Tried some things....

[x101airborne]

So I am getting my loads ready for my South Texas dove hunt on the King Ranch this fall, and I tried some of my loads. I have some observations.

Fiocchi 2 3/4 hulls pre-primed from BPI. 1210 wads from BPI and a 430gr (1 oz) shotcharge of nickle #8's over 19 grains of 700X for a book load of 1240 FPS according to Advantages V.

Shot at 25 yards at 24 inch by 24 inch poster board at 25 yards.
Weapon is a Browning Silver Pigeon O/U with mod and imp short chokes.
Ummmm...... The patterns were less than stellar?.
Ok, they had a vacume imminating from them.

A couple of things...
1. This should be the load that everyone is talking about and should be a great field load. Even the BOOKS say that this should be the bomb diggidy of dove loads. I couldnt shoot rats in the barn with this load.

2. I loaded some rounds.... Fioochi 2 3/4 inch with 1205 wads and 7/8 oz over the 21 gr 700X with a kevlar over shot card. They still werent awesome, but they shot SO much better than the 1 oz load. Same weapon, same chokes.

One question is.... the 1210 wads are listed for 1 to 1 1/4 oz loads of 7.5's. How in the heck does someone get that much shot in a wad when it is already flowing over the top of the cup at 1 oz?

Second... If the 1 oz load at just over 1200 is supposed to be so superior, (and I know all weapons are different) why did the 7/8 load shoot so much better? I am not doubting anyones experience, I am asking a honest question so I can learn. Did I do something that I dont realize? Is my weapon just a different case maybe out of the norm?

Another thing that I am concerned about, is if the shot is over the top of the wad, does this leave me open to damaging my barrel and choke with a pellet going between the wad cup and the barrel? At the least I am concerned with gas loss and scarring the inside of the internal forcing cone(s).

Oh, someone give me some sanity on this.
A trusted member gave me some information on "killer bee" loads for doves and so far, this is turning out more useful than the standard 1 oz loads. And yes, I know that every situation is different, but I am trying to take in a whole lot of information.
Call this my first day of reloading.

Does anyone have any sound information / wisdom to give me? I am seeking Mohammed and have come to the mountain. If this was not my true results, I would still be asking about the 1 1/4 oz old school duck and phesant loads that I started wanting.

My next endeavor is to get some extended chokes in modified and full to extend range of some of these loads. I was just hoping to use the loads to negate the need for chokes.

[Hamish]

You have a very good handle on the concept of matching the boolit to the bore to the lube to the powder to the,,,,,,,

Same with scatterguns. You can take the same handload and shoot it in two different guns, two diff. chokes, and get similar patterns.

You *really* want to start cooking your brain, start trying to quantify the fact that your shot pattern is not two dimensional. It has height, width and length. It is an actual cloud shape.

It may take several tries to find what you want, and don't be afraid to try each load with several chokes, you'd be surprised sometimes.

LL, my personal load of quite a few years is approximately 50% #7 1/2, 25% # 8"s, and 25% #9's. Works *very* well. I use 700X also, in the 1400fps area.

Stay with it.

[geargnasher]

I'm not sure what you were expecting, but 1-oz. loads from a modified choke should give you at least 90% of the pellets in a 30" circle at 25 yards. IC should be a bit less, maybe 85% or so at that range. So if you're shooting a 24" square at 25 yards, your tightest barrel will still be throwing 30% or more of the pellets off the grid. Sounds to me like you're expecting full-choke patterns at that range, which you aren't going to get with the barrels you have unless you tape the wad petals.

Grab some big pieces of cardboard from one of the local stores and try to get at least a three-foot circle to shoot at, and try it at 20, 30, and 40 yards. A roll of 3' butcher paper, a half-sheet of OSB or plywood, and a staple gun is also your friend if you're going to be working up a lot of loads.

Gear

[x101airborne]

Thank you guys. I am wanting to hunt those elusive doves that like to fly at 40 yards. We RARELY get doves inside 25 yards. Our land is open and short grassed and fly-by's are the rule, not the exception. And they are MOVIN'! That is why I chose a shotcup that was rated for 35 - 65 yards. Unfortunately, I dont think my chokes are up for it.

Beyond that, WHY did the 7/8 ounce load pattern tighter than the 1 oz load? More shot.... more holes in pattern. Right? Right?

[x101airborne]

You have a very good handle on the concept of matching the boolit to the bore to the lube to the powder to the,,,,,,,

No, I dont. I am still confused on that. TM



You *really* want to start cooking your brain, start trying to quantify the fact that your shot pattern is not two dimensional. It has height, width and length. It is an actual cloud shape.

Well, I actually thought of it like a comet. A shot ball with some stragglers around it and a long trailing tail that requires you to over lead the target. TM

It may take several tries to find what you want, and don't be afraid to try each load with several chokes, you'd be surprised sometimes.

LL, my personal load of quite a few years is approximately 50% #7 1/2, 25% # 8"s, and 25% #9's. Works *very* well. I use 700X also, in the 1400fps area.

Stay with it.

I am still in the dark

[runfiverun]

try a slower powder.
they make 800-x,unique,herco,hs-6,steel,blue-dot etc, for a reason, and it ain't for cast boolit loads.
if you are overfilling the wad you have nothing containing the shot when it leaves the bbl.
then when it leaves the wad the shot runs into the slower scattering shot.
the shotcup protects the shot going down the bbl and through the choke, and also contains it outside the bbl.
if you want a 1oz of shot load look at target wads they will handle velocity's in the 1300 or higher range just fine.
wads can affect your pressure and also your pattern,look at the petal length,thickness,and the collapsible part, plus the wads plastic make-up when making a decision.
the wt-12 and aa wa-12 and the knock off aa type wad all look quite similar but all can have an affect on your final pattern dispersion.
they interface with your bbl diameter,leade,and actual choke dimensions [as well as the choke length]
just changing shot size can affect how a load performs as it moves through the choke constriction.

[tomme boy]

If you are going to shot that far, go straight to the 1 1/8oz. shotload. Put in your modified an full choke tubes.

I also do not like the straight wall hulls. Never could get them to work like I like. Find a Remington Premier hull and a AA12 wad and you should be good to go. Stay away from the over shot cards, they can blow a pattern. If you need to use one to adjust the load height, use a cheerio. It works.

[geargnasher]

We tried to tell you STS, but no, gotta have the Fiocci, I see how it is [smilie=b: :kidding:(like I'd know the difference!)

My FIL said he can hook you up with a couple hunnert STS hulls if you're having trouble getting them, but you need the right wads.

Gear

[x101airborne]

That would be great, Gear. Unfortunately, I ordered the Fiocchi's before we conversed about the STS's.

If your FIL has em like that, I sure would like some of the STS's. Very kind of him to offer. I guess I will just have to make the 6.00 investment in ANOTHER bag of wads! LOL

[UNIQUEDOT]

The sts hull is the best because it loads nicer and lasts a lot longer, but the reifenhauser tubes are not your problem on the pattern board. I load sts and straight walls by the thousands and as long as you match the wad and hull you are good to go with either. Pick up a pound of green dot and a bag of federal 12so and a bag of 12s3 wads for those fiocchi hulls and try a few 7/8, 1, and 1 1/8 ounce loads til you find the best load for you and your gun at your intended ranges. When it comes to shotshells it takes some doing to better factory results because you can easily get a better pattern with handloads and you can just as easily get higher velocities with your handloads, but in order to better the factory load you need both and that takes some doing. Also with whatever wad you use don't worry about them being a little overfilled as all the shot (within reason) is inside the shotcup when setback occurs, but if it's already overflowing with an ounce it sure isn't the correct wad for an ounce and eighth. The length of your forcing cones and tapering of your bore will also affect patterns and some guns throw the most even patterns with no shotcup at all as the tapering in them acts like one long forcing cone, but this is usually only found with older guns that were designed around traditional wad columns. Keep experimenting with different wads and powder and you'll eventually find what you're looking for.

[35remington]

To some extent you're "overbuying" your components. BPI is far from the lowest cost component supplier out there, and excellent results can be had with more pedestrian, more easily available, cheaper components.

I've yet to see where nickeled shot at outrageous prices was necessary to get good patterns for dove loads. Nor BPI components. Regular "hard" shot will do.

If maximum range turns you on, you've eventually come around to something like 1 1/8 ounce of 7 1/2's. To cover all the bases, and ensure the shot at the bottom of the shotcup are as round as possible, you may want to try buffering materials. I suppose a 1 1/4 ounce load could be contemplated too, but quite frankly the increased recoil and shot starts to hit the law of diminishing returns.

Forget the "super speed" loads that BPI will try to promote.

[35remington]

Another thought......

If dove shooting begins at 40 yards for you, I can't think of any loadings that will "negate the need for chokes." There's no free lunch. Modified and full are your selections here. Trap shooters nearing the 27 yard line never shoot open chokes, and the ranges at which they hit their targets approximate what you are contemplating. Not many of them use 7/8 ounce loads at the long yardage either.

We tend to wax philosophic over the virtues of less shot because shot is so expensive nowadays, and we rationalize those choices based on "good enough" results for clay target shooting at ranges that are undemanding in terms of pattern density, which is all skeet shooting and 16 yard trapshooting. If the idea was to put more holes in the target, as in hunting, a fella needs to avail himself of those things that will put more holes in the target, which is heavier shot charges (within reason) and chokes that concentrate the shot.

I'm not advocating 1 7/8 loads for dove shooting. The necessarily small shot needed for the small birds means lighter charges will have all the range needed as there are many 7 1/2's or 8's in a shotshell. But we can't go too light in weight either.

To handicap myself, I often use a single shot when hunting in the middle of the day to make the time to collect my limit longer, and I often "kick em' up" when walking a wheatfield. Which makes the more open choke my inexpensive little NEF has useful (it's marked "modified" but patterns closer skeet or improved cylinder), but I've observed that 7/8 ounce loads, in an open choke, put too few pellets in the bird when they get up wild. A lot of the ones I do grass at range have a single pellet hit. More choke and more shot will do what you want to do.

Again, within reason.

[UNIQUEDOT]

I've yet to see where nickeled shot at outrageous prices was necessary to get good patterns for dove loads. Nor BPI components. Regular "hard" shot will do.

I agree that nickel shot is a waste of money. I still have plenty of copper plated shot left that i bought years ago because i found i could get just as good patterns with magnum alloy. I have shot buffered copper plated loads in an O/U Fausti that gave the poorest patterns i had ever seen. Some people think that plated shot and buffered loads automatically produce magical results, but i hope they shoot them at the pattern board before pointing at big tom. Plated shot will of course give equal patterns as magnum alloy, but at least with my loadings it hasn't shown to improve them. The extra hardness isn't whats supposed to make plated shot superior, but rather the lubricity it offers is supposed to make the pellets slip around each other with less deformation, but the shot in the bottom of the shotcup is going to be in the lead after exiting the muzzle and it's bound to be deformed and pushing the more perfect spheres out of it's way in an disruptive fashion.

[x101airborne]

Tried some more things at the range today. Since I wasn't pleased with the groups from the 1210 wad with the nickle 8 shot, I loaded some 3/4 oz loads with the 1205 wad and shot them from the same chokes and weapon. At 25 yards, I had a beautiful pattern. There were no places where a dove could get through without taking MANY pellets. I know 25 yards is short, but it is my starting point. My overall pattern came to right at 18 to 20 inches with some irreverent flyers, but a VERY consistent pattern. And, those were by book pushed to right at 1470 fps. I am sorry, but speed did not blow this pattern. And, it was TIGHT! I shot 5 pattern targets with this load and this is penetrating not only a 1/4 inch map board, but also a 1/4 inch piece of cabinet plywood! I know that 8's loose enerby quickly, but so far, I am impressed. And yes, I know I am testing at 25 yards, but hey, it is a starting place.

[35remington]

Now try it at 40.

Why, if long range is your emphasis, are you shooting at this range? By your own comments, "We RARELY get doves inside 25 yards."

3/4 ounce loads ain't where it's at. Time to shoot at relevant ranges. I can kill them with a .410 at 25.

As I said, at any range where the pattern is still adequate, penetration is still adequate with 1150/1200 fps loads. To save yourself some time, and to use a yardstick that has been proven in competition, try some high quality traploads favored by the guys who shoot handicap. Trap shooters, believe me, are quick to perceive whether they are getting pattern efficiency or not. Given the many years trap has been a sport, the better factory loads have been tweaked to get the most out of the shotgun's potential with reasonable charge weights.

If you can duplicate this with handloads, then you are there.

[x101airborne]

Exactly. I need to move my target out. That is the next step. Like I said, I only loaded 5 rounds for preliminary testing today.

[35remington]

Not to lose the forest for the trees........the whole process is fun, really, but when I'm "mathematical" enough to truly analyze patterns, it gets a little tedious.

But you can vary pattern percentages significantly depending upon what you feed the gun. In a favorite (original) Super X-1 and its modified barrel, I've varied patterns from about 55 to 74 percent, depending upon what I feed it.

My most recent testing was sorta the same as yours, but involved pheasants, number four and five shot, and 1 3/8ths to 1 1/2 ounce of shot. To see where it got me. And learned something along the way.

[x101airborne]

I like the journey. I like the experementing and the shooting, and yes, sometimes the failures. If I didnt enjoy it, I would just buy rio #6's.

[UNIQUEDOT]

those were by book pushed to right at 1470 fps. I am sorry, but speed did not blow this pattern.

"By the book" means hand weighing the powder and shot charge and if you didn't chronograph the loads you really have no way of knowing if yours were actually 1470 or 1300 fps. Sometimes fast loads do pattern better than the same load with reduced velocity in some guns, but most often the slower load gives a more even pattern and powder burn speeds affect patterns as well. If you're after speed and want to consistently kill doves at 40 yards you need to experiment with heavier shot charges and powders in the burn range of green dot or perhaps even unique for loads in the 1 1/8 ounce range. Hodgdon has some smoking fast 1 1/8 ounce loads (1585 fps) using longshot powder, but you will pay for the speed with felt recoil and fireballs.

[35remington]

"Hodgdon has some smoking fast 1 1/8 ounce loads (1585 fps) using longshot powder........"

Oh heaven forbid. The only thing more foolish than shooting tiny shot at screaming velocities is probably mudflaps on a sledgehammer. I can't see the point of getting kicked senseless to shoot a bird. After all, they're only birds.

Those would kick about the same as some of my Blue Dot/Lee 1 oz. slug loads that are supposedly going near 1700 fps. No thanks.

[runfiverun]

yeah howdy.
i used some of the longshot with sam-1 steel shot wads and 1-1/4 oz of #5's.
it was the first time i ever missed a crossing shot on a duck by leading it.
i seen it pull it's head back.
second shot was aimed at the head/neck and down it went.
45 yds [i paced it out] on the first shot.
10 more steps to the second shot and 5 more to the bird.
i remember the steps because i hunted 5 dogs pup on that day [would have been her first hunting retrieve] and made the retrieve myself with her at heel.
and the next shot was on a pheasant which i promptly turned into a foof ball.
i learned more than the pup did that day ,about making a more all around shotgun load anyway.

[x101airborne]

So does anyone know how to use a conventional chronograph for shotguns? I have heard that you can, you cant, and you shouldnt. I just cant take the chance of shooting my pact with a close up load from a shotgun. If this is possible, great. But I dont see how with the shot starting to spread and the wad slowing down. And in Advantages V, the say that it is impossible for a conventional chrony to be used on shotgun rounds. They state that only high speed photography can be used. Any one have any first hand experience?

[geargnasher]

I put a 3/8" steel plate in front of my Chrony and used little dowel rods for skyscreen supports and got readings off revolver shot loads just fine. Distance to muzzle was about six feet. I think it read the wad more than the shot, but I got more readings than errors, so it CAN be done.

Gear

[UNIQUEDOT]

I think my chrony said to remove the screens and distance was different too, but don't recall right off the top of my head how far the muzzle needed to be away from the front sensor to avoid erroneous readings.

[UNIQUEDOT]

"Hodgdon has some smoking fast 1 1/8 ounce loads (1585 fps) using longshot powder........"

Oh heaven forbid. The only thing more foolish than shooting tiny shot at screaming velocities is probably mudflaps on a sledgehammer. I can't see the point of getting kicked senseless to shoot a bird. After all, they're only birds.

Those would kick about the same as some of my Blue Dot/Lee 1 oz. slug loads that are supposedly going near 1700 fps. No thanks.

I wouldn't shoot them either, but when it comes to fur bearers speed does increase penetration with shot if the size is matched to the animal.

[x101airborne]

On a side note, I did try my new #4 buck load out. 27 pellets, cornmeal buffer, MG42 wad mica dusted, 25 grains of Herco, Fiocchi hull and primer. Shot through my 870 with a Black Cloud extra full extended choke I got a real nice 8 inch pattern at 25 yards. It would have been a real good 6 1/2, but had a pellet fall out of the pattern. Man I love that choke for yotes with a shotgun.

[geargnasher]

Try your birdshot loads with that choke. Look for something like 80% of the pellets in a 30" circle at 40 yards.

Gear

[x101airborne]

Yeah, using that choke with the real black cloud 3 inch #2's or the Winchester 3 inch BB's I actually feel sorry for the ducks and geese I shoot with em. Dang you never seen patterns that tight or so much flesh torn up on passing birds. If Dad's 16 gauge wasn't already called "The Hammer", that's what I would call that tube.

[35remington]

Never had buckshot underpenetrate, even at 1100 fps muzzle velocity. That is, when it is matched to the size of the game being shot. Most of the "low recoil" buckshot loads suffer not at all in many online gelatin tests when velocity is reduced.

If hunting furbearing animals with #2 or BB size shot (and I have done so on coyote) I regard 1 1/8 ounces to be rather pattern limited with such large shot. Again, pattern will fail before penetration, even at the lower velocities.

I tend to go more toward 1 1/2 ounces in a 2 3/4 inch shell, usually with an RP 12 wad and buffer.

[35remington]

With Federal's Flitecontrol wad and their 9 pellet 00 buck load, from a cylinder barrel I've been getting 5 inch patterns at 25 yards, which seems to be pretty typical for that wad. From what I've seen, the #1 buck has been doing even better, but I haven't had the chance to try any yet.

Great stuff.

No choked barrel I've yet read of or experienced will outdo the Flitecontrol with buckshot in a cylinder barrel. Pretty much can't.

[mac1911]

Sometimes its best not to get hung up on flat patterns. I pattern any new shot gun to me to see if the chokes falll in line with marked info also to check poa vs poi. I have patterned many 12 & 20 gauge reloads.
some of my best on paper patterns have been 1oz 7 1/2 shot out of my Browning citori 12 g with slip in guage reducer down to 20 g.with Modified choke.
sometimes real world testing is better. ........how about a round of sporting clays.

I was convinced long ago birds do not really get through any holes in your patterns its more to do with not getting the shot charge on target. If you could high speed film a shot pattern on a dove shot I give a nod to the shot charge going over or under the dove. The weak hits or few pellets that hit are the result of the bird only passing through the outer limits of the pattern.

[35remington]

mac, if the range is too long, there are many holes in the pattern the bird can escape through. The shot do get further and further apart downrange, after all, and the less shot to fill the pattern the sooner it happens. Within reason.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I'm probably opening a can of worms her, but about the only thing a pattern will tell you is the actually percentage choke of your load/choke combo - and that can still vary to the point where a full choke from time to time will throw a modified pattern or vice versa. If the pellets are fairly round to begin with, whatever holes and clusters the patterns will show is mostly gaussian noise. Don't worry about it.

[Gee_Wizz01]

For south Texas dove hunting I finally settled on 1 1/4 oz of 7 1/2 traveling at approx 1300 1350 fps. For years I played with various 1 oz loads, but I never killed as many doves as I did with my 1 1/4 oz loads. The other thing I found that for me, #7 1/2 killed better at 40-60yds than any #8 loads. I normally dove hunt with an old Wingmaster with a modified choke' For an easy patterning setup, I placed two fence posts about 42" apart and stretched a wire across the top and another wire about 40" below the top wire. I buy the 150' rolls of brown paper at home depot. I use clothes pins or duck bill clips to clip pieces of the paper between the wires. This system works great if you are shooting a large quantity of patterns.

G

[x101airborne]

Well, I gotta eat a little crow and crow just a little.
I loaded some magnum 7 1/2 at a book load of 1430 fps. That blew the pattern. My pattern went to 55% at 40 yards with an my 870 and a full choke from 70%. But I think, and I do mean think...... It is more a product of pressure versus wad fit rather than just velocity alone. I cant be sure, but more testing to come.

Now for the crowing... I loaded some test loads of Fiocchi 2 3/4 hulls with fiocchi primers, 22 grains of 700X and a Helarco 1210 wad mica dusted full of magnum #6 lead. I didnt have time to pattern test these, but shot a coon outside my chicken coop last night. That load just FLATTENED it. I am proud of that load. I am still going to do some testing with the MG42 wad and cork disks under the shot, but I am going to use this load in the mean time for skunks, opossums, coons, fox, etc.

[x101airborne]

Hey RunFiveRun...... I would like to hear more about those 3 inch Sam I loads of yours. I got 500 new 3 inch primed Cheddite hulls and about 1000 Sam I wads. I was thinking about loading some buckshot loads, but havent really had time to play around with them. My dad says he has an old Steelmaster press in his gunroom, so I am waiting to get that so I dont have to mess with my press.

[35remington]

Be careful that setback forces do not embed the pellets into the relatively soft cork wads. This is better with a hard card under the shot for the topmost spacer.

[x101airborne]

Ah, good point 35remington. I do have a bunch of hard felt 20 ga wads that are about a half inch thinck, so I will try them. Thanks for the heads up.

[runfiverun]

the sam-1 wads can be adjusted to open your shot pattens with a wad slitter.
airc you can order them unslit and cut your own slits in them to adjust your shot patterns at different distances.
i have a couple of hundred unslit ones in the wad freezer [yes i have a 6' chest freezer full of 12 ga shotshell wads]
one of the best combinations i found was steel powder and the sam-1 wad. [34grs 1-1/4 oz] 3" remington hull
this one would make an excellent buckshot load with a buffer.
or 800-x with the no-longer made mec steel shot wad. [24 grs 1-1/8th oz but come out closer to 1-1/16th oz for the crimp] in the federal gold medal hull
the longshot powder will outspeed both of them but they will both do 14-1500 fps quite easily.
you will want to weigh the powder for each shell with the 800-x and steel.
i would have to dig in my notes [and see if i still have the load] but i had a sr-4756 1-oz steel shot 2-3/4" hull load in the 1700 fps range. [using a felt under wad]
it was in the old federal paper 2-3/4" target hull.

[375RUGER]

R5R,
what's the purpose of freezing your wads? so they will be ready for a cold morning in the blind?:kidding:

seriously though- 34g Steel, and 1-1/4oz steel shot, with or without buffer? any felt or other?

what about your Longshot loads? please share.
thanks.