Short barrel revisit.

[44man]

I contacted Alliant powder about the 2" burn in the barrel. This is what I got from Ben.
I will have to side with you. All ball powder is not burned in 2". In some cartridges with certain powders, it may be, however in others that use large charge weights and slower burning powders, this is not the case. You win.
Ben
Alliant Powder Technical Service

[44MAG#1]

Popcorn popped and a supply of soft drinks prepared for the up coming show.

[44man]

Popcorn popped and a supply of soft drinks prepared for the up coming show.
More info coming from other powder makers, stay tuned.
Facts, not a gun writers folly and those that repeat.
I really believe over 200 gr of powder burns in 2" in the .50 BMG! Yeah, sure.
Those here need more truth and common sense.
Why are there not powders from Bullseye to the .50 BMG powders not used if all ignite in the brass? Why not use Bullseye in the BMG? Can you imagine the chamber pressure from Bullseye? It does not matter according to some experts because 200 gr of slow powder also goes off in the brass.
Can anyone answer why we just don't need ONE powder? Why are all cartridges different sizes?
You will never prove me wrong. You will never prove real experts wrong, you will never prove powder makers wrong.
I never believed any one that loads ammo ever believed that all powders go off right now. Those that load have a lot of brains.

[9.3X62AL]

I think the more valid question could be......."For how long does the pressure impulse continue to accellerate the bullet efficiently?" I have read material that indicates the 22 LR largely "coasts" after 18" or so of barrel length, and can even be slowed by over-length barrels.

For my own part, barrel length in handguns is dictated far more by application than by ballistic concerns. The sidearm is already a big compromise between portability and striking energy, and this compromise favors portability. I have no clue which powder will produce better results in my 2.5" Model 19, and given that the Federal 125 grain FBI-blessed K-Frame Eaters are now the coin of the realm where my CWP gets blessed, the 4" 686 will likely be my only 357 Magnum carry gun from here on out. The snub 19 might be trade bait soon.

[TCTex]

Can anyone answer why we just don't need ONE powder?

Well, how is this?


Cartridge capacity and selected bullet weight play a big role in optimizing a propellant. You could put blue dot in a 30-06 case but it wouldn’t be my first choice. LOL

In my feeble understanding, selecting a powder with a proper burning rate for your cartridge is critical. It also maximizes the rounds potential and then utilize the gasses of the powder to your advantage. Or the pressure that the powder creates when ignited if you will.


“A powder may burn at different rates in a 308 Winchester as compared to a 243 Winchester of as compared to a 358 Winchester, even though each of these cartridges has the same approximate volume. In addition, burning rate intervals can also be a variable.” Hornady Handbook 6th edition page 38.


“Propellant Versus Case Volume:
Generally, powders that give the best ballistic uniformity and accuracy are often those that nearly fill the case to the base of the bullet. Ideally, the reloader should choose a load that fills the case to at least 90% of capacity. This insures that powder positioning in the case will not cause substantial changes in the ballistics. It is not always possible to fill up 90% of case volume. However, when it can be done this is often port of a knowledgeable reloaders approach to powder selection.” Lyman 48th Edition page 63.


Here is something we often misinterpret.
“Like any technical pursuit, handloading has its own language. Included in that are a lot of catch phrases that are sure to be strewn through any conversation between one or more devotees. “Pressure” is one term that comes up a lot with people who create their own ammunition. But, it’s often misunderstood. We speak of pressure as a bad thing, but without it our bullets wouldn’t fly. Pressure is what forces them down the barrel and out into the wide world of free flight. Without pressure they would just continue to sit, fat, happy and content, inside the case neck.

In simple terms, the higher the pressure the harder it will push on the base of the bullet and the faster it will make that bullet go because there is a direct correlation between pressure levels and velocity. Of course, a lot of factors come into play and a 40-grain .22 bullet with the same pressure as a 300-grain .375 bullet is not going to have the same muzzle velocity. But, with all being equal, on any given bullet the higher the pressure the higher the velocity.” Lyman 48thEdition page 96.


I am posting quotes from reloading manuals so it isn’t “my word” or “my interpretation” of what was written.


Duane






Why are all cartridges different sizes?

Because we don't like to drive Ford Trucks... LOL Different platforms will change the characteristic "needs" for each cartridge design...


Both articles goes on to list other variables of pressure including the type and construction of firearm as well as case design. FWIW.





You will never prove me wrong.
My friend, that should be the last reason anyone is here on this forum!!!!!! We should all be here with an open mind to learn IMHO!!!

On the flip side of that coin, if a person comes to a wonderful sight like this one, which has a wealth of knowledge and experience, one is also obliged to keep an open mind and learn as well.


I never believed any one that loads ammo ever believed that all powders go off right now. Those that load have a lot of brains.

“Powder combustion sets off the chain of events that propel a bullet out of the barrel of a firearm and into its trajectory . Gases-the products of combustion-expand rapidly within the cartridge case, pushing it against the breach and chamber walls and pushing the bullet forward. Hornady Handbook 6th edition page 68.

Your quote from Mr. Ben stated that a powder could burn within the parameters of a 2 in barrel, one just has to be selective when choosing a powder…

[44man]

I think the more valid question could be......."For how long does the pressure impulse continue to accellerate the bullet efficiently?" I have read material that indicates the 22 LR largely "coasts" after 18" or so of barrel length, and can even be slowed by over-length barrels.

For my own part, barrel length in handguns is dictated far more by application than by ballistic concerns. The sidearm is already a big compromise between portability and striking energy, and this compromise favors portability. I have no clue which powder will produce better results in my 2.5" Model 19, and given that the Federal 125 grain FBI-blessed K-Frame Eaters are now the coin of the realm where my CWP gets blessed, the 4" 686 will likely be my only 357 Magnum carry gun from here on out. The snub 19 might be trade bait soon.
That is true, the .22 is at it's limit at 16". After that it slows.
You need to understand that the punch all at once is not what propels a boolit. You need a constant push.

[TCTex]

You will never prove me wrong. You will never prove real experts wrong, you will never prove powder makers wrong.

Those are strong words... [smilie=s: I don't have to tell you there are ALWAYS exeptions to the rules... LOL :Fire:

You your self have played around with "experiments" that the experts said wouldn't work...


It sounds strange to use Varget in the little cases like the BR. I called Hodgdon about a load and they told me it would not work. I experimented and it is the only powder that works with a light bullet in the slow twist. 32.5 gr gives me 2175 fps with a 120 gr bullet with superb accuracy out of a 10" barrel. The gun stays clean, no unburned powder. Not a single other powder will shoot 120 bullets from this gun. I then tried it in my 10" 7R and it also works perfect.
Varget is a powder that switches roles to a fast powder.

[44MAG#1]

I have a question. (44man saw this coming I know) what does any of this have to do with the grand scheme of things.
I would say that 90 percent of people on here could care from very little to not caring at all about this.
One chooses a powder that one likes, they use it and they shoot in in the barrel lenght they like.
What is this dog and pony show really going to solve for the majority of people on here except to see a good show?

2 questions: Who really cares about all this. And if they do is it going to change their reloading life in big way?

I would be very curious about the answers to my 2 questions.

[paul h]

I swiped this from Hornady's website:

http://www.hornady.com/assets/templates/site/images/superformance_bgchart.JPG

A bullet is accellerated by the area of the pressure/time curve. The more area under the curve, the greater the accelleration. The physical height of the pressure curve is limited by the physical strength of the gun. The amount of time the bullet can be accelerated is determined by the length of the barrel.

A faster powder reaches peak pressure faster, but the pressure drops off faster. If you have a short barrel, i.e. not much time in the barrel for the bullet to accellerate, then the advantage of a slower powder that has more area to the right of the peak is lost.

Whether or not the powder is all burned in the time the bullet spends in the barrel is mute, it is area under the curve that does the work.

[subsonic]

If I recall, the original question was about how much velocity was lost when shortening the barrel on a .500 S&W.

Then we talked about how/when powder "burns" and how long it takes and whether the barrel changes how much powder is "burned".

I think the real question, or the question that makes sense, is "Should you use a faster powder in a shorter barrel?" or "Do you gain anything by using a faster powder than you would use in a longer barrel?".

You can try this yourself. Get some H110, Unique, and maybe something fast like Bullseye. Snatch up your snubby magnum revolver and concoct max book loads with each powder and keep everything else the same. Shoot over a chronograph and see what happens. You need to use a caliber that runs at enough pressure for H110 to work right. .38spl need not apply - as the max pressures are too low for H110.

I've done it and can tell you that H110 wins and was still the most accurate load in my gun, but I liked AA9 better yet in my ~2" .357s.

[bigboredad]

I believe the question was not a question but a blanket statement that the 2or 4 in smith .500 makes no sense and is worthless.

[44man]

I believe the question was not a question but a blanket statement that the 2or 4 in smith .500 makes no sense and is worthless.
Not worthless, just not efficient. Faster powder is needed. Faster powder does not need as large a case.
Now admit it, would you make a .458 with a 2" barrel? WHY NOT?

[jwp475]

If I recall, the original question was about how much velocity was lost when shortening the barrel on a .500 S&W.

Then we talked about how/when powder "burns" and how long it takes and whether the barrel changes how much powder is "burned".

I think the real question, or the question that makes sense, is "Should you use a faster powder in a shorter barrel?" or "Do you gain anything by using a faster powder than you would use in a longer barrel?".

You can try this yourself. Get some H110, Unique, and maybe something fast like Bullseye. Snatch up your snubby magnum revolver and concoct max book loads with each powder and keep everything else the same. Shoot over a chronograph and see what happens. You need to use a caliber that runs at enough pressure for H110 to work right. .38spl need not apply - as the max pressures are too low for H110.

I've done it and can tell you that H110 wins and was still the most accurate load in my gun, but I liked AA9 better yet in my ~2" .357s.




Exactly, spot on. You are 100 perecent correct

[bigboredad]

Not worthless, just not efficient. Faster powder is needed. Faster powder does not need as large a case.
Now admit it, would you make a .458 with a 2" barrel? WHY NOT?

Now why would do that when the smith .500 already. available that statement makes no sense and yes I can lift a transmission over my head so I probably don't need a .500

[RobS]

Unburt powder in the barrel or partically and then there is the powder that makes it way on the bench in which a person shoots that marks some proof of evidence. As an example to short barrels and slow burn powders: a snub nose revolver in the magnum realm i.e. 44 mag can be loaded with slow powders such as H110 and yes they do ignite, go boom and the bullet makes way down the barrel additionally there is the huge flame ball(possibly another indicator [smilie=1:). Now a person could go farther and put out a white sheet on the ground 8 or so feet from the muzzle and look at the unburnt powder that was shot out infront of the muzzle. A person could then try the same load in a 7.5 in barrel and not see the powder on the sheet and not have the extreme light show. Is it that hard to come to a conclusion.........really is it??? As to velocity, well a good chronograph would be sufficient to tell the truth I suppose.




More info coming from other powder makers, stay tuned.
Facts, not a gun writers folly and those that repeat.
I really believe over 200 gr of powder burns in 2" in the .50 BMG! Yeah, sure.
Those here need more truth and common sense.
Why are there not powders from Bullseye to the .50 BMG powders not used if all ignite in the brass? Why not use Bullseye in the BMG? Can you imagine the chamber pressure from Bullseye? It does not matter according to some experts because 200 gr of slow powder also goes off in the brass.
Can anyone answer why we just don't need ONE powder? Why are all cartridges different sizes?
You will never prove me wrong. You will never prove real experts wrong, you will never prove powder makers wrong.
I never believed any one that loads ammo ever believed that all powders go off right now. Those that load have a lot of brains.

[TCTex]

Grab a “TC reloading book” and compare 10in and 14in barrel velocities. As a generally rule of thumb, the powder that is the top performer in one length is the top performer in another. FWIW…
In addition, Hodgdon has also told me that the top performing powder “A” in let’s say a 24in 308 Win barrel will also be the top performing powder in a 15in 308 Win, or a 10in 308… Is a 10in 308 Win a efficient cartridge, not really IMHO…

Second, I doubt a charging bear at 8ft would be able to notice the difference in vel. It would be funny though if it stood up and insulted you for not using at least a 6in barrel next time for your quarry… LOL

44man, Do you have any comments on post #7? I would like one please sir.

[9.3X62AL]

These sorts of questions can be queried in a lot of differing directions.

One line of question that has interested me has been the performance differences between 4" and 6" barrels of rimfire and centerfire revolvers. These are the barrel lengths most favored by a majority of revolver shooters. My own chronography over a lot of years has shown that on average the 33% boost in barrel length gains about a 10% gain in velocity, load for load. I didn't (and won't) isolate this factor to powder types, and the averaged overall results such as they are are enough for me.

My rather eclectic set of revolvers has about twice as many 6" examples as it has 4" critters. There are 4 revos with 5" tubes, and a couple with 7.5" too. If holsters to fit them weren't so bleeping hard to locate, the 5" length might be the single-best for general usage. I tend toward 4" for CCW and the longer barrels for open carry and hunting, to take advantage of the sight radius advantage offered by the longer barrels. I've knocked the daylights outta jackrabbits and finished a deer with my 686 x 4", but it isn't the machine my Bisley Blackhawk x 357 can be with its 7.5" barrel. #358156s at 1500 FPS are easy work in that platform.

The question of "which powder for which barrel length" doesn't haunt me.

[jwp475]

Here is an article that explains muzzle flash.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-090.htm

Muzzle Flash
by Tony DiGiulian
Updated 12 September 2006



When a gun fires, only about 30% of the chemical energy released from the propellant is converted into the useful kinetic energy of actually moving the projectile down the barrel. The remaining energy is primarily contained in the propellant gas-particle mixture that escapes from the muzzle of the gun in the few milliseconds before and after shot ejection. A significant portion of this remaining energy is dissipated in the bright "muzzle flash" seen when the gun fires.

This flash consists of at least the following five components:

1) Muzzle Glow
2) Primary Flash
3) Intermediate Flash
4) Secondary Flash
5) Sparks

1) Muzzle Glow is usually a reddish white glow or tongue of flame at the muzzle that appears just prior to shot ejection and persists after shot ejection until the chamber pressure drops significantly. The initial glow is usually the result of hot, highly compressed gases (unburned propellants) leaking past the projectile driving band and is brightest in a worn gun. These gasses are hot enough to emit radiation in the visible light band. A "Cold Gun" with its lubricated barrel generally shows less muzzle glow than does a "Hot Gun" with its expanded barrel.

2) Primary Flash occurs after the projectile has exited the muzzle and is caused by those propellant gases exiting the muzzle behind the projectile. These are hot enough to emit large amounts of visible radiation but cool rapidly as they expand away from the muzzle.

3) Intermediate Flash consists of a reddish disc, slightly dished towards the gun, which appears about three inches (7.5 cm) from the muzzle of a small-caliber weapon and about 20-25 calibers from the muzzle for larger caliber weapons. Intermediate Flash occurs at the time of shot ejection and persists until the chamber pressure drops. It is brightest at the edge nearest the gun and gradually fades as the distance from the muzzle increases. This flash is due to a Mach shock wave created by the escaping gasses and projectile which, with its attendant pressure rise, causes the propellant gases to attain a temperature almost equal to the chamber temperature and so become self-luminescent.

4) Secondary Flash appears beyond the zone of the intermediate flash and is a rather ragged vortex of yellowish white flame. This is a result of the ignition of the combustible mixture of propellant gases and atmospheric oxygen caused by the turbulent mixing occurring at the boundary of the gas jet as it leaves the muzzle. The ignition of this mixture would appear to be initiated by its exposure to the high temperature of the intermediate flash.

5) Sparks are a common feature of the flash for small arms. These can arise from the ejection of incompletely burnt powder particles or by the ejection of white-hot acid or metallic particles. The former can be crystals of potassium salts if the powder is a "flashless" one while the latter can be the residual fragments of the metallic components of the cap composition or fragments of burning metal from the bullet jacket or driving bands.

Of these five components, the intermediate and secondary flash are the greatest contributors to muzzle flash. Most of the radiated energy occurs during the secondary flash and this can be greatly reduced by attaching a flash reducing device to the gun muzzle. These are commonly known as "Flash Suppressors" and appear on many military-style small arms and automatic weapons. These attachments act by modifying the gas glow pattern such that there is no region or a greatly reduced region in which the inflammable mixture of air and muzzle gases is sufficiently hot enough to ignite. It should be realized that there are other kinds of Flash Suppressors which do not modify the gas flow patterns in this manner but instead work by directing part of the muzzle gasses away from the shooter. These kinds of Flash Suppressors and the simpler "Flash Hider" muzzle attachments are intended primarily to reduce or block the muzzle flash from the vision of the shooter in order to maintain his night vision, they do little to reduce the size of the flash itself.

[44man]

I posted because it is not true that all powder is burned quickly.
Nothing to do with what gun you prefer or how it works for you.
The initial argument was that all powder is burned in 2", I know it is not true but was not believed so I went to experts to define it.
Fact is more important then an erroneous assumption, promulgated by some gun writer most likely shooting a .38 with Bullseye.
To load your own ammunition means you need an understanding of every component.
A fast powder can actually be gone before boolit exit from the brass but to fill a huge case with slow powder is different. If it all lit off suddenly, it will take your gun apart.
I can not advocate false information or promote it. A .500 S&W from a 4" barrel can not be compared to a long barreled rifle with other products of burning exiting the muzzle.
The huge flash from the short .500 is excess powder burning outside the barrel, powder not used to propel the boolit. Shoot the .500 from a 24" barrel and see how much more velocity you get.
Believe what you want but I will only present facts as I get them.
Better yet, ask those that know.

[44MAG#1]

Still got a lot of popcorn and Iced tea now.

Lets see the show.

[44man]

Still got a lot of popcorn and Iced tea now.

Lets see the show.
No show. You can also research. You do not have to believe me, never said you have to.
Is this important? On a scale of 1 to 10, maybe a 2. But it is still based on fact, not a rabbit from a hat.

[TCTex]

First,
I posted my comment because you blatantly made the statement of:

You will never prove me wrong. You will never prove real experts wrong, you will never prove powder makers wrong.
(Religious statement, read at your own accord.)
It is the way it is stated. Do you realize how harshly and blunt that statement is made? Are you Sinless? Can you walk on water? I am sorry, but if Jesus Christ didn’t need to redeem of us of our sins than you could be perfect. But we have been saved by the blood of the lamb so you are imperfect my friend, just like the rest of us on this wonderful forum, and can make a mistake. Ergo, you can be proven wrong. Just look at how many times I have had to edit a post. I make mistakes all the time. And let’s not even talk about spelling/grammer…

However, you yourself have “proved” the experts wrong:


It sounds strange to use Varget in the little cases like the BR. I called Hodgdon about a load and they told me it would not work. I experimented and it is the only powder that works with a light bullet in the slow twist. 32.5 gr gives me 2175 fps with a 120 gr bullet with superb accuracy out of a 10" barrel. The gun stays clean, no unburned powder. Not a single other powder will shoot 120 bullets from this gun. I then tried it in my 10" 7R and it also works perfect.
Varget is a powder that switches roles to a fast powder.



Believe what you want but I will only present facts as I get them.
Better yet, ask those that know.
Again, you yourself have proven them wrong. Who do you believe? It is like you pick and choice what you believe and when to do it and from whom…
It is like picking and choosing what you want to believe out of the Bible. You can’t erase certain passages and take others out of context…

That kind of makes the first quote here questionable IMHO.

(I am adding an edit here because I feel like I am going to get pinged on this comment. So here is my explanation:

In post “A” you talked to Hodgdon, gathered the info you wanted, totally disregarded said info, and proved a powder co. wrong. In post “B” you asked Alliant a question and posted the answer here, (note, you didn’t post the question and that actually could have helped your argument! Just a bit of friendly advice for next time.) So IMHO, you are using info from “experts” how and when it suits you.

End of edit)

(Religious statement over…)


Second, I answered your question about why we need more than one powder. If you don’t understand the quotes I used from the reloading manuals let me know. Remember, we are all here to learn!!!
That is actually a big part of this question. You don’t fully show a comprehension here why we need more than one powder. You understand burn rates, but you don’t understand the difference when fired in a case. You judge a powder by the reside in the barrel. And you yourself have told me multiple times that you don’t use a chronograph until all of you load-work has been completed. That tells me you don’t know the velocity differences in the powders and the burn rates effect on said velocity…

Third, of course not all the powder out of a 30-06 is going to be burned in 2in. My question is, and giving you the benefit of the doubt, how was the question stated to Mr. Ben? Remember the answer is only as good as the question asked.
However, Mr. Ben did state that some powders in the right conditions could be burned in 2in. But you also have to ask yourself, “how will they perform.” From the responses, I am gathering that some users here would rather use a powder that isn’t as "efficient" and is a higher performer.

Forth,


As for a clean barrel, I know the difference in what you are talking about. It is like red dot and green dot in a shot gun. Dad likes green dot because it doesn’t kick as much, but it is a dirtier powder. He will shot around or two of red dot to clean out the barrel a little after a shooting session, but when we get home there is still powder residue down the barrel when we clean them. Even if you shoot one shot of red dot out of a clean gun it is still going to have powder residue.

Point in fact. (Don’t try this at home kids.) Pick your favorite powder and pour some on the concrete and light it with a really long match stick… LOL Pick a powder it doesn’t matter. You will have powder residue on the concrete. (It is cool to watch how different powders burn though… ) Just like when you burn wood in a fireplace the combustion process doesn’t complete burn the wood, you have ashes. In the chemical conversion process you are going to have a byproduct besides gas.

Don’t judge a powder by what it leaves in the barrel. I have been learning that some powders are dirtier than others. LOL But also EVERY powder is going to have residue left in the barrel.
I am not an expert, I can’t walk on water so try it for yourself. Run a wet patch down your favorite clean gun after you shoot it once. That patch is going to have some residue on it.

Duane

Ps, this is a long post and from my experience, not all the users are going to read it… LOL

[bigboredad]

My test was with the 8 3/8" and the 4" (really 3")500s&w..the load was a 400gr GC wfn cast. It chronoed at 1806fps from the 8" and 1485fps from the 3"...

Barrel length is a funny subject with pistols. Seems everyone thinks you need the barrel to utilize powder. The barrel length will give you more power (speed), but will Not burn more pistol powder.


I learned something at the Linebaugh seminar from the ballistic tech that came to the seminar with all of his computer charts. Much to the disbelief of lots of guys that had theories figured out (John himself said "What??")

The charts showed us right there in black-and-white that everything that is going to happen to build pressure, happens BEFORE the boolit breaks the crimp.

The instant the boolit breaks the crimp the dynamics of case capacity change and the pressure build stops ...thus ending the burn spike...any powder that burns after that takes place, is just on fire and really does no more to assist the boolit on it's way.

If that intial pressure and gas stays behind the boolit longer (longer barrel=more time) you can get more room/time to get the boolit moving faster but you Do Not get a better/longer/more powder burn.
__________________
Custom Gun Leather and Cowboy Gear.

this explains it quite well and on a level just about anyone should be able to understand

[jwp475]

:drinks:

My test was with the 8 3/8" and the 4" (really 3")500s&w..the load was a 400gr GC wfn cast. It chronoed at 1806fps from the 8" and 1485fps from the 3"...

Barrel length is a funny subject with pistols. Seems everyone thinks you need the barrel to utilize powder. The barrel length will give you more power (speed), but will Not burn more pistol powder.


I learned something at the Linebaugh seminar from the ballistic tech that came to the seminar with all of his computer charts. Much to the disbelief of lots of guys that had theories figured out (John himself said "What??")

The charts showed us right there in black-and-white that everything that is going to happen to build pressure, happens BEFORE the boolit breaks the crimp.

The instant the boolit breaks the crimp the dynamics of case capacity change and the pressure build stops ...thus ending the burn spike...any powder that burns after that takes place, is just on fire and really does no more to assist the boolit on it's way.

If that intial pressure and gas stays behind the boolit longer (longer barrel=more time) you can get more room/time to get the boolit moving faster but you Do Not get a better/longer/more powder burn.
__________________
Custom Gun Leather and Cowboy Gear.

this explains it quite well and on a level just about anyone should be able to understand



Excellent post from some one that knows what he is talking about.
Guys this post is 100% correct


:drinks:

[bigboredad]

:drinks:



Excellent post from some one that knows what he is talking about.
Guys this post is 100% correct


:drinks:

this is post #26 from the thread 500 smith and wesson barrel length.

Really makes me wonder why there is this thread. nowhere did it say the powder burns in the first 2 inches. This has been nothing but a waste of time and a argument just for the sake of arguing. Why the mods continue to allow this B.S. is beyond me.

[felix]

Yep, 100 percent correct with a 100 percent overload condition. In fact, projectile might not move at all! ... felix

[TCTex]

Why the mods continue to allow this B.S. is beyond me.

I made my argument because they don’t. In fact, I grew some “intestinal fortitude” in “MY” thread and asked Jim to stop the BS. Then a Moderator chewed on me! Go figure.

Heavy for caliber 460 project take 2 – Page 3 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=157715&page=3)

[44man]

I received mail from Hodgdon and just can not repeat it because of what he said that will anger posters.
He said if you want the truth to call him at 800-622-4366. Talk to Mike daly.
I can only say he went off about arguing with internet idiots. I was surprised with his response.
There you go, find out for yourselves.
Next you need to talk to Veral Smith. I also have his information.
TCTex, it is because the mods are not stupid and believe facts. They are a tribute to this site. Personal stuff is not allowed and I have walked a thin line myself. But I never lie either. I really do go look for truth before I post, not from a gun rag but from experts.
Nobody knows more about powder then those that make it or sell it.
You are free to talk to them. They are great people. You are OK too but research first.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think its more a case of what gives best results then if ALL the powder burns. My 3 and 4 inch 44mags still give there highest velocitys with powders like 110 and aa9 if you stick within the safe pressure limits of the cartridge and ive had many cases where 4 inch guns gave better velocitys then the same load in 6 inch guns so im guessing if not all of it a good ammount is sure being burned. bottom line is anyone that knows handgun hunting will tell you that a 100 fps in a handgun isnt buying you much. Id gladly give up a 100 fps to not have to tote around a gun that about should have wheels on it. Personaly i chuckle at guys claiming to be handgun hunter hauling aroud a 10 inch handgun with a scope or dot sight on it. What you have is a rifle without a stock! You couldnt give me a handgun with a barrel longer then 5.5 inch. Might as well quit fooling yourself and grab a bolt action rifle ;)

[44man]

I think its more a case of what gives best results then if ALL the powder burns. My 3 and 4 inch 44mags still give there highest velocitys with powders like 110 and aa9 if you stick within the safe pressure limits of the cartridge and ive had many cases where 4 inch guns gave better velocitys then the same load in 6 inch guns so im guessing if not all of it a good ammount is sure being burned. bottom line is anyone that knows handgun hunting will tell you that a 100 fps in a handgun isnt buying you much. Id gladly give up a 100 fps to not have to tote around a gun that about should have wheels on it. Personaly i chuckle at guys claiming to be handgun hunter hauling aroud a 10 inch handgun with a scope or dot sight on it. What you have is a rifle without a stock! You couldnt give me a handgun with a barrel longer then 5.5 inch. Might as well quit fooling yourself and grab a bolt action rifle ;)
True and slow powders are still the best with large calibers. Even if all does not burn, it is still better.
It is saying 38 to 47 gr of powder is all gone in 2" from a .500 that is wrong. 4" is a stretch and it will still be a BOMB.
Initial chamber pressure has nothing to do with it. Peak pressure does not mean all powder is gone. As it burns down the bore it maintains pressure over length.
A .300 Weatherby has the same breech pressure as some of our revolvers with many, many more times the powder amount. Did it all go off at once? If it did, you would be in intensive care.

[TCTex]

Jim,

First, I have asked you several question on multiple posts and threads and you have yet to answer them sir. Why not????
In fact you have been notorious for changing the subject and not answering questions…

Second, I asked you to stop in my thread, go back in read it. You didn’t stop the BS. Too many times on this forum you think if someone isn't doing "anything" your way they are wrong. Let’s face it. You made it clear in this thread that you are right and can’t be proven wrong. (Look at post 22 in this thread…)
Heavy for claiber 460 page two post 28 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=157715&page=2)

In fact, go back and read it, I told the moderator off and received nothing but praise in PM’s, Texts, and phone calls and everyone said the moderator was out of line and I handled myself well. In fact, they praised me for standing up to you and not quivering in the corner in fear. Honestly, I have been told that if I have done half the things you have I would have been kicked off already. Why is that? why is there a double standard!!!! Is it because you have 1200 posts in I have 100?
Heavy for caliber 460 post 48 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=157715&page=3)

You wouldn’t stop the BS and called others on THIS forum liars in my "Heavy for caliber 460" thread. It is all there go back and read it!
If fact Whiterabbit finally posted great info and made you look like an idiot.
Use the link above...

Yes, you kept saying my “project” couldn’t and shouldn’t be done, yet you forgot about this post!
Heavy for caliber 460 project (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=153600)
I think its content speaks for itself…



Third, the 500 S&W thread:

You have several unanswered questions that have asked! I know, I asked them!!
(PS, I answered several items in post 73.)
500 S&W barrel length (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=155936&page=4)
You are wrong and I told you why on multiple issues... Go back and read it...




Primers… nuff said…
Primers... (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=144682&highlight=primers&page=5)



I also REALLY bothers me that people can present information that they know is factual and you don’t believe them!
500 JRH (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=154309&page=3)
You wouldn’t even listen to Whitworth…

In fact, you went on a tangent in post 51 why you finely realized you were wrong… Look at the other users responses all threw the thread…




Honestly, have you read anything I have posted? Go back and read post 22 here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are a hypocrite as far as I am concerned... I gave my reasons above...
You owe the users on this sight an accounting for those actions as far as I am concerned…

I really do go look for truth before I post, not from a gun rag but from experts.

Ya, look at post 22 again…




I have asked you several questions IN THIS THREAD you have yet to answer. I think it important enough to state it twice. I have even been PM’ed by several people indicating you don’t want to answer my questions.



Back on subject

I JUST CALLED HODGDON!! Just like you told me to.

Did you read my post above? You can manipulate any question you want to get the answer you are looking for. With out the question posted, your answer can mean nothing...

After asking the questions I did about the subject at hand I am calling BS…

I just can’t trust anything you say right now… Look at post 22 again. Let’s face it, If you will not even listen to Whitworth who will you listen to???

[TCTex]

Not worthless, just not efficient. Faster powder is needed…


...A fast powder can actually be gone before boolit exit from the brass but to fill a huge case with slow powder is different...


True and slow powders are still the best with large calibers. Even if all does not burn, it is still better.


Ok, whay am I missing here? Can someone enlighten me please?

Duane

[ombesb]

Not sure I want to get in this dog fight, but I have noticed that with a very fast powder only my cylinder gets hot and the barrel just barely warm. Switched to slower powders and then the cyl and barrel were both hot..... after a longer strings of shots in both cases.

[44man]

First, I answer ALL questions to the best of my ability. The problem is many read around to try to enforce their belief. I answer in a general sense.
Fast powder against slow is easy. fast is gone faster but does more damage to a boolit so a slow powder is better. Even if not all burned in a short distance, it is easier on a boolit. What do you prefer, a boolit at speed into the cone or a boolit with a more gentile start? Slow powder in a short barrel is still easier on the boolit. Fast powder in a short barrel can exceed slow powder initial pressure and velocity but to what advantage?
Heavy for caliber is based on twist and velocity match. You never proved too heavy shoots good. I did with sideways hits at 50 yards.
You called Hodgdon but did not say what they told you, were you proven wrong?
You get personal and scream with large print. That is not my way, I look at stuff first, then respond in an easy manor. If I am ever wrong, I will admit it but I go much farther then most to find facts. I never believe another poster at any site. I go to experts.
Primers? Bring your .44 here to shoot and I will tell you what primers were used----YES I CAN. Then I will go to the the ammo maker to show you. You will not believe the maker to dispute me.
I will never, ever talk to a moderator about anyone. You might be a person that needs straight info and needs to relax. I hold nothing against you. E mail me or PM me. We can talk.

[44man]

Not sure I want to get in this dog fight, but I have noticed that with a very fast powder only my cylinder gets hot and the barrel just barely warm. Switched to slower powders and then the cyl and barrel were both hot..... after a longer strings of shots in both cases.
Yes, powder burning in the barrel.
You notice stuff, very good.

[TCTex]

Look, I have a life and I don’t have the time to rebuttal again. I can tell from your response that didn’t learn a thing from the 460 thread. (or this thread IMHO…)



You still have a lot of unanswered questions that you are choosing not to answer…



I have told you before, I shoot the primers that the most accurate out of my barrel, regardless of make and type… My point wasn’t what primer we should shoot, it was your domineer in that thread and the 500JRH thread… (again you missed the point.)



I haven’t had a single conversation here with a moderator BTW, that is except for the public on listed above.




You called Hodgdon but did not say what they told you, were you proven wrong?
No, I wasn't... however it was a verbal conversation in which I have nothing to prove what was said. I am going to make this a :takinWiz: match over something stupid because It was a phone call.



I have spent a bit of time on the phone with a couple of users this morning. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I do not wish to contact you at this time.




Duane

[44man]

But you can if you see I am not against you. Talk to me, I will answer to the best i can. I am not the bottom line but will never pool wool over your eyes.

[TCTex]

First, I have asked you several question on multiple posts and threads and you have yet to answer them sir. Why not????
In fact you have been notorious for changing the subject and not answering questions…


You still have a lot of unanswered questions that you are choosing not to answer…

With the greatest respect and admiration, you still will not answer my questions here on the forum…



But you can if you see I am not against you. Talk to me, I will answer to the best i can. I am not the bottom line but will never pool wool over your eyes.


Not too be hurtful, but what about this statement?



You will never prove me wrong. You will never prove real experts wrong, you will never prove powder makers wrong.

It sounds very contrary to the one just made.

V/R

Duane

[jwp475]

I called Hogdon and my question went like this, Is it true or not true that all of the powder that is going to burn to accerate the bullet is complete with in the first few inches? Answer " yes that is true"

Al one has to do is look at the pressure curve



And while the following chart doesn't depict ignition and/or burn rate, it show's peak pressure against barrel length (it starts with 2.0" to account for the cartridge; all measurements taken from the bolt face).

http://varmintal.com/6ppc-pressure.png




This was posted on Single Action . com

[Any Cal.]

Not trying to take sides in anything personal, but the ideas presented here had me awake thinking last night. Here are my thoughts, feel free to explain why you think they are right or wrong.

If pressure peaked before the bullet broke the crimp, it means that the crimp could hold magnum pressures. That means that .38 Special could not exist, because the bullet could hold 35K psi before moving, and .38 could not produce it.

If pressure peaked before the bullet broke the crimp, then light and heavy bullets would not need different powder charge weights, because they could develop nearly equal pressure before the bullet moved. The difference in weight would be a non issue.

If powder burning in the barrel did not contribute to velocity, then once again, light and heavy bullets could use the same powder charge, since powders wouldn't have to chase the bullet down the barrel.

Why is there a difference in velocity using mag primers? Why is there a difference in pressure? It isn't because the bullet stays in place until the powder reaches its max pressure.

What I expect is more likely, is that the majority of the powder BEGINS burning before the bullet leaves the case mouth, and that the speed of the burn helps dictate the final velocity of the bullet. Any expansion of gas behind the bullet will keep pressure higher, so any extended burn has to help. If nothing else, extended powder burn will keep temps higher, which would help velocity.

If there is a pressure trace showing max pressure after <1" of bullet travel using a slow powder, I would like to see it, as it means my thinking has been wrong for a long time.

[Any Cal.]

I called Hogdon and my question went like this, Is it true or not true that all of the powder that is going to burn to accerate the bullet is complete with in the first few inches? Answer " yes that is true"

Al one has to do is look at the pressure curve





This was posted on Single Action . com

That graph shows peak pressure happening after the bullet has moved 4" down the barrel. The Quickload pressure trace I have seen shows 2400 generating max pressure at 2" of bullet travel. I would expect H110/296 to fall somewhere in between, probably closer to the 2" mark for straight wall cases.

Which brings up another issue. If a smaller case is used, the effective barrel length is longer. Using a cartridge 1/2" shorter in an identical gun, or one identical other than the length of the cylinder/chamber, there is a 1/2" more barrel length. If using a barrel under 3-4", that could easily make up the difference between a faster powder and a slower one, if there happens to be a difference in our hypothetical case.

[44man]

You are talking better. Please talk to me and ask questions again. I do forget. PM me or E mail.
Don't believe the internet junk as just posted as it is peak pressure only. Not useful push to a boolit. Yet it seems the pressure curve does not dive to zero. I wonder why?
Did you know gas burning in your engine does not detonate? Additives are added to prevent it. Engine damage is prevented by reducing detonation and making a smooth burn rate. High compression engines need more additives. Gas burn needs slowed to apply pressure the length of piston travel.
Do you think your gun is different?
You can never prove me wrong unless you believe the internet idiots.
If ALL powder burns in 2" to 4" you have a BOMB, is it hard to see?

[44man]

That graph shows peak pressure happening after the bullet has moved 4" down the barrel. The Quickload pressure trace I have seen shows 2400 generating max pressure at 2" of bullet travel. I would expect H110/296 to fall somewhere in between, probably closer to the 2" mark for straight wall cases.

Which brings up another issue. If a smaller case is used, the effective barrel length is longer. Using a cartridge 1/2" shorter in an identical gun, or one identical other than the length of the cylinder/chamber, there is a 1/2" more barrel length. If using a barrel under 3-4", that could easily make up the difference between a faster powder and a slower one, if there happens to be a difference in our hypothetical case.
You fail to see max pressure compared to extended push. That peak is not what drives a boolit. Ever wonder why a slow powder makes boolits faster?

[Any Cal.]

I understand that. I see the graph as showing that peak pressure is not happening inside the chamber. It also shows that more work is done by the powder even after the bullet has left the case mouth.

The problem is that peak pressure has nothing to do with the percentage of powder that has burned up to that point. Since the area behind the bullet is expanding, peak pressure only tells where the powder has created expanding gases faster than bore is being vacated.

If a cartridge makes peak pressure the instant the bullet leaves the bore, it could have a higher velocity with a powder that made peak pressure sooner, so the expanding gases had more time to work. Like I said earlier though, I would expect the break-off point to be somewhere between 2-3" of bullet travel, including throat. -Edit- It would probably also depend on bullet weight and powder selection, to be sure.

[TCTex]

You are talking better. Please talk to me and ask questions again.

Ok, how many times do you want me to ask? LOL If you look at posts 7 and 16 they were very nice and hospitable imho... Yet you didn't answer... Your saying that you will answer them now? Were all adults here, I don’t have to spell on the difference in scenario for the here and now…


Ps, you kind of sounded a little vindictive in post #3. Just saying…



First, I have asked you several question on multiple posts and threads and you have yet to answer them sir. Why not????
In fact you have been notorious for changing the subject and not answering questions…



First, I answer ALL questions to the best of my ability.


The fact is that you do try to answer a lot of questions, and you do it well. But a lot of people here think you pick and choice questions directly asked to you. Do you just not see them or what?

Your passionate about handgun, that is evident, but there is often more than one right answer. Yes, I have and use standard primers. No, not in all of my handguns… LOL I shoot what they tell me they like and I listen to the gun. I understand you want to help people, steer them on the right path, save them time and money, but I don’t argue with what the gun likes…

It is just like the short barrel topic here. I wouldn’t care what powder I used, I want to know what my group looks like on paper at 25 yards. And I will use whatever primer and powder combination the gun says it likes… JMHO

Duane

[smilie=s:

[44man]

Ok, how many times do you want me to ask? LOL If you look at posts 7 and 16 they were very nice and hospitable imho... Yet you didn't answer... Your saying that you will answer them now? Were all adults here, I don’t have to spell on the difference in scenario for the here and now…


Ps, you kind of sounded a little vindictive in post #3. Just saying…








The fact is that you do try to answer a lot of questions, and you do it well. But a lot of people here think you pick and choice questions directly asked to you. Do you just not see them or what?

Your passionate about handgun, that is evident, but there is often more than one right answer. Yes, I have and use standard primers. No, not in all of my handguns… LOL I shoot what they tell me they like and I listen to the gun. I understand you want to help people, steer them on the right path, save them time and money, but I don’t argue with what the gun likes…

It is just like the short barrel topic here. I wouldn’t care what powder I used, I want to know what my group looks like on paper at 25 yards. And I will use whatever primer and powder combination the gun says it likes… JMHO

Duane

[smilie=s:
It is because i forget. I try but can not remember all posts. Forgive me. I do not contradict but i also agree with some to keep piece. They might do better with some thought but I will never say bad about them, I refuse over and over to say anything about a shooter, only to help make a load better. I have made a challenge now and then but it was taken wrong, it was not for the shooter, just the loads. I quit that.
It is so very hard to not hurt feelings. It is so very hard to counter false information too.

[jwp475]

That graph shows peak pressure happening after the bullet has moved 4" down the barrel. The Quickload pressure trace I have seen shows 2400 generating max pressure at 2" of bullet travel. I would expect H110/296 to fall somewhere in between, probably closer to the 2" mark for straight wall cases.

Which brings up another issue. If a smaller case is used, the effective barrel length is longer. Using a cartridge 1/2" shorter in an identical gun, or one identical other than the length of the cylinder/chamber, there is a 1/2" more barrel length. If using a barrel under 3-4", that could easily make up the difference between a faster powder and a slower one, if there happens to be a difference in our hypothetical case.



The graph shows peak pressure between .0004 to .0005 seconds

[TCTex]

Forgive me.


The Bible tells us to forgive and forget. I would be a hypocrite if I couldn’t.

The book of James tells us the no one can tame the tongue, maybe we can help each other… LOL


Duane

:redneck:

[375RUGER]

I just got here and I'll add something,
bigboredad, Can you show these charts you mention?

Let's assume for the sake of argument that it is true that the peak pressure happens before the bullet starts to move. ( I actually can't make a reasonable argument for it) It doesn't mean all the powder is burned. When the bullet starts to move it is like a piston, suddenly the combustion chamber is increasing in size, causing the pressure curve to change. Powder is still burning, but it is burning within a larger volume area. The powders burn characteristics determine how fast this new volume is filled with "propellant gases".
As the powder burns it is giving off gas, and increasing it's volume, and accelerating the bullet.

Now,
Let's not forget the fact that the bullet starts to move when the primer ignites, i.e. squib load. If the primer is enough to unseat the bullet then the chart is ignoring the front "half of the curve", because that bullet has already started lift off when that pressure curve started to rise.

The 6PPC chart is an excellent example. the bullet has moved 4" before the peak pressure, and the bullet is still accelerating beyond this point even though the pressure is decreasing.

A reasonable arguement can be made at this point to say that all the powder has burned when the pressure curve peaks, because the volume is increasing at a rate that is faster than it is being filled with combustion gas. But to say that the curve peaks when the bullet is still seated--No. We would need the expert's charts on this one.
Just sayin'.







The charts showed us right there in black-and-white that everything that is going to happen to build pressure, happens BEFORE the boolit breaks the crimp.

The instant the boolit breaks the crimp the dynamics of case capacity change and the pressure build stops ...thus ending the burn spike...any powder that burns after that takes place, is just on fire and really does no more to assist the boolit on it's way.

If that intial pressure and gas stays behind the boolit longer (longer barrel=more time) you can get more room/time to get the boolit moving faster but you Do Not get a better/longer/more powder burn.

__________________
Custom Gun Leather and Cowboy Gear.

this explains it quite well and on a level just about anyone should be able to understand

[jwp475]

Hasndgun rounds peak pressure considerably faster than rifle rounds.

[Any Cal.]

The graph shows peak pressure between .0004 to .0005 seconds

Yep, and 4-5" down the barrel. A handgun powder burns faster, with the curve I have seen for 2400 showing peak pressure 2" down the barrel. So much for peak pressure being in the case or chamber.

[44man]

A large charge of slow powder going off all at once will have peak pressures 2-3 or 4X as measured. Maybe more! I am guessing but a full charge in a .500 igniting all at once might make 190,000 psi.
Powder choice is made depending on case size, caliber, etc. It is that way to keep pressure peak withing limits. It is why you just can't add more Bullseye or Unique to gain velocity. As you want more velocity you move to a slower powder. You spread the burn over time and distance.
If 4831 all burned at once it would be called BULLSEYE!
JWP, not so, peak is still measured just ahead of the chamber on a rifle. Even a .50 BMG is measured there with over 200 gr of powder. It has nothing to do with acceleration of the bullet. It is always the continual burn over time and distance. Gas continues to be generated behind bullet travel.
Think rail gun. If you had one coil, the projectile would fall off the end of the gun. A series of coils keeps adding velocity.
It is also why fuel in your engine is burned to provide a continual push instead of detonation that will destroy the pistons.
TCTex, you are a good man.

[TCTex]

Jim, I can’t believe the words that are fixing to be uttered from my fingers… … …

:holysheep ... ... ... ... ... ... :2 drunk buddies:

I got into casting conical bullets because of you! You and your darn hero groups with cast bullets... LOL

I now own 20 bullet molds and I am shooting cast bullets exclusively in 90% of my firearms. With that being said, I know I still have a lot to learn from you and the others on this wonderful sight. Maybe together we can keep each other in check… LOL



To quote the movie “Heartbreak Ridge,”
"Highway: Just because we're holding hands doesn't mean we'll be taking warm showers together until the wee hours of the morning."
(Ps, this was meant to be a funny if you didn't catch it... )

And you just about have to watch that scene to not take it out of context… LOL

Duane

[375RUGER]

So who here has a ballistics program that will graph out the theoreticals on a given cartridge, let's say 500S&W.
Charts like the 6PPC. Time, pressure, distance.
Choose 4 or 5 powders, ball of course, AA9, 296 or H110, BL-C(2), ????. 440, 500, 600, ?? gr boolit. I can give my load data later from the house if needed.
Seems to me this discussion is at the point it needs data. And if somebody has the tools whether they have a dog in this fight or not, how bout a little help.

[44man]

So who here has a ballistics program that will graph out the theoreticals on a given cartridge, let's say 500S&W.
Charts like the 6PPC. Time, pressure, distance.
Choose 4 or 5 powders, ball of course, AA9, 296 or H110, BL-C(2), ????. 440, 500, 600, ?? gr boolit. I can give my load data later from the house if needed.
Seems to me this discussion is at the point it needs data. And if somebody has the tools whether they have a dog in this fight or not, how bout a little help.
That would be hard to do. Time to total powder burn is really short no matter. Fast powder is gone faster but you use less. It is too hard to see what goes on in the barrel because instruments only measure peak. You see a trail off of pressure from a chart but it tells you nothing. It is measured at one spot where the copper crusher or strain gauge is mounted. So far a maintained pressure down the bore can't be measured. You only see the peak drop as the bullet moves farther, you do not see barrel pressure at all. The line will be higher with slow powder but the reading is not accurate enough. There might be a way to judge from the peak drop off with a slower trace drop but time is still very short.
We have burn rate charts but time is so short from one powder to another it is hard.
Peak is maintained at safe limits but it tells you nothing about additional burn to increase velocity. If all powder was gone quick, the bullet would slow down when the barrel gets longer. Once all gas is generated, it will not speed up, it drops. It will no longer accelerate a bullet.

[felix]

I met one of the local programmers who did just that, Jim. His military contract enabled him to install transducers down the barrel of a cannon, the caliber of which I don't remember. The exercise was to test various powders with various projectiles. His time was about 6 months' worth of testing and another 6 for reporting the results. He has and had no idea what was what because he was not in charge of loading anything. So, in other words, somebody knows something these days about what is going on in the factory testing rooms. ... felix

[44man]

I met one of the local programmers who did just that, Jim. His military contract enabled him to install transducers down the barrel of a cannon, the caliber of which I don't remember. The exercise was to test various powders with various projectiles. His time was about 6 months' worth of testing and another 6 for reporting the results. He has and had no idea what was what because he was not in charge of loading anything. So, in other words, somebody knows something these days about what is going on in the factory testing rooms. ... felix
Glad to see you drop in Felix. Good point, a years work with no concrete results. It shows how difficult it is.
It is amazing the powder makers make stuff work for us.

[Any Cal.]

So who here has a ballistics program that will graph out the theoreticals on a given cartridge, let's say 500S&W.
Charts like the 6PPC. Time, pressure, distance.
Choose 4 or 5 powders, ball of course, AA9, 296 or H110, BL-C(2), ????. 440, 500, 600, ?? gr boolit. I can give my load data later from the house if needed.
Seems to me this discussion is at the point it needs data. And if somebody has the tools whether they have a dog in this fight or not, how bout a little help.

Google "Quickload Pressure Curve", and select Images. There are a lot of exactly what you are talking about. Quickload has a lot of inputs, so can be off if you don't get it right, but is built to do exactly what you are talking about. I don't own the program, so can't play with it myself, but do like digging up some of the charts.

-Edit- I can't find the one I referenced earlier showing 2" of projectile movement, many handgun powders are showing more like .25"-.5" of movement. That being the case, it could be said that the bullet hadn't left the case before peak pressure was reached, depending on powder and bullet combo. It couldn't be said that the peak pressure was reached before breaking the crimp, but obviously some combos could be said to reach peak pressure in the case.

[white eagle]

I contacted Alliant powder about the 2" burn in the barrel. This is what I got from Ben.
I will have to side with you. All ball powder is not burned in 2". In some cartridges with certain powders, it may be, however in others that use large charge weights and slower burning powders, this is not the case. You win.
Ben
Alliant Powder Technical Service

I don't get it :holysheep

[subsonic]

Now that we have hashed this out thoroughly... why does it matter?

Even if it's not all burned, it is still the powder that acheives the highest velocity. I have not heard anyone mention accuracy really...

Something to think about. Smokeless powder requires pressure in order to burn quickly. If you light a pile, it burns VERY slowly. As soon as the boolit leaves the barrel, the pressure drops - so if there IS any that isn't burned, it will burn very slowly or stop burning.

Some powders that I have used (4227!) leave all kinds of junk in the gun and a lot of residue specks can be blown back toward the shooter when shooting into a headwind. Could maybe tie up the gun as a worst case scenario. This powder residue goes away if pressures are increased.

[subsonic]

Another interesting anecdote.

A few years ago I was working on a reduced recoil load for my (then) 11yr old. We were planning for him to use my Winchester 94 .30-30 for deer season. I tried several loads that were going about 1800-1900fps with a 125gr Sierra HP with different powders.

Two that contrasted dramatically were loads using 2400 and H4895. One had a very sharp recoil and was very loud pronounced crack. The other was VERY soft shooting and was almost tollerable without hearing protection.

Which powder do you think was the loud, sharp one?

[375RUGER]

Doesn't the quickload or some other program make a fairly close educated guess? I think someone has mentioned this before. A close guess maybe all we get but it is better than nothing.


Has the below been defined yet? Or has there existed only speculation?

Does the peak of the pressure happen when all the powder is burned? Meaning that gas volume is just trying to find a way out somewhere and no more gas is being created. Some are believing this.

Is the combustion area increasing exponentially faster than the combustion gasses are filling the increasing combustion area? Meaning the powder is still burning beyond the pressure peak but it is not generating enough gas to maintain the peak pressure because of the increasing volume of the combustion area. I lean towards this second scenario, but I don't think that burn is taking place all the way till the bullet exits the muzzle. except in the case of short barrels. This is also a function of the powder chemistry.

This is where we need to see graphs. On the first page it was mentioned that all the power was completely burned before the bullet even moves and it was mentioned in the post there were black and white graphs to support this. I don't buy this for 1 second. We need to see those and we need to see the ones that tell the truth about what is really going on.
And no I am not calling anyone here a liar.
We're just having some beers:drinks: and a nice civil discussion.

[TCTex]

I have not heard anyone mention accuracy really...

LOL I am glade you brought that up!

Sorry, my rabble got into the way...




It is just like the short barrel topic here. I wouldn’t care what powder I used, I want to know what my group looks like on paper at 25 yards. And I will use whatever primer and powder combination the gun says it likes… JMHO

Duane

[smilie=s:

[subsonic]

Well, accuracy was mentioned..... It seemed like this thread was so focussed on whether the powder burned or not and when, it seemed to loose sight of a useful conclusion. I could care less if it burns or doesn't. I want velocity and accuracy, and maybe a gun that is realatively clean when I'm done shooting. If I am chucking 10gr of unburned powder out the muzzle, I don't really care if the other goals are met.

[TCTex]

SubSonic, as long winded as my posts were and the bla, bla, bal, bal they contained, I would be surprised if many people caught that comment at all… LOL

Were good my friend!!! :drinks:

Duane

[jwp475]

Another interesting anecdote.

A few years ago I was working on a reduced recoil load for my (then) 11yr old. We were planning for him to use my Winchester 94 .30-30 for deer season. I tried several loads that were going about 1800-1900fps with a 125gr Sierra HP with different powders.

Two that contrasted dramatically were loads using 2400 and H4895. One had a very sharp recoil and was very loud pronounced crack. The other was VERY soft shooting and was almost tollerable without hearing protection.

Which powder do you think was the loud, sharp one?



I would suspect that the 2400 load was the one with the loud with sharp recoil. I find that 2400 has a sharper recoil and is louder than H-110/2400 in my 41 mag

[white eagle]

Well, accuracy was mentioned..... It seemed like this thread was so focussed on whether the powder burned or not and when, it seemed to loose sight of a useful conclusion. I could care less if it burns or doesn't. I want velocity and accuracy, and maybe a gun that is realatively clean when I'm done shooting. If I am chucking 10gr of unburned powder out the muzzle, I don't really care if the other goals are met. :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

:bigsmyl2:
You are both right. I found very good accuracy but very low velocity with some powders that chucked powder out and left some in the brass too.

[Lloyd Smale]

my thoughts almost exactly. Only thing we differ in is that i really dont care if a load is a bit dirty either as long as it shoots. I know how to clean a gun. Added to that ive never been one of those anal types that has to have a sparkling clean gun every time he puts it away. Ive yet to shoot so many rounds on any hunt that a gun tied up. Ive shot 1911s till there so dirty they were greasy in the hand and black. Hosed them off with break cleaner and put them away for the next time. I could care less about peak pressure, whether every grain of powder is burned or if my 2 inch barrel isnt quite as effecient as a 10 inch barrel. Everything is a compromise. Id much rather carry a 4 inch n frame in the hunting woods and give up a 200 fps over a awkward 10 inch gun. No matter what all the theroretical scientists say here slow burning powders will still outpace faster powders in most short barreled guns. Sure they wont run with a barrel 6 inches longer and give the same high end velocitys but then either does a 10 inch pistol run with a 24 inch rifle. No matter what the level of effiecientcy is im not going to handgun hunt with a wheelbarrow gun!! If it needs a sling its going to have a but stock. One thing i can say with all certianty. Ive killed deer pigs and bear with 3 inch 44 mags and they died just as dead and tasted just as good.
Well, accuracy was mentioned..... It seemed like this thread was so focussed on whether the powder burned or not and when, it seemed to loose sight of a useful conclusion. I could care less if it burns or doesn't. I want velocity and accuracy, and maybe a gun that is realatively clean when I'm done shooting. If I am chucking 10gr of unburned powder out the muzzle, I don't really care if the other goals are met.

[44man]

my thoughts almost exactly. Only thing we differ in is that i really dont care if a load is a bit dirty either as long as it shoots. I know how to clean a gun. Added to that ive never been one of those anal types that has to have a sparkling clean gun every time he puts it away. Ive yet to shoot so many rounds on any hunt that a gun tied up. Ive shot 1911s till there so dirty they were greasy in the hand and black. Hosed them off with break cleaner and put them away for the next time. I could care less about peak pressure, whether every grain of powder is burned or if my 2 inch barrel isnt quite as effecient as a 10 inch barrel. Everything is a compromise. Id much rather carry a 4 inch n frame in the hunting woods and give up a 200 fps over a awkward 10 inch gun. No matter what all the theroretical scientists say here slow burning powders will still outpace faster powders in most short barreled guns. Sure they wont run with a barrel 6 inches longer and give the same high end velocitys but then either does a 10 inch pistol run with a 24 inch rifle. No matter what the level of effiecientcy is im not going to handgun hunt with a wheelbarrow gun!! If it needs a sling its going to have a but stock. One thing i can say with all certianty. Ive killed deer pigs and bear with 3 inch 44 mags and they died just as dead and tasted just as good.
Yes, I can't argue! [smilie=l:
The question and answer was that all of any powder is fully burned in 2". The answer was wrong.
Sad I had to go to powder companies to prove that fallacy is wrong. Some were diplomatic and some got downright upset over crazy ideas.
Nothing about the barrel length that you like but it is about what caliber you choose for a 3" or 4" barrel.

[Lloyd Smale]

dont know about caliber either. My two 4 inch 500 linebaughs with the exact same loads are within 75 fps of the 5.5 inch gun i used to own. I dont feel i gave up anything by prefering 4 inch barrels. If anything in the big guns it matters less. Sure you burn more powder but you have a bigger bore to burn it in and theres not many game animals IN THE WORLD that are going to know the differnce between being hit by a 450 grain bullet at 1200 compared to 1300fps. Another big advantage ive seen with short barreled big bores is the point of aim seems to change alot less varying bullet weights and load levels. My 4 inch guns will put about any load withing 2 inch of any other load at 25 yard no matter the velocity or bullet weight. That aint happening in a 7 inch gun. Ive allways tought it was due to the fact the bullet was in the barrel less time while the gun is recoiling. By the way contrary to what some will tell you. I find the recoil of my 4 inch 500 to be milder then my 5.5 inch gun was and substaintialy less then my buddys 7.5 inch gun. that one will come up and bop you in the head if your not careful. Sorry but i cant quote any geometry equations to back that up and i have no SO CALLED experts to quote to back it up. It comes from 10s of thousands of rounds of big bore revolver shooting MYSELF ;). To be honest i dont put much store in what is probably some college kid put behind a desk at hodgdon with a list of answers given to him to most questions asked. Like i said too, I dont put much store in a bunch of theroys posted by internet experts either. My opinions come from my own shooting of big bore guns. For about any opinion you can get on the internet about bullet casting, shooting guns and ballistics you can dig a bit deaper and get the total opposite opinion somewhere else. Means nothing to me. Dead animals do and ive yet to see one that math killed!!!! does all the powder burn in a 2 inch barrel. I should probably bow out of this now because i could give a rats @@@!!!!

[44man]

dont know about caliber either. My two 4 inch 500 linebaughs with the exact same loads are within 75 fps of the 5.5 inch gun i used to own. I dont feel i gave up anything by prefering 4 inch barrels. If anything in the big guns it matters less. Sure you burn more powder but you have a bigger bore to burn it in and theres not many game animals IN THE WORLD that are going to know the differnce between being hit by a 450 grain bullet at 1200 compared to 1300fps. Another big advantage ive seen with short barreled big bores is the point of aim seems to change alot less varying bullet weights and load levels. My 4 inch guns will put about any load withing 2 inch of any other load at 25 yard no matter the velocity or bullet weight. That aint happening in a 7 inch gun. Ive allways tought it was due to the fact the bullet was in the barrel less time while the gun is recoiling. By the way contrary to what some will tell you. I find the recoil of my 4 inch 500 to be milder then my 5.5 inch gun was and substaintialy less then my buddys 7.5 inch gun. that one will come up and bop you in the head if your not careful. Sorry but i cant quote any geometry equations to back that up and i have no SO CALLED experts to quote to back it up. It comes from 10s of thousands of rounds of big bore revolver shooting MYSELF ;). To be honest i dont put much store in what is probably some college kid put behind a desk at hodgdon with a list of answers given to him to most questions asked. Like i said too, I dont put much store in a bunch of theroys posted by internet experts either. My opinions come from my own shooting of big bore guns. For about any opinion you can get on the internet about bullet casting, shooting guns and ballistics you can dig a bit deaper and get the total opposite opinion somewhere else. Means nothing to me. Dead animals do and ive yet to see one that math killed!!!! does all the powder burn in a 2 inch barrel. I should probably bow out of this now because i could give a rats @@@!!!!
Still, it is powder burned over distance.
Yes you see less recoil with shorter barrels. Boolits leave fast along with powder weight. Powder weight DOES add to recoil.
Big calibers are better.
But is a .500 S&W better then a JRH or Linebaugh in a short barrel?
Why not a shorter case for the same velocity. Would a .500 special do the same as a S&W in a smaller gun and shorter barrel?
The question is still powder burn.
The .500 S&W in a 4" barrel, then the JRH or Linebaugh, Which is better? NOT THE S&W! The best for the S&W might be 10", 12" 14" or 26", I don't know.
So why would you want a huge 4" gun in S&W at 1200 fps when you can have a JRH at 1300 fps in a smaller 4" gun with less recoil? Shorten the brass, use less powder for less recoil and still get 1200 fps.
The difference is the waste of powder that does not burn, adds to boolit weight for more recoil and a heavier gun to carry. You can not make a SW better then the JRH when you shorten the barrel too much. A huge case only makes your eyes bigger when you look at it.
Of the .500's I consider the JRH best but I will not go below a 6" barrel. The Linebaugh uses more powder but should have a 7-1/2" barrel. The added recoil in a shorter barrel only makes you think it has more power. Splitting your head or ruining your hands is no indication of hunting results. Is a Blackhawk 4" more powerful then a SBH at 7-1/2". Not by a long shot but both will kill. The BH will hurt you but it is not as powerful.
Take a 6# .458 and a 10# with the same barrel length. You will say the 6# is super powerful but are you right?
Why is a primary hunting revolver short? Was it a carry gun? I tried that but when a deer popped up guess what gun was in my hands? The rifle and I shot the deer with it. Why did I carry a revolver? Wait a second Mr. deer while I put the rifle down and take out my revolver---- yeah, sure.

[subsonic]

Jim, with all due respect, the .500 S&W will be faster than the JRH in a 4" barrel. Just like a .357 is faster than a .38 in a snubby. It won't be effcient, will have plenty of blast, and will kick harder, but it will be faster.

As P.O. Ackley has been quoted "Efficiency be damned, it's results we're after!"

[Lloyd Smale]

Personaly Jim i have to use for the 500 smith or even the 460. Not for the reasons you state though. Personaly i think there way to big and clunky. You know my thoughts on long barreled guns for hunting. Same goes for guns that are to heavy. I like to carry my hunting gun in a hip holster and a guy would need suspenders to keep his drawers off the ground carrying one of those cannons. that and im a bit sensible when it comes to recoil and power. the standard 500 and 475 linebaughs will kill anything. they do it in a light compact package and without so much recoil and muzzle blast. Its why even me being a big fan of the linebaughs never had much use for a linebaugh max. I still go back to the fact that if you push a bullet of a given weight to much more then 1300 fps your going to actually decrease penetration. So rounds like the linebaugh maxes, the smiths and even the 454 never did a thing for me. About there only use is pushing bullets faster then what they can hold together at. there impressive on the range if impressing people is what your into but they do NOTHING in the game field that the 45colt 475 and 500 linebaogh wont do with alot less fuss and muss. Bottom line though is a 2 inch 500 smith will walk all over a 7 inch 500 linebaugh though if both are loaded up to the top of there pressure envelope. It may take twice the powder to do it and the army might come knocking to see if youll lend it to them for a flame thrower but it will be faster. Me i will continue to take care of bussiness with my linebaughs loaded with medium heavy bullets at about 1100 fps. Ive yet to have any animal laugh at me after being shot by a load like that and even an old guy like this can shoot them and actually call it fun.

[jwp475]

Jim, with all due respect, the .500 S&W will be faster than the JRH in a 4" barrel. Just like a .357 is faster than a .38 in a snubby. It won't be effcient, will have plenty of blast, and will kick harder, but it will be faster.

As P.O. Ackley has been quoted "Efficiency be damned, it's results we're after!"



+1, exactly!

[44man]

Personaly Jim i have to use for the 500 smith or even the 460. Not for the reasons you state though. Personaly i think there way to big and clunky. You know my thoughts on long barreled guns for hunting. Same goes for guns that are to heavy. I like to carry my hunting gun in a hip holster and a guy would need suspenders to keep his drawers off the ground carrying one of those cannons. that and im a bit sensible when it comes to recoil and power. the standard 500 and 475 linebaughs will kill anything. they do it in a light compact package and without so much recoil and muzzle blast. Its why even me being a big fan of the linebaughs never had much use for a linebaugh max. I still go back to the fact that if you push a bullet of a given weight to much more then 1300 fps your going to actually decrease penetration. So rounds like the linebaugh maxes, the smiths and even the 454 never did a thing for me. About there only use is pushing bullets faster then what they can hold together at. there impressive on the range if impressing people is what your into but they do NOTHING in the game field that the 45colt 475 and 500 linebaogh wont do with alot less fuss and muss. Bottom line though is a 2 inch 500 smith will walk all over a 7 inch 500 linebaugh though if both are loaded up to the top of there pressure envelope. It may take twice the powder to do it and the army might come knocking to see if youll lend it to them for a flame thrower but it will be faster. Me i will continue to take care of bussiness with my linebaughs loaded with medium heavy bullets at about 1100 fps. Ive yet to have any animal laugh at me after being shot by a load like that and even an old guy like this can shoot them and actually call it fun.
Maybe you are right about velocity differences but I do not have a single short barreled revolver and have no use for the .454, or big S&W so I can't compare them. I would say your reasoning is because of the extreme high chamber pressure, like the .454 at 55,000 or better.
I feel like you do, there is no need for the high velocities.
For a walk around gun I take my Vaquero or one of my single shots. From a stand I can shoot much farther so I take a gun with the Ultra Dot and need a shoulder holster.
Work for years with brass much too large for barrel lengths always was a problem, rifle or hand gun.
Any way, a .500 S&W in a 4" barrel! What good is it? You need to hunt with plugs and muffs both.

[Lloyd Smale]

I thought you had a 4570 bfr? If ever there was a gun with to much case for the caliber thats the one unless you consider the crazys who have them chambered in 50 alaskan. .

[Whitworth]

I thought you had a 4570 bfr? If ever there was a gun with to much case for the caliber thats the one unless you consider the crazys who have them chambered in 50 alaskan. .

I would be one of those crazies -- except mine is a DMax and not a BFR.

[44man]

I thought you had a 4570 bfr? If ever there was a gun with to much case for the caliber thats the one unless you consider the crazys who have them chambered in 50 alaskan. .
That is true and it drove me up a wall. It is 10" but the saving grace is the accuracy built into the gun. I tried every powder I could come up with until 4759 made it shoot. That powder still does not utilize the large case. It is a fast powder but is bulky, designed for reduced loads in larger brass.
Of course anything made it go "BANG"! :holysheep Some powders were all over the bench in front of the gun.
Even the 30-30 in a Tender shot best with 4759. Slow powders just sucked.
I am guilty of large case use, I will not deny it but I use a barrel, not a stub! [smilie=l:

[Lloyd Smale]

we all know your one of those recoil junkys ;)
I would be one of those crazies -- except mine is a DMax and not a BFR.

[TXGunNut]

Distance travelled to peak pressure is interesting but not as important (to me, anyway) as peak pressure. I think pressures less than peak are still beneficial to velocity and quite possibly accuracy. Seems to me that most of the physics involved are more complicated than I want to understand but as long as the pressure peaks signicantly before the projectile leaves the barrel and stays near the max pressure for an adequate length of time I'm happy and my gun will be too. If my gun's happy it will give me the velocity and small groups I'm looking for.
I'm amazed by the variety of powders and the performance differences in them with different cartridges and projectiles. One doesn't have to understand the four cycles of today's internal combustion engines to drive a car but a mechanic has to have a pretty good undertanding of the process, just as a handloader must have a working knowledge of pressure curves.
All things being equal (and they never are!) a 2" barrel in any handgun caliber I'm familiar with will always come up a little short (sorry) when compared to a 4-5" barrel.





:popcorn: