Stuck case problem disaster

[Joe504]

Ok, first off, Im an idiot.

I had a broken case stuck in an Enfield I MkIII. I have a broken case extractor, so, in it goes. Now, its stuck. The extractor on the bolt turns lose form the case extractor and will not pull it out.

I have a bright idea. When slugging a bore, I use pieces of hardwood dowel to push the slug through, why not do the same and push the broken case and extractor out?

Now I have a barrel full of wooden dowel, and no amount of pounding is breaking it loose. Eventually the last piece of dowel broke at the crown, and each time I tried to pound another piece in, it just splits.

At this point, I feel like on of the 'dont do this' stories in Gunsmith Kinks.

Im at a loss as of what to do. Right now, its muzzle down, with the chamber full of 3 n 1 oil (I do not have any kroil). Any ideas? Feel free to comment on my lack of patience.

Here is the muzzle
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/18362500305dce7956.jpg

Here is the stuck case extractor, with the head attached.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/18362500305dd6861e.jpg

The head of the extractor is threaded, so here it is detached
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/18362500305ddeb3a1.jpg

[GT27]

Sleep at a Holiday Inn Express and you can wake up a engineer!:kidding: No really,take time to think about it mechannically,use a lot of patience,and remove 1 piece at a time! Best advice I can give you without a pic,and don't feel bad we have all been there,some just wont admit it! GT27

[HollowPoint]

If it makes you feel any better; when it happened to me (case stuck due to case-head separation) I ignorantly thought I could pick out the broken case with a fine screw driver.

I ended up scraping gouges into the chamber of my No.4 Mk1. I did finally get the broken case out and the gun still fired safely but, all of my brass got permanently embossed by the gouges I had carved into the walls of the chamber.

The only way to fix it was to re-barrel it.

Learn from this children.

HollowPoint

[Jens]

do you think the case extractor expanded and got wedged in place? i would try heating it?

[waksupi]

You may be able to hard solder a drill bit to a shank, and then a tap on a rod to put in through the back of the action. Drill out the primer, and then thread the hole. Put in a long ready bolt, with an impact piece of some sort, and a nut on the end. See if you can pull it out with the impact driver. If the first pull fails and strips, keep going up in size. You don't have much to loose, since you went this far.

Oops, just read the OP again. Guess you need to get the extractor out. You are beyond your skill set. Take it to a pro to be remedied.

As you have now learned, NEVER use wood rods in a barrel for this type of work.

[bob208]

first the,oil mite cause the wood to swell making it tighter. i would try to get a long wood screw in the wood hook it to a slide hammer like a dent puller and try to bump it out. then hook the slide hammer to the shell extractor and do the same. it has worked for me.

another trick to remove a broken shell is to put in two lead ball and upset them then screw in the slid hammer and bump it out.

[leadman]

This is to do before you get the wood stuck in the barrel. Plug the bore from the muzzle end with a thick patch just above the case. Pour lead in the broken shell and let it harden. Then use a metal rod centered in the bore with wraps of tape spaced up the rod and knock out the case.

The situation you are in now if the rifle has any worth to it is see a gunsmith to take the barrel off and get the pieces of stuff out of the bore.

I wonder if stump rot solution would hurt the bore???

[MBTcustom]

That's pretty bad. The case is still your paramount problem, and it needs to be cleared. I think the slide hammer trick is the one I would use, but you need to get a hold on that extractor and in order to do that, you need a machine shop. I wish you were closer, we'd get this fixed over a 12 pack in one afternoon....maybe two. You don't feel like driving to Arkansas do you?

[Joe504]

I just added pics to the original post. I think I might be able to kludge something together to grab the threads on the end of the extractor. My worry now is if I strip those threads, im done.

I am thinking of drilling a pilot hole, using a brass muzzle guide, into that last piece of dowel, and trying to get it out with a screw. the concern is that it would expand the dowel and make it harder to remove.

Skimmerhead on here is a friend of mine, he has a lathe, if all else fails, I might have to go see him and figure something out.

Right now, im doing nuthin. Im going to think on this for at least a week.

Thanks for all your help guys.

[Mooseman]

I would first remove the wood dowel if I could...you may have to drill a small hole in the center and using a sheet metal type screw to screw in and carefully pry the head of the screw using the end of the barrel and a set of diagonal cutters as the pry.
Next I would get a 1/4 inch brass brazing rod 3 ft long , and after freezing the whole action in a chest type freezer overnite, then try to tap the stuck case and extractor out with that, because as the chamber warms up the frozen brass should release.
I would NOT try to use the threads on the extractor personally.
I might also try to pry the extractor carefully in the gap shown in picture 2 against the receiver just above the extractor head using a large flat screwdriver or suitable pry tool .

Rich

[JMax]

When I had my shop I got a lot of wooden dowel stuck in barrels. I would take a piece of 1/4" brass rod, grind about 1" like a hollow ground screwdriver with the flats about 3/32" and then file a chisel point kind of like a drill bit at about 100 degrees. Now you have a wood drill that will not damage the bore and then start removing the wood using a slow speed drill. Take your time and most of the wood can be removed.Also mark the brass rod with a piece of tape where you expect the wood to end. If this drill hits the steel case remover the brass will bugger up but not damage the other parts.

I got a lot of money for dowel rod removal:-)

[wallenba]

Kroil. Tried that?

[imashooter2]

When I had my shop I got a lot of wooden dowel stuck in barrels. I would take a piece of 1/4" brass rod, grind about 1" like a hollow ground screwdriver with the flats about 3/32" and then file a chisel point kind of like a drill bit at about 100 degrees. Now you have a wood drill that will not damage the bore and then start removing the wood using a slow speed drill. Take your time and most of the wood can be removed.Also mark the brass rod with a piece of tape where you expect the wood to end. If this drill hits the steel case remover the brass will bugger up but not damage the other parts.

I got a lot of money for dowel rod removal:-)

Solid tip. Thank you! I'm not the sort to put dowels down my bore, but I do have friends that can break an anvil...

[JMax]

It is a more common problem than one would think. I had one customer stick 6 yes 6 bullets in a revolver barrel and l used the same technique to get the bullets out. Drilled out the centers and was able to drive out hollow lead tubes with a slightly larger brass rod.

[Joe504]

In my defense, I was using the same method I use to slug a barrel, which is to use 3 to 4 inch sections of hard wood dowel.

[imashooter2]

Not meaning to offend, but it is a bad idea for that purpose as well. As you have discovered, it works great! Right up until it doesn't....

[John 242]

If it makes you feel any better; when it happened to me (case stuck due to case-head separation) I ignorantly thought I could pick out the broken case with a fine screw driver.

I ended up scraping gouges into the chamber of my No.4 Mk1. I did finally get the broken case out and the gun still fired safely but, all of my brass got permanently embossed by the gouges I had carved into the walls of the chamber.

The only way to fix it was to re-barrel it.

Learn from this children.

HollowPoint

Not Recomending this as a fix, but...
Once upon a time I read a thread somewhere, probably Surplus Rifle Forum, where a guy used JB Weld to fill in the pits in a rifle chamber. He was having sticky extraction on a Enfield. No real economical solution, so the author used a very thin coat of JB Weld and leaned up the excess.

Yep, it was Surplus Rifle Forum
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=63875&sid=552225431704dcea6857c0bdb1a9060f

Not sure of the long-term viability of using JB Weld, as the thread ran its course in 2009 with no follow-up, but apparently it works.

Would JB Weld work for screw driver gouges? Beats me, but it's an idea.

[Tokarev]

Cleaning wood from the bore is a piece of cake if you know how to solder a drill bit to a rod long enough and have a pipe with OD just slightly under bore diameter that the rod/bit can use as a sleeve. Drilling out wood in small increments will leave you with a wooden pipe inside the bore. You can use a piece of strong steel wire cut and sharpened at 30 degree angle then to shove in between wood pipe and barrel to break the wooden pipe into pieces and remove them one at a time.

I can even tell you where you can get good wire: from a suitcase. Their frames are made of excellent carbon steel.

[skimmerhead]

I just added pics to the original post. I think I might be able to kludge something together to grab the threads on the end of the extractor. My worry now is if I strip those threads, im done.

I am thinking of drilling a pilot hole, using a brass muzzle guide, into that last piece of dowel, and trying to get it out with a screw. the concern is that it would expand the dowel and make it harder to remove.

Skimmerhead on here is a friend of mine, he has a lathe, if all else fails, I might have to go see him and figure something out.

Right now, im doing nuthin. Im going to think on this for at least a week.

Thanks for all your help guys.
i would try some termites, if that doesen't work all is lost the best thing to do would be to bring me the rifle and i could use it for nice door stop.

your friend! skimmerhead:D

[dragonrider]

"I am thinking of drilling a pilot hole, using a brass muzzle guide, into that last piece of dowel, and trying to get it out with a screw. the concern is that it would expand the dowel and make it harder to remove."

I like the idea but do not use a wood screw, use a steel sheet metal screw, it is not tapered which will cause you more trouble. Use a screw a couple inches long and make a piloe hole as long as the screw. be carefull of sizing your pilot hole you need enough meat for the threads to grab well. Have a way of grabing the screw once you have screwed into the wood, somehow you must now pull it out. Such a way could be developed if I had the rifle in front of me. Also you should use a bore guide for the drill.

[Longwood]

The drills they use for drilling rifle barrels are designed to self center and stay straight.
you may be able to get/rent/borrow one in 17 caliber then use a guide tube for insurance.
If I tied a screw,, I would use the sheet metal screw suggestion.
A sheet metal screw can be made into a tap with a Dremel and the little cut-off wheels.
If you try that, take the screw out of the hole often as you thread the hole so you get good clean threads.
A slap hammer can be made with all-thread or a rod with some threads on the ends.
A atachment for the screw can be made at home if you are good with a hand operated drill or have a drill press.
Sending or taking the action and barrel to a smith may be a good idea.

Aircraft Spruce sells some longer drills.

[JIMinPHX]

I once removed a stuck case who's head had separated by using dry ice. My method was to make an extractor tool that fit the case mouth exactly & then soak the barrel in dry ice for about half an hour before tapping the stuck case out. The thermal expansion rate of brass is roughly twice that of steel. Under the extreme cold of dry ice, the case shrank more than the chamber did & then it was easy to knock the brass case out with the extractor tool & a long rod.

You may need to first use one of the above mentioned methods to remove all the other stuff from inside the case first.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

+1 on the use of dry ice to remove stuck or broken case. The process is based on the different coefficient of expansion/contraction between brass and steel, Minor problem for some is the procurement of dry ice. Another issue to watch out for is the handling of it. It can/will give you a nasty "burn"....kills skin instantly on contact. An effective gimmick for extracting the broken/stuck case is to take a length of 1/4"diameter rod, make a 2 inch slit in the end of it, sharpening the outside edges of the "prongs" and then to spread them to put them under compression when they are pulled into the case/shell section. They'll dig into the inside walls of the brass and when you push the rod it'll take the fragment out with it. Especially with the dry ice the whole thing works well. LLS

[Sasquatch-1]

I am not a gunsmith and have never tried this, but for the wooden dowel, could you take a steel screw, considerably smaller then the bore, thread it into an old cleaning rod, heat it up cherry red and slowly start burning out the dowel?

[JIMinPHX]

Minor problem for some is the procurement of dry ice.

In the Phoenix area, it's available at grocery stores like Fry's or Basha's. In other areas of the US, I used to find it by looking in the yellow pages under "ice". A 5-pound block was plenty for removing the stuck case. Use it outside. It sublimates into CO2. It can asphyxiate you if you have it indoors. Also, as was warned above, it's best to wear gloves when handling it. I've used both regular leather gloves from Home Depot & "brown jersery" gloves with no problems.

[Joe504]

Thanks for all the help and advice. I am going to try Jmax's advice tonight. Pics and results tonight!

[Roosters]

Joe this won’t help with the problem you have now but maybe in the future. The case separations I’ve had simply pulled a bore snake from the muzzle end. Mine are mostly from trying to stretch case life to far but it has always worked. Good luck hope you get it tonight.

[skimmerhead]

Thanks for all the help and advice. I am going to try Jmax's advice tonight. Pics and results tonight!

i still think the termites are a good idea Joe, just bring the rifle by the house i'll fix you up buddy, after all what are friends for!

skimmerhead:p

[KCSO]

First you drill out the wood with a BRASS drill made from a long brass rod. Grind the bit center cutting with flutes about 3/4" long. Drill a little clean a little till you get to the stuck case remover. Then take the same rod and TAP the case section and the remover out of the rifle. If it doesn't tap out hit it with Kroil and it willl come out the next day. Then DON"T do it again.

You would be surprised at how many of these wood dowells I have to drill out. At least it isn't a stuck LOADED round that didn't fit the chamber.

[skimmerhead]

Hey Joe, if your not to sure or don't want to take a chance on scoring the barrel just bring the rifle over sunday and we'll get it out. i know you have a very limited amount of tooling and you know what they have in the shop over hear so its up to you. you know your allways welcome here. if we have to i can make a drill guide bushing to fit the end of the barrel and we can drill some of the dowel out and go from there. it's up to you. i am at your service sir!

skimmerhead:lovebooli

[leadman]

And a fun thing to do with the extra dry ice is to break it up and put it in a plastic gallon bottle like for bleach. Add a little water, tighten the cap and shake. Put it down and in a bit it explodes with a loud bang.
I sold ice cream with a cart when I was about 12 years old. Used to float these down the creek behind a row of new houses. Had people looking all over for the source of the noise.LOL

[MtGun44]

Not meaning to pile on the OP, but I want to remind the newbies here that this is why I
strongly recommend against slugging a barrel with a wooden dowel. It can break on a
long angle and then the two pieces are really efficient wedges, couple of hits and you have
built a monument.

I think the brass drill will do it pretty well. Can't scratch steel.

Bill

[akajun]

Hey Skim, try this, might be the only option.

Pull the barrel from the action, then you should be able to disassemble the stuck case remover. then make a cap that threads onto the end of the barrel from the breach, put a grease zerk on it, and pump it up with a grease gun, that dowel will fly out of there. Then put the extractor back together, put it in the chamber, and tap it out with a steel cleaning rod, which is how those things should be used anyway. I dont know why they even put an extractor groove on those things, Iv never had a stuck case neck that was able to pull out with the bolt.

[JMax]

Thanks for all the help and advice. I am going to try Jmax's advice tonight. Pics and results tonight!

Remember to remove the brass drill frequently to remove the wood chips and check on the bit sharpness and good luck. When the dowel is removed then you can use the brass rod to drift out the stuck parts. You should consider chilling the action to aid in drifting out the stuck parts. You will need to grind off the drill flutes. Good luck.
John

[skimmerhead]

Hey Skim, try this, might be the only option.

Pull the barrel from the action, then you should be able to disassemble the stuck case remover. then make a cap that threads onto the end of the barrel from the breach, put a grease zerk on it, and pump it up with a grease gun, that dowel will fly out of there. Then put the extractor back together, put it in the chamber, and tap it out with a steel cleaning rod, which is how those things should be used anyway. I dont know why they even put an extractor groove on those things, Iv never had a stuck case neck that was able to pull out with the bolt.

MAN! you just gave me an idea, an air compressd cross bow, you wouldn't have to kill yourself cocking the dam thing. i'll use Joe's rifle to come up with a prototype. i know i can allways count on you to inspire me to come up with some good ideas. thanks

skimmerhead[smilie=l:

[mjwcaster]

Nothing useful about the original problem but about the dry ice bombs mentioned a few posts back are now illegal in many places, felony, destructive device.
Seems that some idiots were doing these and the cold make the bottles brittle so it breaks into nice shrapnel.
We never did dry ice, but toilet cleaner (hydrochloric acid) / aluminum foil bombs, always tossed them in a lake and no one ever lost an eye.
Can we have no fun any more?
I stumbled across the legality of these things a few years ago and was surprised that something else we did as kids is now illegal.

[TCLouis]

Use Waksupi's method.

You passed your ability to remedy the situation when you used a wooden dowel.

[imashooter2]

Update?

[Tokarev]

I stumbled across the legality of these things a few years ago and was surprised that something else we did as kids is now illegal.

It's a shame we allowed the bureaucrats to justify their bloated budgets by childproofing the world instead of allowing children to worldproof themselves. Darwin is laughing at us all the way to hell.

[skimmerhead]

Update?

Joe called me yesterday to tell me he couldn't come over today, but he made a makeshift drill bit with a brass rod and had about half the lenth of the barrel left to go with drilling out the dowel, it seems the dowel is stuck probably all the way.

skimmerhead:castmine:

[imashooter2]

Ex! Glad to hear it is coming along.

[flounderman]

throwing those bombs in a lake, if they would sink, should be a good way to take a fish census?

[Joe504]

As skimmerhead said, this are moving, but im trying to take it very slow. I have been as careful as I can be so as not to make the problem worse.

One problem I do have is that Im using a 1/8 rod instead of a 1/4 because I could not find a 1/4. As I use longer and longer pieces, the rod starts to twist. So, that is also making me move slow. And lastly, I dont have bunches of free time right now.

More updates as soon as I can.

[Longwood]

As skimmerhead said, this are moving, but im trying to take it very slow. I have been as careful as I can be so as not to make the problem worse.

One problem I do have is that Im using a 1/8 rod instead of a 1/4 because I could not find a 1/4. As I use longer and longer pieces, the rod starts to twist. So, that is also making me move slow. And lastly, I dont have bunches of free time right now.

More updates as soon as I can.

I would order a larger piece of brass.
Or,,,, go to a weld supply store and buy one.
Brass rod is available if you look in the right places.
I sure hope you don't screw things up even more and it sure sounds kinda like you may by using that tiny little rod of brittle brass.

[JMax]

Ace or other hardware stores have brass rod in different diameters. Do not use too small a diameter rod.

[Roosters]

What would you take for the gun before your car and dog get stuck in it ???
:kidding:

[flounderman]

you might find an old car antenna about the right size. file some teeth in the end like a hole saw.

[Longwood]

you might find an old car antenna about the right size. file some teeth in the end like a hole saw.

Before I tried that, I would order a piece of thick wall brass tube to make a hole saw with.
Hobby shops have tubing but it is thin wall.


http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-brass-hollow-tubing/=ijdclf

http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/NavigationServlet/Raw-Materials/Metals/Brass/Brass-Round-Tubes/_/N-77dzg?cm_re=Category-_-BodyLink-_-Brass+Round+Tubes

http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/NavigationServlet/Raw-Materials/Metals/Brass/Brass-Round-Rods/_/N-77dzl?cm_re=Category-_-BodyLink-_-Brass+Round+Rods

[JIMinPHX]

It's a shame we allowed the bureaucrats to justify their bloated budgets by childproofing the world instead of allowing children to worldproof themselves. Darwin is laughing at us all the way to hell.

so true

[Multigunner]

It occured to me that if a brass rod long enough could not be found making a brass cutting head threaded on one end to fit a aluminum cleaning rod might work just as well.

Securing the threaded joints with expoxy or JB Weld and maybe drilling a small hole at each joint for a brass pin should prevent the head or rod sections from coming unscrewed when backing out to clear away chips.

If the barrel were off the action and bore cleared you might try heating the barrel at the chamber, not too hot, just too hot to touch without a glove. Barrels get that hot during long strings of firing so a little heat should not effect the barrel.
That would probably loosen up the stuck case section.

Only time I've seen a case stick that tight was when the chamber was jugged.
Some No.4 rifles developed a slight swelling and elongation of the chamber due to the shoulder not being trimmed properly and excessive force used to clock in the barrel.
This caused stresslines in the steel of the shank, and on proof firing the chamber shoulder moved forwards.
I've fired a few No.4 rifles that produced fired cases with a hemispherical shoulder and a noticably short neck. I figure these were rifles with the over torqued barrels.
To prevent this they instituted the breeching up washer system for mass production.

[fixit]

i've not tried it, but i've read that you can use dry ice, dropped in from the muzzle and applied to the case head to force the casing to contract away from the chamber walls.

[Walter Laich]

signing on to see how this ends

w

[Joe504]

Still working on this. Im drilling slowly with the brass rod. Im moving very slow trying to get the wood out. Also, my free time is limited right now.

[nanuk]

throwing those bombs in a lake, if they would sink, should be a good way to take a fish census?

I heard lime in a sealer with the tin lid.... 1/2 full, punch 3 holes, weighted with a rock...

standby with the net

[rockrat]

I wonder that when you get the wood dowel out and the bore cleaned out and the stuck case remover out, you could use another wood dowel to plug the bore at the chamber end and put a small piece of dry ice in the chamber.

That might shrink the brass enough, that after a few minutes, it might be easy to remove

[Longwood]

I wonder that when you get the wood dowel out and the bore cleaned out and the stuck case remover out, you could use another wood dowel to plug the bore at the chamber end and put a small piece of dry ice in the chamber.

That might shrink the brass enough, that after a few minutes, it might be easy to remove

If it is really stuck.I would also heat it as hot as I dared.
Steel will shrink the brass a little when it expands.
I would then put the gun in the deepfreeze overnight after it cooled down to room temperature. Then work with it after it is back up to room temperature..

[Tokarev]

If it is really stuck.I would also heat it as hot as I dared.
Steel will shrink the brass a little when it expands.
Steel expands more than brass, so just heating the breech won't shrink the case.

[Longwood]

Steel expands more than brass, so just heating the breech won't shrink the case.

I have shrunk numerous bronze and brass bushing by heating the housing it is in.

[skimmerhead]

:cbpour:
Hey Skim, try this, might be the only option.

Pull the barrel from the action, then you should be able to disassemble the stuck case remover. then make a cap that threads onto the end of the barrel from the breach, put a grease zerk on it, and pump it up with a grease gun, that dowel will fly out of there. Then put the extractor back together, put it in the chamber, and tap it out with a steel cleaning rod, which is how those things should be used anyway. I dont know why they even put an extractor groove on those things, Iv never had a stuck case neck that was able to pull out with the bolt.

Joe has been real busy lately and hasn't had time to work on his gun, so he came to the house sunday and we spent the afternoon working on various things and guns and what not. he left the rifle with me and i'll work on it for him. i'll try getting the dowel out before i go to the method you describe, the thing is the dowel has the extractor jammed tight in the chamber and it won't budge. so i'll make something to get the wood out. i showed him that winchester i got from you he was drooling over that thing. you need to come down one day when Joe's here and we'll maybe do some shooting or something. will let you know when i get it fixed.
skimmerhead :cbpour:

[Tokarev]

I have shrunk numerous bronze and brass bushing by heating the housing it is in.

Sorry, you are right, I got numbers backwards in my head.
Correct numbers are steel 13, brass 18.7, bronze 18.

[Longwood]

Sorry, you are right, I got numbers backwards in my head.
Correct numbers are steel 13, brass 18.7, bronze 18.

It may only work when the part is heated from the outside.
I found it out when we were trying to weld bosses into some loader booms with brass pre-installed before welding.
On the first try, all of the bushings were loose the next day when it had cooled down.
We switched to installing the bushings after the bosses were welded in, and all was well.
I even tried it on some really big ones that were about 8" in diameter and 4" long and it worked on them also.

[Tokarev]

Yes, it makes perfect sense. Thermal expansion of brass or bronze will swage down the part.
The reason I contested your post was that I mistakenly believed that steel had 18 thermal expansion and brass 13. I did material course decades ago and forgot which was which. These days I am mostly concerned with lead versus WW alloy :)

[JMax]

Still working on this. Im drilling slowly with the brass rod. Im moving very slow trying to get the wood out. Also, my free time is limited right now.
I hope you did not get flooded.

[Joe504]

The rifle is still with Skimmer. I talked to him today and he lost power, but did not flood. I have some minor house damage, but we are fine.

[MtGun44]

Glad to hear both are in good shape.

Bill

[JMax]

Excellent news for both.