First Keith bullets

[MrXrings]

Cast my first 429421's today, I have to say some pretty impressive looking bullets. Had one cavity a bit sticky in the 4cav mould and the crimp groves didn't fill out very well but I'm impressed. Got a 358429 on the way too.

[gray wolf]

Had one cavity a bit sticky in the 4cav mould and the crimp groves didn't fill out very well but I'm impressed.
Um, Exactly what was it that impressed you ??
Sorry I couldn't resist asking.

[MrXrings]

Meant that in a good way. There were some issues, new mould and all, but some pretty impressive bullets dropped out of it. Up to this point I've been casting .38/357 in Lee TL moulds. These seem like well defined sharp edged precise shards of metal in comparison.

[DrCaveman]

MrX

I felt the same way after I got a single cavity 358429. The boolits seemed refined, and just sorta made sense. And darn it, they were pretty!

The big lube groove also inspired me to branch out beyond lee tumble lubing, and I am very happy with that.

Best thing of all was that my first 6 shot group set my new personal best (at the time)!

Happy casting lubing and shooting!

[runfiverun]

look for a little burr in that cavity.
in my square groove 429 4 cav i have number 2 and number 3 act up a bit untill i hit " the" temp then they just tip right out of the mold.
if i can keep the mold in that temp range things run along just fine, a bit over or under that temp and i have to give the hinge a whack.

[44man]

Cast my first 429421's today, I have to say some pretty impressive looking bullets. Had one cavity a bit sticky in the 4cav mould and the crimp groves didn't fill out very well but I'm impressed. Got a 358429 on the way too.
Yes, nice looking boolit but it is only appearance. That was a good boolit and I used it for years but there are better designs today.
It is a cross between a wad cutter and a hunting boolit, does neither great.
Elmer wanted round holes in paper and a flat nose for game with a boolit that would shoot farther then a wad cutter. He was right but never came to terms that the shoulder was not needed at all.
It is a very popular boolit to this day and the 429421 was the best. I still love the thing. Yet it is not perfect.
But then the softer lead he used would bump the boolit into a WLN before it hit the forcing cone anyway.
I am old enough to have followed Elmer until he died. He believed larger calibers for the game was better and I agree. He was a real hunter.
But the stop at the semi wad cutter will be a mystery to me.
If it worked so well why is there not a single jacketed revolver bullet made today in a semi wad cutter?
It should be retired.
I admit a box full of loads does look great and mean looking but steerage in the gun is lacking. Not the throats but the cone and bore.

[Char-Gar]

The Keith bullet has allot going for it. Keith contended that the full diameter front driving band entered the cylinder throat and kept the bullet aligned. That thinking is not fully accepted today.

When the LBT designs came along, they were touted as better than the Keith. Some of the early fans of those designs have walked it back a bit since their first impression. These designs do great at full magnum speeds and kill well. But drop the velocity back and their accuracy degrades as well.

The Keith will hold it's accuracy from very mild target loads to full snort magnum loads.

I think we all understand that Keith's enthusiasm for the sharp wadcutter shoulder as a game killer is not well founded. In this regard LBT was correct, the meplat is the thing.

All in all, the Keith bullets are still good bullets and viable for today's shooters.

[paul h]

If you consider 950 fps dropped back from magnum velocities, then I'll contend that an LBT LFN will shoot every bit as well as a SWC, if not better. I like LFN's, WFN's, rf's, SWC's and full wadcutters, but I've found blanket statements about how well they work and their limitations most often do not hold true. My accuracy standards are 1" at 25yds is good, 1" at 50yds is great, and I'm still the stumbling block for shooting 1" at 100 yds. I've found in a good gun, most bullets can produce good results, and an exceptional gun is capable of great results. Trying to get good results in a magnum at 700-1500 fps is going to be a challenge, and I'm a firm believer that when you want good results at milder levels, you need to drop down to a smaller capacity case.

You need to test the bullet design in a given gun to see how it works in that application. Don't get hung on up what bullet design is supposed to work best or it's limitations. The target never lies as to how well, or poorly your gun shoots it. I've had guns that will shoot most any cast bullet well with a worked up load, and guns that won't shoot anything well, and some in between.

[MrXrings]

These will be launched from single action revolvers that one could say aren't state of the art either but to me quite fitting. The two just seem to go together especially the ruger 44 spl. The colts are out of my budget for the time being.

[44man]

The Keith bullet has allot going for it. Keith contended that the full diameter front driving band entered the cylinder throat and kept the bullet aligned. That thinking is not fully accepted today.

When the LBT designs came along, they were touted as better than the Keith. Some of the early fans of those designs have walked it back a bit since their first impression. These designs do great at full magnum speeds and kill well. But drop the velocity back and their accuracy degrades as well.

The Keith will hold it's accuracy from very mild target loads to full snort magnum loads.

I think we all understand that Keith's enthusiasm for the sharp wadcutter shoulder as a game killer is not well founded. In this regard LBT was correct, the meplat is the thing.

All in all, the Keith bullets are still good bullets and viable for today's shooters.
I agree, it still works and I still love the looks. The 429421 and 358156 will always be be in my memories even though the 358156 was not a Keith design. It shot superb from my model 27.
Too many tweaks with a good boolit from mold makers. All are just not equal.
I just find it easier to find accuracy without the shoulder and better forcing cone alignment. Throat alignment is secondary.
My feelings only.
Back in the day it was nothing to take a shot at a woodchuck at better then 500 yards with a revolver. We never knew a revolver was made for 10 yards! :drinks:
Yeah, yeah, I took hair off a chuck at 550 yards with my flat top and the 429421! 22 gr of 2400.
But we loved Elmer and I still do. A real down to earth man that taught us what a revolver could do.
Yet, we have advanced.

[williamwaco]

Cast my first 429421's today, I have to say some pretty impressive looking bullets. .

I LOVE that bullet.

See these loads:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=152007

[Thumbcocker]

I have not been able to get lfn or wfn boolits to shoot for beans except at full tilt loads. Not so with Keith's. Brian Pearce mentioned that the front band does do some cutting but he did not elaborate. I read an article by Ross Siefried where his tests showed the band did no cut. I can't say myself. My experience is that Keith's have a wider range of velocity where they will shoot accurately than do lfn or wfn designs. YMMV.

[runfiverun]

the 44 special and the 429421 are an excellent fit.
the skeeter load is about a perfect fit of power and recoil and economy.

[MtGun44]

Got Keiths and LBTs both, Keiths shoot more accurately in my .44s. LBTs are OK, but never
found one that would match my 429421 or H&G503 at 50 yds. Only in .357 have I matched Keith
performance with an LBT style, and it is a Lee 358 158 RF beveled base. Shoots as good
as RCBS 358 150 KT or 358429 Lyman in several versions, solid and hp.

To each his own, not try to convince someone that has decided, just reporting my results.

Try to see if there is a burr on the sticky cavity, using magnification and good light. If you don't
find one, try some fine lapping compound on a spinning bullet in that sticky cavity. Won't usually
take very much.

Bill

[white eagle]

Cast my first 429421's today, I have to say some pretty impressive looking bullets. Had one cavity a bit sticky in the 4cav mould and the crimp groves didn't fill out very well but I'm impressed. Got a 358429 on the way too.

If its a new mold give it time it will break in and you will be dropping all good boolits
as far as which boolit is a better design it don't make one bit of difference as long as you are happy with your shooting
keep after it :bigsmyl2:

[EDK]

Uncle Elmer designed his classic boolits BEFORE there was a 357 or 44 MAGNUM. There can be issues with the longer nose in some guns when you use magnum casings....N frame 357 SMITH & WESSONS; my discontinued favorites.

The KEITH design boolits were designed to do ALL THINGS WELL, but not as good in a specialized need as a boolit designed for that SINGLE purpose. They are a compromise in some areas, but still perform.

For new shooters, you might be interested to learn Elmer and his family lived a long way from town until he was approximately 50 years old. He wasn't wealthy either, so he didn't spend the money on moulds that I/we do...and there wasn't near the selection then that we have now. I've got a "worn to pieces" copy of SIXGUNS and a not so abused copy of HELL, I WAS THERE that are inscribed and autographed...wish I'd gotten all of his books while he was selling them on SHOTGUNS NEWS, etc. Reading those books will enlighten you about how good we have it currently and give you an appreciation for Elmer and his generation.

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:

[bigboredad]

if you are happy and it sounds like you are and you like the way your bullets looks and it sounds like you are then that's what is important what other say doesn't mean squat cast a boat load and shoot as much and as often as you can and you will love the design even more.

[44man]

Uncle Elmer designed his classic boolits BEFORE there was a 357 or 44 MAGNUM. There can be issues with the longer nose in some guns when you use magnum casings....N frame 357 SMITH & WESSONS; my discontinued favorites.

The KEITH design boolits were designed to do ALL THINGS WELL, but not as good in a specialized need as a boolit designed for that SINGLE purpose. They are a compromise in some areas, but still perform.

For new shooters, you might be interested to learn Elmer and his family lived a long way from town until he was approximately 50 years old. He wasn't wealthy either, so he didn't spend the money on moulds that I/we do...and there wasn't near the selection then that we have now. I've got a "worn to pieces" copy of SIXGUNS and a not so abused copy of HELL, I WAS THERE that are inscribed and autographed...wish I'd gotten all of his books while he was selling them on SHOTGUNS NEWS, etc. Reading those books will enlighten you about how good we have it currently and give you an appreciation for Elmer and his generation.

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:
I agree with you, he was quite the man.
My only thing with the Keith boolit is just pure accuracy. The boolit kills as good as a WLN and it does carry over distance. Back in 1956 and on, I was shooting the 429421 better then 500 yards.
Before then my model 27 with the first pistol scope could hit very, very small targets at 100 yards using the 358156 HP. It has to be the best .357 boolit. Yet in the end, the 27 was PERFECT.
Now with my larger bores, I have tried a dozen semi-wad cutters with dismal results. They just don't seem to work scaled up.
Does the shoulder cut in game? Maybe if you shoot it very slow. Once velocity gets high, the pressure wave off the flat nose will move tissue away from the shoulder. The nose meplat is still the killer.
I get much better accuracy with a WLN, WFN and RNFP. The shoulder really is not needed.
Steerage at the cone is just too important. Even those that want a revolver locked up like a bank vault will suffer accuracy problems and gun wear. The cylinder MUST have a tiny bit of play. A tight cylinder must have perfect alignment for each throat.
A boolit that aligns in the throats with a band actually has less accuracy affect then it does at the cone to pull the cylinder into line. That is where the ogive of the boolit does the work. The ogive of a Keith does not contact the cone.
Shoot a boolit too soft and it will not pull the cylinder either, it just gets smashed on one side, it is what causes the fliers.