some whizebang skyscreens that require an external power source but haven't used that part yet.

So- If i had to do it over again i would get the Pact PC2 because it was dang near bullet proof and very user friendly (very important to me) or another CED which is also reliable and user friendly.

[robertbank]

I have the F1 Chrony. Great little machine and does everything I want it for. Sometimes wish I had bought the upper scale Chrony and could upgrade the one I have. Just can't get around to doing it and as I sad the F1 really does all I want a Chrnograph to do.

Take Care

Bob

[fourarmed]

I had the first PACT model - the PC - and it finally quit seeing bullets. I called PACT. They said "Send it to us with five bucks." I did. In a few weeks they sent me a Model 1. I presume it was a refurb. It works fine. On an overcast day I attach the skyscreens to the 24" bar that came with the PC and go to work. On a sunny day, I use the diffuser box I built of scrap lumber. I took one of those flexible poly "cutting boards" and cut it in half. I used that to cover the windows I left in the top of the box above the sensors. I have yet to have it miss seeing a bullet.

Another thing I did that made my life much easier is to quit using a tripod to hold the skyscreens. Seemed like it took forever to get everything aligned, then I would bump it and have to start over. I had a crank-up hospital table collecting dust. I just set the bar on it and crank it to the height I want.

[David2011]

I bought a Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph, $5 more than the "Pal" model and it does everything I want. There's no remote control or printing but it will record 9 strings of up to 99 rounds each, calculates and displays the number of shots, max, min, avg, extreme spread and std deviation. It's easy to use, light in weight and just under $100.

[Black Prince]

Set your rifle on a sand bag and sight it on the target looking through the scope or iron sight, over the chronograph. Then open the action and look through the rifle barrel. If you see the Chronograph when you look throrgh the barrel, GUESS WHAT is going to happen if you shoot, even though you don't see the chronograph in the scope or in the iron sights? It's common sense and it'll save you embarrassment and $$MONEY when you set up that way. Line of sight is always above the line of bore and forgetting that little piece of information is what causes those bullets holes in chronographs. And now that a lot of people are using those huge front objectives on scopes and therefore the necessary high mounts used with them, the line of sight is much higher above the line of bore than what was usual before those big scopes hit the market. Shooting BPCR rifles with the high rear tang sight will get you into trouble the same way too. Using basic shooting knowledge of the relationship between line of sight and line of bore will help prevent any unexpected chronograph killings. But I always enjoy the cheers, applause, and recognition given the shooter when somebody on the firing line does it. We actually have a throphy where I shoot and the names of winners are added to it every time it happens. It's a throphy most of the winners do not show to their buddys when they visit our range.

[buck1]

EZ4545 10 years ago I bought my mine . A low priced Chrony. I have never hit it with anything other than a gascheck. Some buddies bought the high dollar ones. I could detect very very little differnce in them, except I still have mine and they have went through 2 or 3.
I keep mine in a padded gun case and do not shoot through it off hand.
If you treat it like a gun , and shoot through it from a bench at a target to keep the boolit in the same place every shot.. Anyone of them will give you what you want. IMHO.....Buck

[Dale53]

I have been responsible for our club chronograph for many, many years. The first one we bought was an Oehler 33. It was a good piece of equipment and was very reliable. The unit set on the bench next to the shooter and the "screens only" were down range. You could shoot all day without going down range. If a member screwed up and shot the screens it didn't cost much to replace.

When the Oehler 35 came out with it's separate printer, we upgraded. That has worked very well for several years. Then, our range house burned to the ground with the chronograph inside. When I went to replace this excellent unit it was no longer available. We got lucky as a member had a nearly new Oehler complete with stands that he let us have for a friendly price. I had researched what was available and the above posters have covered them well.

You might want to consider this:
1-I will ONLY buy a chronograph that keeps the expensive components of the chronograph ON THE BENCH away from errant bullets. You WILL shoot it and the danger goes up by the square of the number of shooters using it.

2 - I MUCH prefer having a printer. Get the printer at the outset and you will be more apt to "bite the bullet" then, than waiting to get it (there will always be a reason not to spend the extra "right now").

3- It is VERY nice to have the chronograph do all of the averaging and mathmatics for you AT THE SITE. You will be much more productive. Running chronograph tests on multiple calibers will give you the info NOW. I am normally too tired when getting home after a long session to have the energy and work ethic to run spread sheets at that time. The longer you wait the less apt you are to do something...

4 - Get a chrono with stands that can be used nearly anywhere. Our present set up goes into a relatively large (but not monstous) inexpensive rigid, foam lined, plastic rifle case INCLUDING both stands (folding light stands or music stand type of units). I can set up and be ready to go in just five minutes in most anywhere that I have a bench and real estate. That is a real plus (for years we had dedicated pipes in the ground that required quite a bit of work to get going and restricted us to a single particular bench. Another set up that works well is to have the "screen bar" mounted on a camera tripod. That way you have "tilt and swivel" possibilities to help you "line up" the chrono screens.

Dale53

[AZ-Stew]

I have had both an old (early 1980s) Competition Electronics model and, recently a Chrony Gamma Master. In both cases, the electronics reside in a module that sits on the bench out of the line of fire and is connected to the sensor screens via a cable (2 cables in the case of the old CE model).

Both served me well for a number of years. The sensor screens on the CE model took a number of #8 shotgun pellets and bullet grazes over the years and the unit started to act erratically, so I took advantage of the Chrony trade-in offer and sent them the old CE model and got a substantial discount on the high-end Chrony unit. I also bought the leather case, which keeps everything (Chrony, printer, printer paper roll, shades, support rods and instruction sheets) in a neat package that fits in my range bag along with all the other little things I take to the range. The only extra item I need is a tripod to support the Chrony case/sensor screen unit.

The way to prevent shooting your screens is to sight along the barrel (gun on sandbags), both from the top for centering over the sensors and from the side to check height above the sensors. You should be able to look along the barrel and see the target aligned with the muzzle of the barrel through the window formed by the sensors at the bottom, the sensor shades at the top and the support rods on both sides. If you can do that you won't shoot the sensors or chrono and you'll be able to see the target through your sights. Adjust the sensor support tripod (or hospital table) until everything is aligned.

I've had the Chrony for several years and I will soon have to order a new set of sensor screen shades because the old ones are cracking. I also need to send the electronics module back to Chrony to have the LCD display replaced. During a cease fire, one of our range masters walked between my bench and the tripod and got cought in the cable (wasn't looking where he was going) and pulled the unit off the bench and onto the concrete, with the impact causing a big dark spot in the upper right corner of the display. The Chrony still works, but the last digit is a bit hard to read. I also need to take the cover off the printer and see if I can re-solder the connector (where the cable connects to the Chrony unit) to the circuit board. It's loose, but still works.

The nicest thing about the Gamma Master Chrony is that you can get a cable to connect the unit to your computer and download the Chrony memory to a ballistics program for further analysis. When I bought the Chrony, I bought the cable and their ballistics software so I could directly import the data. I've never seen any company send out a product they knew didn't work as a production item, but that's what I got. It wouldn't even load onto the computer, so I called them and asked. They said they knew it didn't work because the programming wasn't completed yet, but they sold it anyway. I sent it back and got a refund. Generally, though, I've been really happy with the Chrony.

I've been far less happy with the ballistics software packages that are available. They seem to be geared toward Joe Average hunter who's too lazy to look up the ballistics tables for factory ammo in catalogs or on the net. Most of those currently available were written to run on a 486 processor-based computer running DOS or Windows 95. They will allow you to input data from external sources, but it must be done manually - very slow and tedious. So far, I haven't found a ballistics software package that is designed specifically for the handloader/experimenter. I'd like to see one that does NOT have any factory ammo look-ups or bullet or cartridge drawings in it, allows direct importation of chronograph data, allowing the data to be input both into the analysis/graphing section and to a log for annotation and later retrieval, and the ability to overlay and compare graphs of various loads. I would appreciate a look-up of ballistics coefficients of all currently produced J-bullets (not just one manufacturer), with the ability to add new listings as product lines evolve and to allow us to add data for various cast bullets. The software should include a comprehensive shooter's log and a section where we can catalog the contents of our safes. Any suggestions? If I knew Visual Basic I'd write my own program.

Regards,

Stew

[Sundogg1911]

I had a Pro-Chrono. It was ok, but my Buddy shot it. I got a Chrony beta as a replacement. lent it out and the guy shot it! I got it replaced and have used it for several years. Works great. It cost right around $100. It folds up compact and has a case. I really like it and no longer loan it out! I also have the indoor light to mount above the skyscreens. I think the F1 Chrony is a cheaper version (the green one) I don't think it records strings or anything, but a pencil can do that. I think I see it around $70. I think a Chronograph is a great tool for the hand loader. I don't know how I ever got along without one.

[Dark Helmet]

The next one I buy will probably be a Beta Master Chrony (they take shot up units on trade[smilie=1: ). A little hint -Use wooden dowels instead of the provided metal support rods for your skyscreens, they will save you from tearing a lot of expensive bits up when you're off a little on windage! You can also put a piece of heavy plexiglass or other suitable material at an angle in front of the unit to help guard against low shots.:(

[454PB]

I've owned a chronograph in one form or another for 30 years. My first one used the fragible screens, which were made from silver printed paper. Each shot cost 20 cents. Skyscreens are so much better, and my first Oehler had them.

I guess I've owned five different chronographs now, and presently have a Competition Electronics and a Chrony with the remote display.

I've never shot any of mine, but I use the previously mentioned method of sighting along the side of the barrel before firing. I do clean a lot of boolit lube off the front of them, and added a piece of heavy plexiglass to the digital readout on the C.E.

Spend whatever your needs require. For my use, the two I have work just fine.

[rugerdude]

I have had a Beta Master Chrony for several years and can find no faults with it. I got their Ballistic Printer at the same time, and it is great. Saves a lot of time, and both sit right on the bench. Easy to see and easy to use. I haven't shot mine yet, but I have taken a few precautions with it. Since I only use it on my own range, I built a dedicated stand for it. It is simply a 4X4 post cut to the right height with a piece of 2X6 screwed to the top. There is another 4X4 directly in front of that one with a 8X8 piece of 1" thick stainless steel bolted to it at a 45 degree angle. I also use wooden dowel rods to support the skyscreens. Hey, it may have only cost $100, but I have no intentions of replacing it any time soon! :mrgreen:

[montana_charlie]

I think the F1 Chrony is a cheaper version (the green one) I don't think it records strings or anything, but a pencil can do that.
My F1 Chrony is the only chronograph I have ever used, and I've only had it about nine months. So far, I am quite satisfied, and it's 'one string' limitation is not a problem as that is all I need in one gulp.

It will give you more than just the velocity of the last shot.
A button switch wired to a mini-plug will get it to tell you Hi, Lo, Av, SD, and ES with each push of the button...then it will display the velocity of each shot in the string, in the order it was fired.
I write it all on the target it corresponds to, and you can cycle it as many times as you want, to get it all recorded. You can then use the button to reset for the next string.

The wire connecting my button to the Chrony is 20 feet long, so I can set the unit that far away from the bench, but (if you build your own accessory, as I did) you can make it as long as you want. (Chrony also sells one, ready-made.)
At that distance, I can't clearly read the display, but a pair of those seven-dollar (on sale) shirt-pocket sized binoculars do the trick.

The F1 Master is the same Chrony, but the digital readout is not mounted on the front of the unit. It is on a long wire that lets you bring it to the bench, and eliminates the need for building a 'button accessory'.

So far, the only impact on mine was a small fleck of bullet lube, on one occasion.

The one thing I would like to do (which I haven't got up the courage to try) is to have the Chrony sitting out at the target...to measure the speed at that point.
That information, as I understand it, would be useful in calculating the BC of the bullet...something which kinda intrigues me.
CM

[Ricochet]

Another thing to be aware of with the Chrony's screen, besides shooting it or hitting it with gas checks, is that unburned powder particles from coarse powders such as the IMR series will hole the plastic over the screen and make it hard to read. They can do that from 10 feet or so away. It's worth putting a clear protector over the screen before it happens.

[ez4545]

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to thoughtfully answer my request for information on the chronographs.

I placed my order at Midsouth for a Master Alpha Chrony. It has the remote unit that can stay on the bench and I can protect the readout area on the unit while shooting!

Thanks again!

Bill

[Hunter]

Another vote for the CED chronograph.
Here is a link to a review from m1911.org on the CED that Steve and I compiled for the e-zine.
http://ezine.m1911.org/CEDchrono.htm

[USARO4]

I have the low priced ProChrono. Did everything I required it to do. Tough critter to, took 3 well placed shots to finally put it down to stay down. I have to mail back to the manufacturer and see if they can bring it back to life.