Lube question: Felix vs. MML?

[famdoc2892]

I want a lube for cold-weather hunting. After a time-consuming process of reading the entire "short" Felix lube thread and gathering ingredients, I made up a fine-looking batch of Felix. Only to discover (when I found my notes again!) that I have Felix listed as a warm-weather lube, and that MML was to have been my cold-weather choice!

Straighten me out; is Felix a warm-weather or cold-weather lube?

[btroj]

It depends.
What do you consider cold weather? What cartridge?
I have found some lubes have issues with cold barrel flyers at temps below 40 degrees. It isn't as pronounced, in my experience, with heavy bullets of large diameter- things like a 420 gr 45-70 are better than a 120 in a 32-20.
Felix lube can be modified a bit for better cold weather capabilities. The addition of a small amount of Vaseline or ATF can make a big difference.

My suggestion is to wait for fall and test what you have then make a few small additions to the lube of warranted. Adding even 2 to 5 percent ATR could make it into a grea cold weather lube.

[famdoc2892]

I'm using a 308 with a 170-grain Lyman 311291 and typical winter temps range from 15-50 degrees here. I don't mind the idea of modifying the lube, but when should the ATF be added? Mixed into the finished lube (re-melted, of course) or during production?

[wiljen]

You could remelt and add atf if desired. Did you make the felix lube with lanolin and Carnauba wax? I usually do and just increase the lanolin slightly and it works fine in colder weather.

[sundog]

I use it the same year round, rifle and handgun.

[famdoc2892]

Thanks, Wiljen, I made it with lanolin and beeswax, no carnauba. I could add lanolin at low temp. I didn't use carnauba because I worried it would cause cold-barrel fliers, and I need first-shot accuracy for winter hunting.

Would you add ATF or lanolin, and how much? I'm new to lube, and more comfortable following recipes than experimenting due to limited range time.

[geargnasher]

My advice is quit obsessing, and start shooting. The flyers you can expect at 30 degrees are about an inch out of the "group" at 100 yards. Can you live with that? You may find that attempts to winterize it prematurely affect the way it shoots now.

Gear

[44man]

I use Felix all year. To make a different lube for all weather is super nuts. A few need 1000 lubes for every degree during the day.
Nobody can shoot good enough to see a difference.

[btroj]

I can see a differnce, in some specific circumstances. I get first and second round cold barrel flyers in my 32-20 Marlin using a carnuba Red at temps below 50 degrees or so. These shots are 1 RP 2 inches out of the group at xx50 yards. For deer hunting I wouldn't care buti wouldn't trust that load and lube for squirrel hunting.
I agree with Gear, go shoot. For most situations it isnt gonna make a difference. My 45-70 doesn't seem to care at all.

[44man]

I can see a differnce, in some specific circumstances. I get first and second round cold barrel flyers in my 32-20 Marlin using a carnuba Red at temps below 50 degrees or so. These shots are 1 RP 2 inches out of the group at xx50 yards. For deer hunting I wouldn't care buti wouldn't trust that load and lube for squirrel hunting.
I agree with Gear, go shoot. For most situations it isnt gonna make a difference. My 45-70 doesn't seem to care at all.
Cold clean barrels are the same even with jacketed.

[geargnasher]

Cold clean barrels are the same even with jacketed.

So true, but it can be eliminated with cast boolits because they're less affected by cold, shrunken pipe syndrome than J-words. All you have to fuss with is bore surface condition. Of course it's not as easy as it sounds....[smilie=b:

Gear

[btroj]

I have that trouble with cold clean barrel, cold dirty barrel, pretty much any cold barrel with CR in that rifle. Run a few rounds thru it and all is good. Let the rifle sit and cool down, right back to throwing a few shots a bit.

I don't find it to be relevant for deer hunting. I am not going to notice a shot an inch out and larger diameter, heavier bullets seem to be less affected.

Like Gear said, finding a one size fits all lube isn't so easy if you want small groups at any temp. This is a caliber/bullet weight specific issue. Guys like 44man that don't believe in anything less than a 500 grain 50 cal bullet don't notice it much!

[nanuk]

wasn't SpeedGreen "Designed" for cold weather shooting?

[44man]

I have that trouble with cold clean barrel, cold dirty barrel, pretty much any cold barrel with CR in that rifle. Run a few rounds thru it and all is good. Let the rifle sit and cool down, right back to throwing a few shots a bit.

I don't find it to be relevant for deer hunting. I am not going to notice a shot an inch out and larger diameter, heavier bullets seem to be less affected.

Like Gear said, finding a one size fits all lube isn't so easy if you want small groups at any temp. This is a caliber/bullet weight specific issue. Guys like 44man that don't believe in anything less than a 500 grain 50 cal bullet don't notice it much!
Now that is funny! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:.
Felix is soft and sticky and is better the CR in cold weather. Yet heat does no harm either.
I feel any lube that needs a heater to lube with is too hard but CR is still a good lube, just better in summer.
My revolvers will not dump out a shot UNLESS THE GUN IS CLEAN and then it just takes one shot. Even the little .44 acts the same. [smilie=l:
Back when I shot big bore rifles with jacketed, .300 and up, I would only shoot 3 shots, then let the gun cool before the next two for a five shot group. Go away from the gun! Heat has a great affect. So does cold.
Your problem is also there with jacketed.
Try a softer lube, Felix is my best so far. Other lubes get too specific.

[btroj]

I have used a fair amount of Felix over the years. I went to CR in an attempt to get a lube that didn't leave such a mess in the Marlin 45 Colt actions. The huge chamber allows so much blow back that the action gunked up real quickly with Felix.
I am firmly in the "hard lubes aren't a great idea" camp. Soft and gooey is a good thing in a lube. makes them messier to store but it wipes off easily enough.
I really like the MML so far. seems to handle the heat as well as I do and works well in the winter too.

[Jailer]

I'm looking forward to making my first batch of MML this weekend. I finally got my micro crystalin wax that I was waiting for so I should have it done soon.

I'll probably sell a bit of the micro crystalin wax too since the smallest quantity blended waxes sold was 10lbs and I only needed a 1/2lb. :shock:

[famdoc2892]

Gear, you'll be happy to know I went ahead and loaded up the boolits, but vacation will keep me way from the range for a week or so. Looking forward to it!

Jailer, how much would it take to talk you out of a pound or two of your microwax? I held off my order because of the minimum order size! Shoot me a PM.

[rhbrink]

Me too Jailer I would buy a pound or two from you if you want to sell some.

Richard

[44man]

I have used a fair amount of Felix over the years. I went to CR in an attempt to get a lube that didn't leave such a mess in the Marlin 45 Colt actions. The huge chamber allows so much blow back that the action gunked up real quickly with Felix.
I am firmly in the "hard lubes aren't a great idea" camp. Soft and gooey is a good thing in a lube. makes them messier to store but it wipes off easily enough.
I really like the MML so far. seems to handle the heat as well as I do and works well in the winter too.
I do get lube on fired brass in my revolvers but I will not give up the accuracy. Good stuff can be DIRTY no doubt.
I did not know you were shooting a Marlin.
Keep us posted with results.

[btroj]

It isn't on the brass. It is all over in the action. The Marlin 45 Colt chambers are cut so dang oversized! Heavier loads expand the brass enough to prevent some of this blowback. Lower pressure loads make the gun look like I was shooting black powder using crisco for a lube!

I have somewhat decided that a good lube in handgun is inherently a bit dirty. Getting that thin, black, greasy feel on the gun tells me the lube is working. It wipes off easily too.

[geargnasher]

Segregate brass for the Marlin and only size the brass far enough to hold the boolit, meaning back the sizer die way off and decap by hand if necessary. If you have a Lee universal decapper die (or stem from one) and a Lee .45 Colt sizer, put the longer universal decapping stem in the sizer die so you can size and deprime in the same step without sizing the whole case.

Gear

[btroj]

I need to see of the huge chambers in my Blackhawk will let unsized brass from the Marlin fit.
I think Marlin and Ruger use the same huge reamers.

I haven't tried to partial size the brass. Need to get around to trying it soon. Maybe I will load some today.

And Lee decap die? You use that Lee trash? Wait, I have Lee dies. Dang.

[geargnasher]

Lee makes lots of good stuff. They also make some not-so-good stuff that makes it well worth the extra money to buy from other manufacturers. I recently started partial-sizing .45 Colt with an RCBS die to close the front 1/3 of the case down to .003" under boolit diameter on the inside, then expand it to .002" under, works like a champ. The only thing I don't like about the .45 Colt is the dimensional nightmare.

Gear

[Eutectic]

There are several bad dimensional 'mistakes' still in Saami specs and sadly the .45 Colt is one.
Several years ago I had two RCBS Carbide sizers for .45 Colt. So I lapped one out (What a job that is!!) to size just the body a couple thousandths under what my two guns bulged them out to. I then used the unlapped die like a neck sizer. It worked great! Just an extra step. I think Redding advertises a carbide die for .45 Colt that has two carbide rings in it that appears to do the same thing (Or similar?). Might be expensive?? But it would size brass better dimensionally, working the brass less like my two die setup..

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

OR a person could get an RCBS steel sizer die and lap the back 2/3 of it out to size the body of the brass to the least common denominator of the guns owned and the "neck" portion to give only the required boolit tension on the common boolit size used. Any way you do it it will still be a compromise if loading common ammo for multiple guns. I wish there were more .454 Casull leverguns available, or rather actions that could take the pressure (IF desired), that way a person could take advantage of the .45 Caliber in a version that SAAMI got right and load it to whatever level they wanted for their companion guns.

Gear