Carbide sizer die vs, steel die and lubing

[connecticut-yankee]

Just getting into rifle reloading - should I lubricate and get a steel resizer die or skip the lubing and get a carbide resizer???

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yankee,

Good to have you aboard. There is a lot of good info here and many people with years of good experience.

AS per your question. Unless something has changed that I haven't heard about, carbide dies are available only for cartridges such as standard cases like .38/.357, .44/44mag, .45acp etc, and NOT for bottle neck cartridges like .223, .308, 270, 30/06 etc, etc, etc.

So, unless you are using cases similar to those listed above, in a rifle, you will need to lube your bottle neck cases or stick them tight in the die during sizing.

There is a way to get the stuck cases out, but it is best avoided in the first place!!

As you are new to the reloading game, I'll offer to send you - or anyone - a document on proper bottle neck sizing die set up which address some common miss information published in some manufactures die set up instructions.

The document explains the problems and how/why to avoid them..

Send me a Personal Mail, "PM" with your personal "E" address and I'll send it your way.

AS said, lots of good info here and many people willing to help!

Keep em Coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yankee,

Fishhawk indicated that lubing is needed with carbide dies for handguns.

Well, some do and most don't.

For many years and thousands of cases, I have used Carbide dies and no lube.

It works and is the normally excepted way with these cartridges and dies.

As stated some do and some don't, so you'll need to pay your money and take your choice.

With the dies I use and the cases I use, 9mm, 38/357, 44special/44mag and 45acp there has simply been no need.

That is the reason I use carbide dies. If I needed to lube them I'd just use the tool steel dies such as required for bottle neck cartridges.

CDOC

[1hole]

"...skip the lubing and get a carbide resizer???"

Mistaken idea. So far as I know only .223 and .308 carbide dies are available and even they require lube. And a little lube on the various carbide handgun sizers helps a lot.

[M-Tecs]

In the straight wall pistol calibers carbide does not require lube. For tapered case like the 30 carbine light lube is still required. On carbide bottle neck cases like the .223 and the 308 lube is required. The bottle neck carbide dies are solid carbide in a steel die. The straight walled pistol cases have a carbide ring at the base. The carbide dies in .223 and 308 are around $150.00. The real benefit is the lack of wear for the high volume use. I run them on my Dillon 1050’S

From Dillon “For high volume users, such as commercial reloaders, law enforcement agencies, and high power or service rifle competitors, we also offer .223 and .308 die sets with a full-length carbide sizing die. Lubrication is still required, but the increased scratch resistance and die longevity of carbide are of great benefit to these groups of users.”

[afish4570]

Despite all the hype about not really necessary for pistol cals. I have found it easier and faster to lube with the spray lube made by Dillon or Hornady. Read the instructions a you will see what I mean. When you are sizing several hundred shells a little lube will require less effort and you will be less tired and more productive too. Just completed 700 + 40 S&W cases getting prepared for an IPSC match in a few weeks.....afish4570[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[UNIQUEDOT]

The only advantage carbide rifle dies have over steel dies is it prevents you from having to lube inside the case neck, but you still have to lube the outside as usual. The only carbide in the die is the expander button.

[Dale53]

I hate to be critical but there are some posts here that are incorrect.

Carbide dies for straight walled pistol cases do NOT require lube but some use it for easier sizing effort (but requires all cartridges cleaned after loading).

Limited calibers have carbide sizing dies available for CERTAIN bottle neck cases and THESE still require lubing but have greatly extended life for commercial users. These dies, contrary to the above, have carbide bodies (that's why they are SO expensive).

Third category - some manufacturers of steel dies for bottle neck cases offer carbide expander buttons (for sizing the inside of the neck) and these offer less effort and a better job (less stress on the case shoulders). More or less the same thing can be had by lightly lubing the inside of the case necks (use of powdered graphite means that you don't have to clean it off afterwards).

I have loaded several hundred thousands of cartridges and have not lubed straight wall cases when using carbide dies with excellent results. I don't fault those who do use lube with their carbide dies and straight wall cases - it's a perfectly valid CHOICE.

Over and out...
Dale53

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Dale 53,

You pretty much call it!

And, Like I said earlier whatever floats your boat.

However, though I may lag behind you in numbers, there is as you indicate no "need" to lube straight wall cases such as those used in the typical hand guns.

Go ahead if it floats you boat, and makes you feel better, it won't hurt and the extra cost will not likely brake the bank.

I do not shoot competition, and therefore a rather relaxed pace with my progressive does not produce a stress or tired factor some feel that non-lubing may produce, yet it still produces ammo far faster then I can use it.

So no need to go with the extra step/cost/time of lubing my straight cases, and should I be so lucky to ware out my carbide dies, I'll consider myself very lucky and buy another set if that is warrented at 95 - 100

I am interested in the apparent fact that there are a limited number of Carbide dies for bottle neck cartridges.

I had wondered why they were not available, considering cost of manufacturing to be the likely factor.

So, it is interesting to me to find that for those using great numbers of .223 or .308 rounds or commercial loaders there are carbide dies available to those willing to pay the cost.

First I'd heard of it.

Guess it proves that even Ol'Coots can still learn a thing or two. :bigsmyl2:

CDOC

[Dale53]

CDOC;
I hope I didn't come off as a "Forum Nazi", just thought it needed said for the newbies.

I no longer compete (but do still remember the lessons learned there) either. I had the benefit to shoot alongside some of the best competitors this world has seen. I also had the benefit of learning directly from some of the early reloading people like Fred Huntington, Ferris Pindell, etc. I try to pass it on (much as you do, I notice:mrgreen:). A good friend of mine who lived close to me was a high grade engineer (aviation and nuclear power) and became a commercial loader when he retired. He was MOST instructive (former multi-State Champion pistol shooter, too). If a person is around people of that caliber and keeps his eyes and ears open it's hard NOT to learn a thing or two...

Dale53

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Nope Dale, no problem here at least.

Even be'in an Ol'Coot I'm willing to learn if the info has a positive reason and result and not just "I think this is better cause that is the way I and everyone should do it."

Yep, if it floats folk's boat, go ahead and lube the cases while I don't and we will all get to the same place at about the same time, - the lubers - with a bit more time and cost and me with a touch less time and cost.

Can't remember back how far it was I bought my first carbide handgun dies. Bought them for one reason, have never used up a set yet, and have never had a reason to change my non-lubing ways.

If I still wanted to lube, I'd not paid the extra to buy the more costly carbide dies when I already had good steel dies.

Ol'Coots, and I wasn't so old way back then, are funny that way, but my boat is floating plenty high and no leaks yet. :D ;-)

CDOC

[Dale53]

>>>If I still wanted to lube, I'd not paid the extra to buy the more costly carbide dies when I already had good steel dies.<<<

That's me in a nutshell.

Dale53

[13Echo]

The only thing I have to add is that it is a good idea to clean your cases of grit and grime before sizing even if using carbide.

Jerry Liles

[afish4570]

The only thing I have to add is that it is a good idea to clean your cases of grit and grime before sizing even if using carbide.

Jerry Liles

My club has "dead" sand for the surface that is dusty and really sticks inside your brass. We all shoot and then pickup brass. After walking and stomping it into the sand I can't imagine not washing it. I am in the minority though.
My recipe for washing is simple. Depending on amount to wash. Place in a 5 gal bucket. Take garden hose and rinse off and drain in a large old colander. Refill bucket with warm water and alittle hand dish washing detergent and stir with a 3 or 4 ft. piece of 1x2 (firring strip). You can soak for awhile if you want. Stir and rinse with a garden hose. Pour back and forth between a spare bucket. Drain thru colander. Place in plastic shallow bins and place in sunlight to dry. Alternate is to put in to plastic gal. jugs and then put on furnace to dry. My old furnace is hot but not hot enough to melt plastic. Saves your tumbling media and prevents scratching your dies. Takes a few min. but to type this response up it takes about the same time .......afish4570:cbpour::cbpour:

[UNIQUEDOT]

These dies, contrary to the above, have carbide bodies (that's why they are SO expensive).

Well i just looked at Dillon's carbide bottleneck dies and sure enough they have two that have full length cabide inserts. I read in a manual once that carbide simply didn't work in bottleneck configurations and have assumed since that all carbide bottleneck dies were carbide buttons only. I assume the manual meant they didn't work because lube is still required.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I have seven Dillon SDB's sitting on my reloading bench. They are all for straight wall pistol cases, and none of them have ever seen a lubed case.

The 45 acp, 38 Super, and 38spl units have all loaded over 50,000 rounds each. This does not make me an expert, but it allows me to state an opinion based on years of experience.

Any bottleneck cartridge case dies are going to need a little lube.

Rich

[leadhead]

Don't try to size .30 carbine brass in a carbide die without lube.
It will stick in the die. I don't know why but they do.
Denny

[danielk]

Try sizing a 500 S&W in a carbide die without lube. I did one and it took so much force I've never done it again!!

[M-Tecs]

Don't try to size .30 carbine brass in a carbide die without lube.
It will stick in the die. I don't know why but they do.
Denny

30 carbine is a tapered case so it requires lube in both steel and carbide dies. In the carbine carbide die the carbide is full length not a ring at the base like straight wall cases.

[gunarea]

Hey Fellas
Here are a couple tips which may help.
A drop or two of liquid polish into the tumbling media will greatly help carbide straight wall dies do their job. Midway and Grafs both carry very good ones. It gives a noticably easier feel on the press handle. The polish will also give the cleaned brass a luster like new ammunition.
Lee makes collet dies for many bottleneck cartridges and these eliminate the need for case lube. Another advantage of these dies is, greatly reduced strain on case shoulders from pushing in and pulling out forces. However they are useless for neck sized only applications.
Reloading options available in this day and age are too great to ignore even by geezers like me.
Roy

[gester01]

Good info Roy
I'm new around here and this is the 1st time I've seen your ID. I like it!

[Slick Pilot]

30 carbine is a tapered case so it requires lube in both steel and carbide dies. In the carbine carbide die the carbide is full length not a ring at the base like straight wall cases.

I have sized hundreds of 30 carbine cases without lube and without any indication that a case wanted to get stuck.

Maybe I have just been lucky, but that is my observation.

[Artful]

Wow, what a diverse load of information.

IMHO,
Carbide dies for pistols are worth the money, Carbide expander balls in rifle dies are good too.

Lube on new cases is a very good idea in a carbide pistol die. I lube about every 5th or 6th case to make operations smooth on my dillon's when loading pistols and lube every case for rifles.

If you get your Lee collet die adjusted correctly it makes a nicely sized case, but can be a bit of a pain to get adjusted the first time you set it up.

30 carbine does like lube, but my dies take them down to close to factory spec's - if you had a tight chamber and loose die so it didn't have to work the cases much maybe you could get by without lube but not with my dies.