.44 Special - Unique powder

[hanover67]

I just acquired a Cimarron/Uberti Bisley ,44 Special and would like to try Unique powder instead of the Bullseye I have been using. I searching the literature, including the list of .44 articles in this forum and a .44 Special search I found a couple of discrepancies, so I thought I'd seek some advice.

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and my old Lyman #45 Reloading Guide differ on a starting load for the bullet i'm using (Lyman 429244 - 245gr gascheck). one says 5.0gr of Unique, the other says 5.7gr. So, I'm going to start at 5.5gr and work up from there.

If any of you have been through this process, I'd love to hear about it. I'm using a 245gr bullet because a 210 grainer shoots low (with 3.5gr. of Bullseye)./i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt292/hanover67/Bisley1.jpg

[Rocky Raab]

You will get several recommendations for the "Skeeter Load" of 7.5 Unique. But note that current lab testing shows that to be a bit warmer than what SAAMI allows for the .44 Special. Manuals today top out at about 7.0 grains Unique with that weight cast bullet.

I wouldn't lean on a Uberti revolver too heavily; they are nowhere near as strong as a Ruger. Your plan to start at 5.5 is fine - and if it were my gun, I'd stop between 6.5 and 7.0 grains.

[smkummer]

I used a Colt SAA and the Lyman 45th edition for my loads. No problem but the recoil with the 2400 powder and a hog leg grip meant that I would only use those loads if needed. I am still loading the 7.5 grains Unique and 429421. Still powerfull. Your bisley grip frame is a joy to shoot over the hog leg. If you get black soot on your cases, it means you are too low pressure, unique will not expand the cases when loaded too low.

[Combat Diver]

Unique is all I use in .44 SPL now days. Only shoot out of a CA Bulldog 3" since I gave my son my Smith 29-2. Don't remember my standard 240 gr load as I'm on the road again. I'll look at my notes this weekend.


CD

[Larry Gibson]

In a closed breach Contender test barrel "Skeeter's load" of 7.5 gr Unique under the 429421 (255 gr) in WW cases with a Fed 150 primer give excellent internal ballistics with a peak average psi(M43) of 22,500. In a revolver with longer throats and the barrel/cylinder gap the psi will be lower but the load is still in the "+P" catagory compared to standard SAAMI MAP for the .44 SPL cartridge.

Skeeter developed that load for Colt P models and he and most everyone else has shot a lot of them. Out of my 5 1/2" barreled SAA revolver that load runs right at 825 fps. I've shot several thousand 240 gr commercial cast over Skeeter's load with nary a hic cup and nothing but excellent accuracy with pleasant shooting.

Larry Gibson

[frank505]

Amen Larry, that load is about perfect for most 44 Special shooting. Easy on the gun too, I've shot thousands in a Colt SAA 5 inch years ago, now its my little Flattop.

[hanover67]

Well, I started with 5.5gr of Unique and I'll stop there, back down, or go back to Bullseye. Recoil was much greater from a 4 3/4" barrel and the point of impact wasn't appreciably higher. I took a few rounds of the 210gr boolits with me and went back to them. It was like taking off a pair of tight shoes - big relief. I'm just paper punching with this gun, so I don't need a hot load anyway, but I was surprised at the snap from a "starting" load. Just for laughs I fired a couple of shots at 200 yard target and could see the hits in the dirt beside it. The front sight base was even with the frame groove and the target perched on top of the front sight blade. Those boolits carry.

[Bret4207]

Wow, I was going to recommend you go to 6.0-6.5 grs Unique. If the recoil is an issue, then I guess you ought to back off that. I use the 6.5 gr loads with the PB 429421 in my little Charter BD.

If you're going to go with real light loads you can save yourself some money by getting a PB mould. No need for a GC with light loads for sure.

[1874Sharps]

In my Colt SAA Peacemaker a load of 6.7 grains of Unique has worked quite well with the classic Lyman 245 grain boolit. I use it for CAS matches (when I do not feel like shooting BP). I would not call this load a light load, but it is certainly not a +P heavy load either. For the shooting I do this load is just right.

[WARD O]

I have shot many 240 - 250 grain cast boolits with 6 grains of Unique in my favorite 44 special...... a 329 PD S&W - heh heh! I am also a fan of the Skeeter load in my 44 special Ruger SA's.

I like Unique a lot and buy it in quantity. I use it in my 12 ga trap loads as well as many light to medium loads in various handguns. It is a very versatile powder in my opinion.

ward

[EDK]

I'm shooting 44 MAGNUM Original Size VAQUEROS, so I understand the problems with the fixed sights.

First thing, I'd get a mould for a PLAIN BASE boolit. Gas checks are getting too expensive...especially for the lower end loads you're looking for.

Second, look at the HODGDON Cowboy Action Data pamphlet. The various current LYMAN books are also a good source.

Your COLT SAA clone isn't the strongest gun available. Stay low and enjoy it. I had the dubious experience of seeing a gentleman blow up a nicely engraved COLT clone at a Cowboy Action shoot. Pop...Pop...KA-POW...and launched the top strap and top half of the cylinder. No injuries, but a lot of dumb luck for all around him.

OT A lady shooter at the Quigley rifle shoot in Montana last month blew up an original BALLARD rifle with a smokeless load(?) Had minor facial cuts, but it screwed up her left hand big time. ..took her to Salt Lake City for treatment with a hand specialist....haven't any more since then.

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:

[monge]

I found my vaquero shoots high with 240grers 210 grs seams to be better .what a good start for unique in this weight? Thanks JOE

[EDK]

Rather than quote specific loads, I'd suggest looking at the HODGDON Cowboy Action Shooting data pamphlet and the various LYMAN reloading handbooks. I like to run loads somewhere between TOP END 44 SPECIAL and BOTTOM LEVEL 44MAGNUM for my CAS/target shooting. I like round nose/flat point boolits that will feed in my MARLIN Cowboy rifles, but also use some semi-wadcutters and THREE different design and weight full wadcutters.

Has anyone else noticed that somewhere around 7 grains of various powders is "the sweet spot" for utility loads in 44 Magnums? HERCO, UNIQUE, HP38/231, PROMO/RED DOT or TITEGROUP all work for me in that range with 240-to-270 grain boolits.

:redneck: :cbpour: :guntootsmiley:

[Dale53]

The NRA Reloading handbook shows the so called "Skeeter Load" of 7.5 grs of Unique behind a Lyman 429421 Keith bullet (247 grs in their alloy) to have a pressure of less than 12,000 psi. That is well within any modern full size .44 Special handgun level for continuous use. I have several .44 Special handguns (including a Cimarron) and they ALL shoot it without issue and excellent accuracy.

FWIW
Dale53

[canyon-ghost]

I just did this load. Unique adds recoil and velocity slowly so, I was surprised that it was very mild to work with. I started out with a Lee 200 grain RF bullet and worked from 7.0 grains up through 8.0 grains. I tested all ten loads through my flattop using printer targets and a half sheet of plywood to hold them all. I think I did five at a time and then changed the board.

I came out with the most accuracy to be at 7.4 grains of Unique. That would be true only for my particular Blackhawk and load but, it works. It wasn't particularly wild at 8.0 grains just stout in recoil. I saw the accuracy degrade as the group spread apart on the paper. So, I took the smallest group and used that load. Not hard at all to follow, it just plain works.

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt292/hanover67/Bisley1.jpg

With a heavier bullet and a lighter revolver, I'd say you might want to try loading rather light and work up slowly. I like living close enough to the range that I don't panic if a need a full cleaning kit and more than one session to determine the load for it.

You can, if you like, use any of the various 44-40 bullet molds out there, they make good lightweights for 44 special.

[Rocky Raab]

Dale, what's the date on that NRA load data? If they use "psi" but did the test with a copper crusher, that might explain why their pressure number is lower than what labs today get with the Skeeter load. Transducer testing shows the Skeeter load to be a bit above current SAAMI limits, which makes it risky for original Colts and clones.

[monge]

My vaquero loves 5.6 of w231 under lee 214gr in 44sp light recoil and accurate good can popper at 40 yards!

[softpoint]

I use 231 in my 696 S&W, and 8.0 Herco with the 240-250 grain cast.

[Dale53]

Rocky;
That NRA data is somewhat dated and, no doubt, used copper crusher technique for measuring pressures. However, SAAMI is low for the .44 Special due to the older, non heat treated, revolvers.

Using modern revolvers (after 1950) I see no problem with the Skeeter load. However, I would never argue with someone like yourself who suggests caution. Most of my revolvers are modern full size Smith's or modern Ruger Single actions with the exception of the modern Cimarron.

FWIW
Dale53

[Rocky Raab]

We aren't arguing, my friend. This is just a discussion of gun stuff over a cup of coffee.

I agree with you about modern guns, by the way. SAAMI can't be quite so blasé about the matter, and have to include ALL guns in working order for their pressure limits. A similar low ceiling affects the .30-06 versus the .308, simply because there are .30-06 guns a half century older than any in .308. Steels and heat-treating changed a LOT in those 50 years. That holds for revolvers, too.

It isn't eased any by that whole "psi" thing during the copper crusher years. Copper units of pressure had no relation to actual psi, but were reported as if they were the same. That was a VERY poor and unfortunate assumption.

[Dale53]

Rocky;
It has to be quite confusing to newer shooters trying to do the right thing and stay out of trouble.

However, this Forum and good people like you (and I try to be:-?) helps them to chart their way.

The real problems that can happen are when a newer shooter may happen upon a fine old revolver like the Smith Triple Lock in good shape that looks like it could handle most anything when the truth is, those revolvers were not heat treated and are rather tender, in spite of their great reputation for quality.

I see the same problems when discussing 1917 Smiths (as well as Colts). They are not nearly so stout as the later Model 25's and 625's. It IS kind of ironic, in my case, because 90%+ of what I shoot in my 625's are light target loads - typically 4.0 grs of Bullseye or equivalent behind a Mihec clone of the H&G #68 (200 gr SWC). This, of course, is perfectly safe for the older revolvers.

Others mention that the Italian Colt Clones are often of uncertain quality, also. My Cimarron is extremely well made but I have no idea what materials and what heat treatment it has. It does get it's share of the "Skeeter Load" (.44 Special) but that is as heavy as its going to get.

FWIW
Dale53

[Rocky Raab]

I'm honored by your praise, Dale.

Reloading was a lot safer before the internet. When new handloaders got their advice and instruction only from manuals, they usually used only prudent loads. Today, they can read many conflicting bits of lore - some of which are patently dangerous and likely made up. Voices of caution are often bullyragged as less than manly - by anonymous ninnyhammers with nothing to risk.

[1Shirt]

Rocky hit the nail on the head! Regardless of what is posted on the web, and regardless of the forum, it is more than prudent to cross reference with current reloading manual(s)! At least one, two or three are better yet, and a good investment. The only thing worse than accepting a posted load at face value, is to take someones word of mouth without cross referencing with a manual.
1Shirt!

[Sven]

I have to agree with Shirt. I enjoy checking out data in my Speer #8, but go to current loading books for actual load development.

That said, I have been using Universal quite a bit lately instead of Unique. Using Universal data, of course. It meters very well through my Dillon 550B powder measure.

[rintinglen]

While I agree with your general core statement that care is needed for safe reloading, the notion that "reloading was safer before the internet" is hogwash. True, there is always someone who will post his "hand grenade" recipe for revolver dismantling, but there are enough intelligent and informed people who will call "shenanigans" when they see something unsafe. There is a plethora of good tested data from the manufacturers available at a moments notice. And there are honest researchers who share their information and data based on their own testing of "recommended loads." When Larry Gibson speaks, I listen.

Then too, A load book may list 20 different powders for a cartridge. One person doing adequate testing from top to bottom for each powder would take months or years to find "the" load for his use, if his wife didn't leave him or his bank account run dry first. But asking around on sites such as this will get the benefit of others people "research" as to what works best, or at least, what has worked better for others.

Read some of the recommended loads in the 1957 Lyman manual. Most are fine, but some, whoa howdy. Phil Sharpe had a chapter in his book on reloading called "and the angels sing" where in he described some of the follies that people tried. Heck, Ol" Elmer admitted blowing up "several" revolvers in his experimenting days. These are the "good old days" when it comes to reloading data. It simply requires that one use some basic reporter skills in evaluating information. (Eg, Verify and cross check sources, never take one statement as fact, two witnesses are better than one, four are better than two).

Somebody here, I think Gearnasher has as part of his signature the observation that "the ability to sparate the wheat from the chaff is one of life's most important skills." Words to live by.

[leftiye]

I'm honored by your praise, Dale.

Reloading was a lot safer before the internet. When new handloaders got their advice and instruction only from manuals, they usually used only prudent loads. Today, they can read many conflicting bits of lore - some of which are patently dangerous and likely made up. Voices of caution are often bullyragged as less than manly - by anonymous ninnyhammers with nothing to risk.

Plus they mighta usta had some clue as to how powders and pressure rise to "detonation" (vertical part of pressure curve) work. I remember beating the subject to death for a while back in the 70s. They might not necessarily have figured that out, but it is in the manuals, and back then everybody had diddled with the timing on their car and got detonation. I'm surprised to not hear more about this when people ask about detonation, and SEE. Not understanding pressure curves severely handicaps one in choosing powder applications, and especially in figgering out "how much". Older guns and not knowing how much weaker they were can lead to big mistakes.

[Old Shooter]

I use 7.0 of unique in 44 special cases with 429421 bullets and cci large primers. It works great in a 5-1/2" super blackhawk.

[DanLee]

The Skeeter Skeleton load is my standard, but I have a S&W 624. Actually, I sometimes shoot the old Elmer Keith load through it just for grins.

[TCLouis]

Larry G.

Did you test pressures of the 429421 with 6.5 and 7.0 of Unique?

How about any other loadings?

[Jaymo]

I'm looking for a hunting load to use in my Ruger flattop .44 Special Blackhawk.
It'll be used for GA whitetail deer and feral hogs.
The Skeeter Skelton load looks good. The Elmer Keith load looks great, except for the fact that I'm shooting a flattop BH and not the .45 Colt frame BH.
I've heard that the Elmer Keith load is fine in the flattop.
I've also heard that it's pressure is too high for the flattop.

[Dale53]

Brian Pearce's article in the Handloader on the .44 Special Flattop is my guide to load levels. If you don't have that article (June-July 2009 #260) send me a PM with your Email address and I'll send you a copy. In it, Keith's load of 17.0 grs of 2400 behind a 250 gr Keith bullet, is listed. That would be my choice for deer or hog hunting. I can tell you for sure, that load will shoot lengthwise through a large whitetail deer at 100 yards. I've done it...

FWIW
Dale53

[The Black Spot]

I have a uberti cimarron in 44 special. mine shoots point of aim with 210 gr and 5 gr of bullseye.

[Tokarev]

I use 6gr Universal behind Lee 214gr in 44mag cases for Redhawk and that's an accurate plinking load with virtually no recoil and muzzle jump. For the 44spcl cases I would drop a grain and start there. 5gr Universal IMO equals 6gr Unique. That would be the load I tried.

[monge]

6.9 unique 429421 45/8 blackhawk sized to.430 is a tack driver very manageable recoil ! My two cents

[err.gray]

Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, third edition, copyright 1980 calls for between 4.7 and 6.4 grains Unique under a 240 grain lead semi wadcutter, with an O.A.L. of 1.500" hope this helps

[9.3X62AL]

Late to the party, as usual.

Rocky, I'm intrigued by your concerns for the Pasta Colta SAAs in 44 Special and use of Skeeter's Load therein. FWIW, 9.0 grains of Unique in a 45 Colt Uberti with 255 grain castings seemed pretty docile--more often than not, cases fell free as the cylinder was rolled past the open gate.

For post-war Colts and S&Ws, my thoughts are that while Skeeter's Load is likely all right, the Keith-level loads (#429421 x 17.0 x 2400) are "a bridge too far". I mean, I DO have a Redhawk in 44 Magnum--there's no need to strain the Special that far. As always, your thoughts on this musing of mine are welcome.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry G.

Did you test pressures of the 429421 with 6.5 and 7.0 of Unique?

How about any other loadings?

Apologies for the late reply.

I have not tested several older loads including lessor amounts of Unique in the 44 SPL. My testing so far was mostly with factory loads, the factory duplication load with 5 gr Bullseye and a work up with VV Tin Star powder for CAS shooting.

Interesting to note that 9 gr Unique (same lot BTW) in magnum cases gave less psi that the 7.5 gr load in SPL cases.

I will be testing more in the future and will post the data.

Larry Gibson

[9.3X62AL]

Interesting to note that 9 gr Unique (same lot BTW) in magnum cases gave less psi that the 7.5 gr load in SPL cases.

I just love anomalies.

[44magLeo]

In my 44's, a 7.5 inch SBH and a 5.5 inch Red Hawk really liked 7.5 grs, 421429 as cast in ac ww in Special cases, 8.5 in mag cases. Both shoot very well, better than I can. Both come in around 850-900 FPS.
The recoil differences between the the OP's loads are not the powder but the bullet weight. The extra 30 to 40 grs of bullet make a much bigger difference than the powder.
Try the loading your light bullet and your heavier bullets to about the same velocity, some with Bullseye, some with Unique. Compare the recoil.
To get the load you like to hit to point of aim, just file the top of the front sight down till it brings the point of impact up to the point of aim. That's how they were designed to work. They put a too tall front sight on, you find a load you like, adjust front sight height to match point of impact to point of aim.
Leo