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Leftoverdj
07-10-2005, 11:52 PM
Who would be interested in having Lee's 457-405-HP made up as a gas checked .459 with a deeper HP? Has to be a single cavity and would run about $32.

Bodydoc447
07-11-2005, 07:07 AM
You guys are killing me! Sounds like one i have to have for a Ruger #1. Guess I need another job to pay for all these molds.

Doc

ben1025
07-11-2005, 07:28 AM
I have a Lee .459-405-HB (not 457 or HP) which I like. With a BHN 14 it drops a .461+ bullit. I would buy a .460(.461)-405-HP-GC or non GC (with the big lube groves) sounds good to me. A lot easier sizing a bullet down then bumping one up. ben1025

45 2.1
07-11-2005, 07:45 AM
I think the Lee 457-405-HP needs more lube capacity if you want to do this. It would make a good bullet with or without the gas check also.

Johnch
07-11-2005, 01:22 PM
I would be interested in a GC version .
Extra grease grove or deeper grease grove would be nice

Johnch

9.3X62AL
07-11-2005, 02:51 PM
Deeper grooves--.460"-461" in WW metal. I'm in.

Bodydoc447
07-11-2005, 03:10 PM
Deeper grease grooves would definitely be a plus. Are we still collectively thinking Gas Checked?

Doc

Leftoverdj
07-11-2005, 04:03 PM
Yup, still thinking GC. A regular production mould can be lapped for those who just want a fatter diameter PB.

Bodydoc447
07-11-2005, 04:18 PM
Kewl. I am definitely in for at least one of those.

Doc

9.3X62AL
07-11-2005, 06:55 PM
Exactly, DJ. Seen that movie already, and I like it.

The sole problem with the RCBS 405 FNGC is insufficient diameter for my #1, which runs .459" throat and groove. Mass-market oldmakers are stuck on .457" as-cast dimensions for 45 rifles, and Lee is no better than Lyman or RCBS in this regard. As long as we EMPHASIZE as-cast @ .460"-.461" with wheelweight metal, life will be good.

For my money in the #1's and their ability to really soup up the 45-70, the 400 grain-class of boolits is about ideal. I've resisted the "Special Order De Jour" temptation so far, but this one is just what the doctor ordered.

I will commit to one at this time!

Buckshot
07-11-2005, 10:59 PM
...............Dern! Why don't you just leave off the HP deal and get it in a 6 holer? :-) (Putting on nomex, flame retardant full coverage firestorm suit and calling in the water bombers) :lol:

Oh go ahead and HAVE your darn ole HP!

...............Buckshot

Beau Cassidy
07-12-2005, 07:22 AM
I will take one or two. Sans GC is why I haven't bought one before.

Beau

drinks
07-16-2005, 03:22 PM
I would, but I got tired of the bullets I wanted not being gc's, so I built this tool.
Has a collet chuck, I can make a collet of any size needed, this went to a friend who does not have a minilathe, I just use a collet chuck in my little lathe and cut it with a cutoff tool.

9.3X62AL
07-16-2005, 03:39 PM
No need for Nomex, Buckshot. Not a bad idea, really. Most of us don't have high-volume/belt-fed 45 rifles, and my #1 uses boolits at about the rate that a single-cavity mold can produce them. Folks with Marlin lever guns or several 45-70's might like such a tool.

To paraphrase a PM I just sent out, I am neither married to nor opposed to a HP design. I'm not real fond of the Lee short radius ogive, and would prefer the RCBS-type long radius "truncated ogive". This would fit a lot more chamber configurations than the Lee does--the Lee is practically a "bore-rider". My strongest preference is that the as-cast diameter be not less than .460" in WW metal, .461" being ideal.

Nose length needs to conform to Marlin 95/Win 86 limitations, and a crimping groove might not be a bad plan for the levergunners. For my uses, this is not critical--but some folks might need such attributes, and they won't hurt in my rifle a bit.

porkchop bob
07-16-2005, 05:57 PM
I need to be educated. Am sure this is the group to do the teaching.
_ If a FP bullet has a hole drilled into it so it looks like a HP, assuming everything else remains the same, will it shoot just the same as a CAST HP?
_ Can a 45-70 HP (WW) be expected to expand?

Thanks, Bob

Scrounger
07-16-2005, 06:33 PM
I need to be educated. Am sure this is the group to do the teaching.
_ If a FP bullet has a hole drilled into it so it looks like a HP, assuming everything else remains the same, will it shoot just the same as a CAST HP?
_ Can a 45-70 HP (WW) be expected to expand?

Thanks, Bob

Porkchop Bob, you've beat me out of several dozen molds on EBAY; somehow I don't feel like you're a beginner at this...
Not complaining, just noting I recognize the name. Welcome.

45 2.1
07-16-2005, 06:50 PM
I need to be educated. Am sure this is the group to do the teaching.
_ If a FP bullet has a hole drilled into it so it looks like a HP, assuming everything else remains the same, will it shoot just the same as a CAST HP?
_ Can a 45-70 HP (WW) be expected to expand?

Thanks, Bob

If the drilled hollow point is centered, yes, but they seldom are.
Yes, but it would expand better with a softer alloy.

Jumptrap
07-16-2005, 07:25 PM
Porkchop Bob, you've beat me out of several dozen molds on EBAY; somehow I don't feel like you're a beginner at this...
Not complaining, just noting I recognize the name. Welcome.

Scrounger,

Touche'!

Very good one, *********!

I've been bombed so damned many times by folks that are less than strangers using psuedomonikers, that I rarely bother to bid on a mould any longer. Then again, I suppose that is just what they wanted in the first place.

BruceB
07-16-2005, 09:19 PM
It just so happens that I'm thinking hard (what did you THINK that funny smell was???) about some deer-hunting loads for my .416 Rigby and .45-70 Shiloh Sharps.

The.45-70 won't be a problem because I have the 457122 335-grain Gould HP mould, and I believe that 100-plus-years' experience has satisfied us all about its effectiveness on deer. This might be a smokeless load, but the blackpowder has a lot of appeal to me, too.

The Rigby is another question. The RCBS 416-350 weighs about 365 grains in WW, and I intend to cast up some of these in 50/50 WW/pure lead for trials. In PURE LEAD, the design shoots at 2000 fps without leading but somewhat less accurately than in WW alloy. I expect the 50/50 boolits will be better.

So, I'm now thinking about hollowpointing these .416s for trials. The design has a nice big flat meplat, and I figger that if I remove the seating stem from the seating die, I'll have a pretty accurate "alignment bushing" for a drill bit of the same diameter as the threaded part of the seating stem....no? It would make hollowpointing of loaded rounds simple. This should allow decent alignment for the drill bit to cut the hollowpoint, and by adjusting the die up or down as needed, I'll have good depth control as well.

I'd have to leave enough clearance at the meplat for the cuttings to accumulate...shouldn't be a problem, with the seating stem out of the picture.

porkchop bob
07-16-2005, 11:30 PM
If the drilled hollow point is centered, yes, but they seldom are.
Yes, but it would expand better with a softer alloy.

Fellow Leadheads, if this mold is to be designed as a single cavity HP, then perhaps the mold specs should be designed for use of an alloy softer than WW?

Most of my shooting is at paper targets using WW cast bullets. I seldom have a chance to recover a bullet. I did recover a Keith type bullet fired from a S&W 625 45ACP with the cylinder bored out to allow use of the 460 Roland. Using a Starline 460 Roland at close to max, the bullet went through two pine trees, total of 13 inches and was sticking out of the bark on the back side. The bullet was intact. It had a slight dent in the FP and the lube groove had been ironed out.

With this one example in mind, the HP cavity in a bullet designed to be cast with WW will have to be both deep and wide to insure it will expand. Such a design will move the CG back towards the rear and give you a longer bullet then another FP with the same weight. A slightly longer bullet should also be more accurate. However, I have not seen such a design and a proto-type should be made and tested on real game before a group buy is considered.

That returns us to considering use of a softer alloy than WW. The old HP designs were created before we had WW and most likely were cast in pure lead or 20/1, or 16/1 lead/tin.

All of this is from a shooter of paper targets. Stopped shooting game when I realized the wife was never going to cook it. But that is another story. So I must defer to the real experiences of hunters and how they have found the bullets they cast to perform on the game they are hunting.

Bob

porkchop bob
07-17-2005, 05:23 AM
Porkchop Bob, you've beat me out of several dozen molds on EBAY; somehow I don't feel like you're a beginner at this...
Not complaining, just noting I recognize the name. Welcome.

Good morning, Scrounger and the rest of the Leadheaders.

Thanks for the welcome. I have been following the proceedings of CASTPICS for years and when my son, who is a member, told me of your new site decided to give a look. I found CASTPICS to be a wealth of good information, much of which is not available elsewhere. For all of that hard work, thanks.

I have the equipment and a nice range of molds for the pistols and rifles I own but am not shooting as much as I want and not doing all that much casting. I do admit it really is twice the fun shooting holes in the target when you have cast the bullet and reloaded the round.

I am an avid reader and CASTPICS is what got me started as a caster. I still consider myself to be a newbie. My mind tells me that I must make a batch of Ed's Red and Felix World Famous Lube before I can graduate from the rank of newbie. That will happen soon.

Thanks again for the warm welcome.

Bob

35remington
07-21-2005, 11:10 PM
DJ, put me in as interested in a hollowpoint gascheck, with deeper hollow, in .461" diameter as per Deputy Al. Fine with bigger lube grooves, but I'm not after max velocity as I envision a hollowpoint as a deer bullet.
I need the large diameter for my Microgroove Marlin.

FWIW, I've shot some of Beagle's 257412 gascheck hollowpoints into wet phone books and got expansion at velocities as low as 1000 fps. Cast of wheelweights and a little tin, as I recall. The hollowpoint really does help a bullet expand at lower impact velocities. I'm picturing myself shooting my 2006 deer with bullets from the proposed mould already.

Dr. A
07-25-2005, 10:03 AM
Has any thought gone to a gas checked Gould type weight? This is a known effective design that I have always wanted going faster. It does work well for me with plain wheel weights, but definitely could use a bit more effective speed. The larger bullet I am not against, but this was just another thought.

(especially since this is just a deer bullet)

Larry Gibson
07-29-2005, 11:25 AM
If it's not to late count me in for one. I agree with Deputy Al and 35Remington on the .461 for use in TDs and Marlins. It's easy to size down to .459 for the others but I'd bet they'd shoot just as well if not better with .461 bullets anyways. A little larger lube grooves is ikay too. I'm on the other side of the world these days so it will take about ten days for a check to reach you. Let me know.

Larry Gibson

Leftoverdj
07-29-2005, 12:43 PM
Larry, we are being lazy on this one. Project is still alive, but I have not even gotten the samples off to 45 2.1 for the drawing. Should get that done today or tomorrow. If someone is in a hurry, they can step up and run this one, but I am not going to start a second project until C312-155-2R ships. You should have plenty of time to get in.

David R
07-29-2005, 05:14 PM
This is good, I don't have a 45 70 YET, but when the order gets ready to go I will get a mold so I will need to find a rifle to fit the mold.

I am in 2 group buys right now, so no hurry on my part either.

David

Wayne Smith
08-04-2005, 07:13 AM
I'll chime in on the 'no hurry' idea. I've got lots of projects going, too many, but one is building a 45-70 on a Martini action that my gunsmith has been playing with for a year or so. I think we'll be getting going, so I'll need a mold other than the Lyman 457125(?) close to the oriiginal 500 grain mold that I have. It's nice, but round nosed and heavy.

I'm at least a year away from having a rifle in 45-70 unless something totally different happens by before then.

cabezaverde
08-04-2005, 08:27 AM
I would be in. I think almost any of the design points discussed would worker in my Ruger #2.

PatMarlin
08-04-2005, 11:50 PM
Exactly, DJ. Seen that movie already, and I like it.

The sole problem with the RCBS 405 FNGC is insufficient diameter for my #1, which runs .459" throat and groove. Mass-market oldmakers are stuck on .457" as-cast dimensions for 45 rifles, and Lee is no better than Lyman or RCBS in this regard. As long as we EMPHASIZE as-cast @ .460"-.461" with wheelweight metal, life will be good.

For my money in the #1's and their ability to really soup up the 45-70, the 400 grain-class of boolits is about ideal. I've resisted the "Special Order De Jour" temptation so far, but this one is just what the doctor ordered.

I will commit to one at this time!

I thoroughly
agree with the Deputy on this one- my Guide Gun too... [smilie=w:

9.3X62AL
08-05-2005, 02:53 AM
No hurry from this end of the deal, either. Whoever decides to "booshway" this one will get the check as soon as the call goes out.

In the meantime, I've gotten a couple otherwise recalcitrant 45 rifle molds to act a little better by cutting the casting temp down to 625-650 degrees using 92/6/2 alloy. In the Lee 405, I picked up diameter to a righteous .459", and around .4585" with the RCBS-300. Maybe these fattened-without-Beagling castings will behave themselves in the #1 until a purpose-built design comes along.

Leftoverdj
08-16-2005, 09:23 PM
Al, I'm ready to go with this when you are. The 7.62x39 deal is done.

Bodydoc447
08-17-2005, 08:49 AM
Let me know where and when to send my check! I'm looking forward to this one. I'm going to have to get two!

Doc

MGySgt
08-17-2005, 08:25 PM
I have been watching and checking on this since it got started. I really don't know where you are at with the design, over 400gr? 461+? GC or PB.

I have 2 marlins, #1 and a 45/90 Sharps Repro - they all need a lot of feeding!!! I haven't had time to cast my 44's and 45 ACP's for awhile trying to keep these rifles feed!

A 6 banger will get me ahead of the game - Hopefully!

Drew

Bodydoc447
08-18-2005, 06:28 AM
I thought we were lookig at a 405 GC HP.

Doc

9.3X62AL
08-18-2005, 09:40 AM
The "hollow point" and "6-packer" are pretty much mutually exclusive. The weight class--400 grains or thereabouts--and diameter (.461") are my only preferences. The rest of the details aren't deal-breakers for me. Since my 45-70 is a single shot, a single cavity produces sufficient boolits to keep up with my needs.

The only caveat I would issue involves the nose shape. The conventional Lee design with its short ogive radius and almost "bore rider" portion behind the radius DOES NOT get along well with the "Government ballseat" found in my Ruger #1--and I suspect it cause similar problems with Trapdoors so chambered and Marlin leverguns with their abrupt leades and short throats. This interface requires deeper seating to enable chambering. My thoughts run toward an RCBS-type nose profile, which sacrifices a little meplat to enable a wider range of seating depth options.

Crimp groove placement is another question. It occurs to me that Marlin 95 and Win 86 rifles likely are the majority of rifles using this caliber, so a small crimp groove may be preferred in order to make the boolit "repeater-friendly". I lean toward a front drive band of around .050" just ahead of this crimp recess.

45 2.1
08-27-2005, 10:24 PM
Something to look at: a near copy of the RCBS 405 gr. bumped to 0.461" diameter with a hollow point.

StarMetal
08-27-2005, 10:52 PM
45 2.1

I see put my samples to good use. Nice job.

Joe

porkchop bob
08-27-2005, 11:29 PM
Something to look at: a near copy of the RCBS 405 gr. bumped to 0.461" diameter with a hollow point.


When this hollow point buy is complete, please consider this same design as a solid CB in a 6-C mold. Thanks, Bob

45 2.1
08-27-2005, 11:37 PM
Personaly, I would like it better with a band and groove removed with a longer gas check shank. Unless you are hunting really heavy game, the 350 to 370 gr. bullets in the 4570 are easier to make work right.

Bodydoc447
08-28-2005, 07:36 PM
Love the drawing! I like the idea of a GC 350-70 grain bullet, too. I hope we can get this HP project off the ground and then work on that one. I think you are right about the lighter bullet being more than adequate for deer and most other big game.

Thanks to all you guys with the good ideas. I am eating a record amount of ramen, but the bullet mold larder and coffee cans of bullets are starting to be impressive (okay, maybe just to me).

Doc

Buckshot
08-29-2005, 07:46 PM
Love the drawing! I like the idea of a GC 350-70 grain bullet, too. I hope we can get this HP project off the ground and then work on that one. I think you are right about the lighter bullet being more than adequate for deer and most other big game.

Thanks to all you guys with the good ideas. I am eating a record amount of ramen, but the bullet mold larder and coffee cans of bullets are starting to be impressive (okay, maybe just to me).

Doc

..........Ramen is good for you. Good for the soul. And makes that big fat steak taste SOOOOOOOOO much better later on!

...............Buckshot

The Nyack Kid
08-30-2005, 05:58 PM
please count me in for a 400 gr Hp gas check . what i dont like about the lighter hollow points is that while they may work fine for deer , they expand to much on elk and moose . they dont have the weight behind them to drive though the shoulders . i like the idea of a 400gr hollow point cast of wheel weights .this would expand reliably at lower velocities and still have weight for penetration .harder alloys like WW would help contol expantion . soft alloys like 20 to 1 would over expand at higher velocities . I would want the gas check design becouse i like to push my hunting loads as fast as I can bare . 1900 fps would be easy to obtain and still keep pressures in the 35000 psi range and recoil tolerable . ive been wanting a mold like in the drawing for some time now .

9.3X62AL
08-31-2005, 10:49 AM
45-2.1

DONE DEAL, sir! The RCBS nose profile gets along with the Ruger throat just fine--both the 300 and 400 grain castings do the right thing in terms of nose form.

45 2.1
08-31-2005, 06:32 PM
It's up to dj to decide if he wants this one or something else. He might have a second option we haven't seen yet.

Buckshot
09-01-2005, 02:38 AM
...............You know, if a hollowpoint was REALLY necessary you could put one on the boolit after it's loaded. Run the loaded round up into the seater die against the crimp shoulder, with the seater removed. With a hollow adaptor in the die to accept a drill bit with a stop, you make the HP. You have a 6 cavity for production of slugs for general shooting and whatever, and you can make a HP for hunting without being hampered by casting them one at a time.

.............Buckshot

MGySgt
09-03-2005, 03:35 PM
Something to look at: a near copy of the RCBS 405 gr. bumped to 0.461" diameter with a hollow point.

45 2.1 - any chance I could get the spec's on this one? I would like to spec it out on Dan's design app and have him make me one up for my Marlins. It might even be good in my Ruger#1.

Drew

grumble
09-18-2005, 04:58 PM
From reading the thread (but not counting), it would seem this 45-70 mold is about ready to go? If it will be a six-banger (ie, NOT a hollowpoint) and at LEAST .459, I'm in.

Has anyone stepped up to honcho it yet?

porkchop bob
09-18-2005, 09:56 PM
This thread is for a 45-70 HP with diameter of 0.461.

Reply #36 has picture of 'RCBS 405 grains' with a large HP. No indication of resulting weight. Lets say it is about 395 to 410 grains. (A guess)

Reply #39 suggests removing a band and lube groove and increasing gas check shank and projects weight to be 350 to 370 grains.

It would be useful to see a picture of the above two CB side by side with a good guess of their weights and go from there.

Let's get the HP project finished :-)
-----------------
Once the HP project is over -
Others, myself included, want a 6-C design for the 45-70. But that is another project and should be another thread.

Bob

Frank46
09-19-2005, 02:31 AM
Al, what kind of throat does your ruger #1 have?. Mine has the lands and grooves starting where the chamber ends. I can only seat out a rem bulk 45 300 grainer about 1/8" past the crimp groove. I heard somewhere that some of the older versions of the #1 had an actual leade so you could seat boolits further out. Frank

9.3X62AL
09-19-2005, 03:06 AM
Frank--

Practically no leade at all, and an ABRUPT rifling origin--about like a city street curb. My rifle is about 10 years old, IIRC.

David R
09-19-2005, 06:11 AM
I missed the part about HOLLOW POINT. I don't even hunt.

How many cavity will this be?

Looks interesting, but I have no use for my first 45 70 mold to be a HP.

Thanks Guys and sorry if I screwed up.

David

Leftoverdj
09-19-2005, 11:30 AM
trk and I are playing with a design. When we get it done, I'll post it. We've missed this hunting season already with Lee's lead time considered, so there is no great hurry.

bart55
09-26-2005, 12:24 AM
whenever you get the design worked out I will be in for one,like the idea of 461 dia as my trapdoor and my enfield with the ruger number 3 bbl need the larger dia boolits , I have six 45 70 rifles so a six holer would be appropriate Bart

Spokerider
10-17-2005, 05:33 PM
Hello all,
I just found this site through a link on my favorite Canadian Gun site. Lucky I am. Anyway, is this 45 70 HP mould still a go? If so please include me in your group buy. Although I don't have a Marlin Guide gun yet, I'll will soon enough and I'll be casting Boolits for it too. Sounds like just the medicine for bear, elk and moose.
Thanks.

NuJudge
10-17-2005, 06:02 PM
Either would be nice, if knowledgeable people think they will shoot in a Marlin barrel.

CDD

35remington
10-17-2005, 09:10 PM
If it's .461" it will shoot in a Microgroove or Ballard Marlin barrel. That's why we're asking for it to be oversized.

The 45-70 rifles I've worked with would show better accuracy if they were loaded with bullets cast to this diameter, rather than the .457" (Lee standard production) or .458-.459" of the RCBS designs.

wmitty
11-07-2005, 09:58 PM
Fellers, is this idea temporarily on hold? I'd sure be interested in one of these.

Willbird
11-08-2005, 07:32 AM
I'm WAY into a 6 popper design for 45/70, but would also probably buy a one holer.

Bill

ben1025
11-14-2005, 10:23 AM
Count me in for one. ben1025

PatMarlin
12-03-2005, 01:15 PM
Let's get it on!! :bigsmyl2: