.54 Soft HP or Hard Cast Wide Meplat for Elk and shot placement options.

[4given]

I will be using my T/C Renegade in .54 for a cow elk early this fall in Idaho. I have hunted for several decades with centerfire but never have hunted with a muzzleloader. I will be using genuine black powder, musket caps and a conical bullet. I will not shoot at anything over 100 yards and I will try my best to keep my shot around 50 yards or less if possible.

I have some 425 gr Hornady Great Plains HP but am thinking of trying a 400 Grain Hoffman & Wright "Accu-Mag" which is a harder cast R.E.A.L. design with a wide Mepat.


So my question is about shot placement and bullet type. Where is the best place to shoot a cow elk with this kind of set up? I DON'T want to chase a wounded cow elk all over creation. I really want to anchor the thing in it's tracks as much as possible.

If I go for a shoulder shot and break down the front shoulder is either bullet likely to continue on and penetrate into the vitals?

If I go for a double lung shot will either of these bullets still have enough juice to perhaps break the shoulder on the other side?

Maybe if I am presented with a close shot I do go for a neck shot providing my marksmanship skills are up to snuff?

I'm interested in hearing you opinions especially those of you who have "been there, done that". :-)

[Omnivore]

Hmm. Haven't stot elk, but lots of deer with a 50 cal round ball. Even the roughly 180 grain RB is a decent penetrator. One went through the far side scapula, but then a white tail scapula isn't a lot to penetrate. One shot penetrated 25 inches before coming to rest under the hide on the far side-- busted the gut, the liver, the diaphram, one lung, missed the heart by a couple inches, glanced off a rib and stopped. That buck ran a few hundred yards before lying down and never getting up. 110 grains Goex 2F from a 24" barrel.

The only "anchoring" of the animal I ever saw was when one 50 cal ball glanced the spine after wrecking both lungs, in a quartering away shot, cutting two ribs along the way (Zap!). Another time, a ball blew the heart wide open, such that you could lay it out flat like a pancake. She still ran about 40 yards, with two blown lungs and no heart. I try not to shoot through the shoulders because there's some good meat there.

As far as HP verses wide meplat; Dunno. Someone who's tried one, or both, will have to chime in. Either one could certainly get the job done.

I bet you IdahoRon could tell you much more.

I don't think you'll have to worry about penetration.

[Tatume]

In my experience hollow point bullets kill well but destroy too much meat. Bullets with a wide flat point like the Lyman 451114 45 caliber bullet kill like lightning and are not so destructive. Penetration might be better too, but both usually penetrate completely, so there's not much from which to choose. If it was me, I'd go with the flat point bullet.

Take care, Tom

[waksupi]

Stick with patched round ball, to the heart/lung area. I've seen bullets flatten out on neck shots, needing more than one to keep them down.

[Tatume]

Hi Ric,

I like PRB too, and hunt with them often. However, the fellow asked a specific question about hollow point versus flat point bullets.

Take care, Tom

[Mr Peabody]

The Great Plains ought to work well enough, there's not a lot of depth to the cavity in relation to the overall length of the bullet. I don't like the black belt hollowpoints for Elk. I do like the black belt flat points. I'm going to use the same rifle you have and I'll be using the 380gr REAL. Some of the men I hunt with use 54 rb to good effect. I find the conicals a little quicker to reload with and I like the extra horsepower. What unit do you figure on hunting?

[horsesoldier]

I would stick with the flat point. I use a great plains hollow point in fifty caliber a few years ago on a deer and I didn't get near the penetration I was thinking I would get.

[waksupi]

Hi Ric,

I like PRB too, and hunt with them often. However, the fellow asked a specific question about hollow point versus flat point bullets.

Take care, Tom

Yeah, I know, I just brought up PRB since they work most dependably.

[405]

I will be using my T/C Renegade in .54 for a cow elk early this fall in Idaho. I have hunted for several decades with centerfire but never have hunted with a muzzleloader. I will be using genuine black powder, musket caps and a conical bullet. I will not shoot at anything over 100 yards and I will try my best to keep my shot around 50 yards or less if possible.

:-)

You just described 99% of the equation for success- good on you.

The heavier conicals like you describe will likely give full penetration no matter the nose design. Best shot placement is heart/lung area. The only way any of the large (high sectional density) conicals might stay in is if the heaviest parts of both shoulders are hit. Shot placement is the most important.

[4given]

The Great Plains ought to work well enough, there's not a lot of depth to the cavity in relation to the overall length of the bullet. I don't like the black belt hollowpoints for Elk. I do like the black belt flat points. I'm going to use the same rifle you have and I'll be using the 380gr REAL. Some of the men I hunt with use 54 rb to good effect. I find the conicals a little quicker to reload with and I like the extra horsepower. What unit do you figure on hunting?

PM sent

[Gray Fox]

I have a .54 Hawken and my brother has a Renegade like yours. We have found that the regular TC Maxi Ball shoots the best, having tried the Great Plains bullet and the TC Maxi Hunter in both guns. 85 to 90 grains of 2f should do what you want to do to any elk within your range. We shoot these into Georgia clay banks at 100 yards and can't dig deep enough to recover a slug. More powder equals more recoil and makes it much harder to get comfortable with shooting from a variety of positions you may need to use. If you don't use a shooting staff now I suggest you cut a suitable one the next time you're in the woods and learn how much it can help you shoot under field conditons.

I agree that the heart/double lung shot is the best and using a staff will help when you're trying to get your breath and heart rate settled down to make the one great shot. Hope this helps. GF

[frontier gander]

behind the shoulder, taking out both lungs.

[Good Cheer]

4given,
Two thoughts for you.
First off, if you are hunting at that close range you will probably be best served by trying to have the projectile strike the elk going as fast as you can manage to have happen. The reason is that the rate of displacement is all that matters and you already have diameter.
Second, you have the diameter and do not need expansion. You want penetration to take advantage of the diameter and velocity.

Recommendation:
Get some hardened lead balls cast from a .530" diameter mold and try loading them maximum charge with different thicknesses of greasy lubed patches until you find a patch thickness that is adequately accurate. That way you will most likely have better accuracy than (or maybe only equal to) lubed bullets, flatter trajectory, less recoil and more destructive tissue displacement and penetration as good as a heavier bullet. I like a sling and a shooting staff (hoe or rake in the back yard!).

That said, I love muzzleloading. I shoot round ball, heavy boolits, flinters, percussion, fast twist, slow twist, smoothbores...

[4given]

I have a .54 Hawken and my brother has a Renegade like yours. We have found that the regular TC Maxi Ball shoots the best, having tried the Great Plains bullet and the TC Maxi Hunter in both guns. 85 to 90 grains of 2f should do what you want to do to any elk within your range. We shoot these into Georgia clay banks at 100 yards and can't dig deep enough to recover a slug. More powder equals more recoil and makes it much harder to get comfortable with shooting from a variety of positions you may need to use. If you don't use a shooting staff now I suggest you cut a suitable one the next time you're in the woods and learn how much it can help you shoot under field conditons.

I agree that the heart/double lung shot is the best and using a staff will help when you're trying to get your breath and heart rate settled down to make the one great shot. Hope this helps. GF

The shooting staff is a great idea & I will use one for sure!

I looked for the T/C Maxi Ball in .54 before I bought the Great Plains but it looks like they disconinued them, I can't even find them on line. Do you know of a source?

[4given]

4given,
Two thoughts for you.
First off, if you are hunting at that close range you will probably be best served by trying to have the projectile strike the elk going as fast as you can manage to have happen. The reason is that the rate of displacement is all that matters and you already have diameter.
Second, you have the diameter and do not need expansion. You want penetration to take advantage of the diameter and velocity.

Recommendation:
Get some hardened lead balls cast from a .530" diameter mold and try loading them maximum charge with different thicknesses of greasy lubed patches until you find a patch thickness that is adequately accurate. That way you will most likely have better accuracy than (or maybe only equal to) lubed bullets, flatter trajectory, less recoil and more destructive tissue displacement and penetration as good as a heavier bullet. I like a sling and a shooting staff (hoe or rake in the back yard!).

That said, I love muzzleloading. I shoot round ball, heavy boolits, flinters, percussion, fast twist, slow twist, smoothbores...

I've got some round balls but I just can't bring myself to use them. I guess I have read too much Elmer Keith and have more faith in BIG & HEAVY in this case.

[Good Cheer]

I hear you man. And I don't disagree with the philosophy.

[Gray Fox]

4given:

I cast my own. You might be able to buy the mold from TC or Lyman makes one. It is very satisfying to see a pile of the shiney big boolits that you've cast yourself. I have the molds for both .50 and .54 Maxi-Balls. One of the local Army Navy stores here (Atlanta area) still sells the yellow 15 round boxes of Maxi-Balls so I know they are still sold. However, at $15/box I will happily cast my own and pay myself instead!

You will be amazed at how versatile a shooting/walking staff will be for you and you can use it from almost any position but prone. I like to grab the staff with my left hand at a workable height on the shaft and then lay the rifle forearm across my wrist. This works especially well from both a kneeling or sitting position. Both of these positions make it easier to get under low hanging branches and make a shot that will blow right through the barrel chest of an elk. Best of luck on your hunt. GF

[Tatume]

You will be amazed at how versatile a shooting/walking staff will be for you and you can use it from almost any position but prone. I like to grab the staff with my left hand at a workable height on the shaft and then lay the rifle forearm across my wrist.

Absolutely! Mine is made from one-inch red oak, with a chisel point at the end that has been fire hardened. The other end has a 3/8" hole and a piece of three-strand rope has been butt spliced in a loop through the hole. Sometimes I put my left hand in the loop, and sometimes I grasp the shaft with two little fingers curled to the heel of my hand (two fingers and the thumb on the gun), depending on the shot I need to make. Also, I practice at the range with the shooting staff. It is hugely superior to shooting offhand. I've made some nice shots on game using it, and had to make staffs for my friends as a result.

Take care, Tom

[Good Cheer]

Ran some numbers for TC and Lyman barrels through the Greenhill calculator just for fun.
.50 caliber 0.62" long is 60" twist.
.50 caliber 0.77" long is 48" twist.
.50 caliber 1.15" long is 32" twist.
.54 caliber 0.72" long is 60" twist.
.54 caliber 0.90" long is 48" twist.
.54 caliber 1.35" long is 32" twist.

[4given]

Absolutely! Mine is made from one-inch red oak, with a chisel point at the end that has been fire hardened. The other end has a 3/8" hole and a piece of three-strand rope has been butt spliced in a loop through the hole. Sometimes I put my left hand in the loop, and sometimes I grasp the shaft with two little fingers curled to the heel of my hand (two fingers and the thumb on the gun), depending on the shot I need to make. Also, I practice at the range with the shooting staff. It is hugely superior to shooting offhand. I've made some nice shots on game using it, and had to make staffs for my friends as a result.

Take care, Tom

Sounds nice! Got a picture?

[4given]

4given:

One of the local Army Navy stores here (Atlanta area) still sells the yellow 15 round boxes of Maxi-Balls so I know they are still sold. However, at $15/box I will happily cast my own and pay myself instead!



Yeah I just can't find them in .54

[4given]

The Great Plains ought to work well enough, there's not a lot of depth to the cavity in relation to the overall length of the bullet. I don't like the black belt hollowpoints for Elk. I do like the black belt flat points. I'm going to use the same rifle you have and I'll be using the 380gr REAL. Some of the men I hunt with use 54 rb to good effect. I find the conicals a little quicker to reload with and I like the extra horsepower. What unit do you figure on hunting?

Why do you like the 380gr REAL? Accurate?

[Tatume]

Sounds nice! Got a picture?

I'll take one tomorrow.

[rodwha]

Good Cheer:

Ran some numbers for TC and Lyman barrels through the Greenhill calculator just for fun.
.50 caliber 0.62" long is 60" twist.
.50 caliber 0.77" long is 48" twist.
.50 caliber 1.15" long is 32" twist.
.54 caliber 0.72" long is 60" twist.
.54 caliber 0.90" long is 48" twist.
.54 caliber 1.35" long is 32" twist."

Are these ideal projectile lengths for each twist rate?

[Swede44mag]

I have some 425 gr Hornady Great Plains HP but am thinking of trying a 400 Grain Hoffman & Wright "Accu-Mag" which is a harder cast R.E.A.L. design with a wide Mepat.

I have shot many REAL boolits in my different BP rifles over the years.
If they are not cast dead soft I haven't been able to get them down the barrel.

[Good Cheer]

Good Cheer:

Ran some numbers for TC and Lyman barrels through the Greenhill calculator just for fun.
.50 caliber 0.62" long is 60" twist.
.50 caliber 0.77" long is 48" twist.
.50 caliber 1.15" long is 32" twist.
.54 caliber 0.72" long is 60" twist.
.54 caliber 0.90" long is 48" twist.
.54 caliber 1.35" long is 32" twist."

Are these ideal projectile lengths for each twist rate?

I think the Greenhill numbers are just ballpark figures for a theoretical maximum length of the bore diameter portion of a theoretical projectile, but there's lots of other factors involved in a boolit remaining stable in flight. Which reminds me to get around to trying out a .54 minie in the flinter GPR!

[rodwha]

So it is theoretical max length and not ideal length?
Gonna need to hang on to the calipers I've been lent for a while!

[4given]

I have shot many REAL boolits in my different BP rifles over the years.
If they are not cast dead soft I haven't been able to get them down the barrel.

I have called & emailed Hoffman & Wright and they seen to be out of business now so I cant get them anyway.