Anyone Have a Schuetzen in 10.5x47R?

[John Boy]

... who is knowledgeable of the obsolete caliber, bullet dimensions and Schuetzen rifle sight sources?

[john hayslip]

Dixie Arms used to have rear sights that would fit some. I have Donnelly's book on Cartridge conversions and can probably help with dimensions. I take single shot news that has some info on them too. You need to further define what info you need and I'll try to answer. I'm babysitting grandsons for awhile so may not reply instantly.

[John Boy]

John, for the bullet ...
* best I can find, it is a 419 diameter round nose in the 165 to 198 gr weight range.
* What I'm trying to determine is - what do the GG pattern look like below the driving band?

Brass:
* Know the parent cartridges of a 43 Mauser - 11mm Lebell or a 43 Spanish can be used for conversions to 10.5x47R cases.
What I don't know is what vendor will make the 10.5x47R cases from these parent cartridges

Sights:
* The rifle is a Martini action Schuetzen with a missing foresight and rear diopter
Anyone have that want to sell or sources for these sights:

Foresight
The foresight that will fit this rifle is the the top part of the Supportkorn mit Einschaub sight The windage adjustment base is still attached to the rifle. But any of the left - right dove tail cut sights will work also including the ramp types with the ramp attached by a dove tail. So I do have options for the front sight...
http://www.assra.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/GermanTargetRifles-FrontSights.jpg

Rear Sight:
The needed diopter sight is an exact match of this one
http://www.assra.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/ZS-Diopter-Vierlinger_001.jpg

[Wayne Smith]

Can't help you with the sight but I have a Cape Gun in nominally the same caliber - there was an awfully lot of variation. I got 9.5x47R cases, I think from Huntingtons, and fireformed them.

[John Boy]

Wayne, I'll give Huntington's a call ... Thanks for the reply
The 9.5x47R Martini Schuetzen has a rim diameter of 0.583. This 10.5x47R Martini action rifle has a rim diameter of 0.595. The caliber spec is 0.591

[6pt-sika]

I have a 8.15x46R that I needed sights for . And I got them from a guy in Oregon or Washington I forget which . He made the entire rear sight and I think it cost me a hair under $200 . He had and older front sight like the "Perlkorn" and we adapted it to fit .

If I can find his name I'll post it .

In the mean time you can go on the ASSRA webpage and I'm sure someone there can head you in the right direction as thats where I got it from .

[MBTcustom]

I want to make a diopter sight like that! That is beautiful. Can you imagine what it looked like in all its original color case hardened glory? I want one of those babies on a bolt gun. I'm going to save that picture so I can have something to reference, but that is awesome! Check out the double helical thread on the main beam. I'll bet that whole thing was made with a file. Sweet.

[john hayslip]

If there is anyone in the U.S. that makes finished cartridges for it or formed cases for that matter it's Bob Hayley in Seymour Texas. I searched bob cartridge seymour and found a websight for him. He makes all sorts of weird ones for people. There was a really good article on him in Handloader magazine a few months ago by Terry Weiand and I have it and will send a cooy if you send me a pm with your address. I'm to old to care about figuring out how to do attachments. I'll check some ASSRA newsletters I have and see if anyone recent is advertising them. I think the aforementioned fellow in Oregon did and there was a German who did some years ago.

[john hayslip]

back in 1988 a german by the name of Roland Lindermeier was advertising newly made ones similar to the ones you showed and he still appears to be hale and hearty according to the net. He lives on Lessingstr 12, 8071 Eitensheim Germany.

Another fellow offered Match Diopter system Zentrum sights which are a little different. I got no hits but didn't look too hard - David J Moses, Manufacturer's agent in Oelsberg Germany. Did get hits on the name of the sight but again I don't think it's what you want.

The third advertiser who was a possibility had an obituary posted on the web in 2010.

My Dixie Gun Works catalog doesn't mention them and I tried their not too good web site and found nothing.

I'm out of ideas.

[john hayslip]

Just had another thought and went to c&h website (google c&h dies) where I found the dies for $116 and change though you'll need a shellholder too as it's not included and its a little more - like 8 if I remember correctly -I ordered some old Stevens dies last year and forgot the shellholder and had to go back and pay another postage. Forming should be easy. I used to do 40-65's like this. Put a thin film of Lee case lube on each case and run it into the sizing die (without the decapping stem) and then trim to length. Donnelly indicates that you may have to reduce the size of the rim too. You shouldn't have to buy any special dies. Good luck!

[john hayslip]

I also know a lady in New Jersey who makes trips to Germany and brings back schuetzen stuff she sells on Ebay who might be able to find something there for you if all else fails.

Dixie Gun Works at one time had some of the sights (rear) you are looking for. As I said earlier there web site leaves a lot to be desired as far as I'm concerned but you might spend a phone call and ask.

[PAT303]

My schuetzen muzzle loader has that rear sight,it also has a very slow 1/32 twist barrel. Pat

[john hayslip]

I suspect you can take a Lee aluminum mold in 40 cal of the approximate weight you want and increase the size of the bullet if you have a drill press. cast a bullet,drill a hole in the center of the base, put the stem of a screw in the hole, put a little valve grinding compound on the bullet in the area you want to enlarge and rotate for a few seconds until the mold gets very warm, repeat until you get to the size bullet you want, clean the mold, smoke it and cast to your heart's content. It may not be the exact shape you want but it is an inexpensive way of at least shooting it until you can find a correct mold. I picked out an ASSRA news letter yesterday when I was looking through them on how to select the correct schuetzen bullet and can copy that too if you want it.

[John Boy]

John, you have been nothing but a large wheel barrel of good information :drinks:
This rifle is nice but because of caliber primarily, gonna be several projects. As of now, here's what's in the pepper mill:
* On order until diopter and front sight is on the rifle: a long eye relief 7X scope & a 16mm scope mount
* Have been in touch with Bill Loos in Rochester, NY. The front sight is easy - the base is on the rifle. Will send it to Bill and he will affix the top piece. Then I will have a Supportkorn sight
http://www.assra.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/GermanTargetRifles-FrontSights.jpg

* All the boss & foot dimensions have been provided to Bill, including the elevation distance from the top of the boss (base) to the barrel. Bill is going to take the measurements and put together a rear diopter with the closest dimensions. Then it's Swiss file time for me

Back up is Ron Heilman in WA who makes Schuetzen rifle diopters if all else fails

* References say the grooves are 412 but the chamber cast & slugging the bore are different. The chamber cast measured 378 at the leading bore cuts down to 375 and 371 (bore slug) at the muzzle. Tried resizing the 405 Winchester bullet (412) ... disaster! So a custom mold needs to be ordered

* Brass: Have options. Call Bob Hayley that you provided to see if can make proper 10.5x47R cases. Also talk to Buffalo Arms. They currently make 43 Spanish brass from 348 cases. Order the 43 Spanish, decrease the rim diameter and shorten the length to 1.82 and reform with a die set from CH4D. Also, ask Jim at BACO to order a 10.5x47R die set from CH4D, trim the 43 Spanish cases to proper size and then be the only vendor in the US to have stock 10.5x47R cases to sell

I live in NJ ... would you mind by PM sending me the contact information for the NJ lady that goes to Germany for Schuetzen parts. Every time a Martini, System Aydt, etc is posted on ASSRA needing sights - this lady's name has never been identified as a parts source. There are more parts still in Germany & Switzerland than all the known sources in the US

PS: Yes, I would like to have the article how to select the correct schuetzen bullet. Let me needed email address if scanned or USPS mailing address if copied.

And Thanks Again for Everything!

[Wayne Smith]

Just had another thought and went to c&h website (google c&h dies) where I found the dies for $116 and change though you'll need a shellholder too as it's not included and its a little more - like 8 if I remember correctly -I ordered some old Stevens dies last year and forgot the shellholder and had to go back and pay another postage. Forming should be easy. I used to do 40-65's like this. Put a thin film of Lee case lube on each case and run it into the sizing die (without the decapping stem) and then trim to length. Donnelly indicates that you may have to reduce the size of the rim too. You shouldn't have to buy any special dies. Good luck!

When you talk to CH be sure to have a fireformed case or a chamber cast to send them. Remember I said that there was a lot of variation? I sent my chamber cast to CH and called them - they told me that mine was different than all 23 other 10.5x47R chamber casts they had! There is no guarantee with these chambers, there was no standardization then. Each different maker had their own reamer, apparently. Mine is in a Cape Gun dated 1888-1892 made in Stettin.

[John Boy]

Wayne, the measurements of the chamber cast matched up on the money to 2 reference sources for the cartridge. What was different was the smaller bore dimensions with the surprise that it is tapered and not 412.

Good recommendation though to send Mr Davidson the chamber cast because I have no brass yet.

[PAT303]

Are these rifles converted muzzle loaders like the trapdoor and snider?. Pat

[John Boy]

Are these rifles converted muzzle loaders like the trapdoor and snider?
Pat, these rifle are not conversions. There are percussions, pre 1890, and then centerfires after then. Here are various pictures of Schuetzen rifles ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=schuetzen+rifles&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=9ku&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=6jQIULaYAubi0QHi-cnuAw&ved=0CFEQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=456