.359 173gr Keith boolit mold

[Catshooter]

Well, I've been following (and buying some) of the 6 cavity group buys happening here. I think all I need to be fully set up (yea, sure) is a Keith 6-cavity for the .357 mag.

Now, I want a true Keith semi-wadcutter, with the squared off corners, but I don't think that they have to be a full 90 degrees, a shallow draft angle would work fine. I want about 170-175 grains with WW, plain base.

.45.2.1, are you here? Can you cook up a drawing for it?

If there's enough interest, I'll set up a thread and run the group buy.

If it would help people with the money end of things, we could set this up to go in August or September.

Well?


Cat

[Willbird]

I'd be in for 1 as long as it is plain base like Elmer would have it.


Bill

[Bodydoc447]

Count me in for a plain based one.

Doc

[45 2.1]

There are allot of "Keith" 357 bullets out there. Some shoot pretty well and some shoot poorly. The Lyman 357429 is the Classic Keith, but was designed for the 38 spl. If crimped in the groove, it is only suitable for the Blackhawks because it is too long for most 357s. I have a square groove one that barely casts .358" and it doesn't shoot nearly as well as some others. The best 357 bullets I have shot for accuracy are the Lyman 358156 (a 158 gr. 2 crimp groove gas check) and the Saeco 353 (a 180 gr. plain base round flat). I have a very nice round flat design set up for 38 spl. / 357 mag. Take a look and see if it suits. If you don't like this one, I could try a modified 358156 more along keith lines.

[Catshooter]

The 358429 is exactly what I want. Isn't it a shame it won't fit (crimped in the crimping groove) in both the Smith 27 & 28? But, it will fit crimped properly in the 19/66 and 586/686. And that's what I want.

45 2.1, that drawing looks good, but if I ask really really nice, can you do one up for a proper Keith? Pretty please? I can dig into the book Sixguns and post Keith's description if it'll help.

You are correct that it was designed for the .38, and a fine boolit it makes for one. I want the proper Keith for all the reasons he used as design criteria. And finding the true Keith is not hard in .44 but I can't find one anywhere for the .38..357, esp in six or more cavities.

I recently purchased a Lyman four cavity 358429, hoping to get something Keith would recognise. Not. The bands are smaller, the nose seems shorter, the front edge of the driving band is angled (!) fer crying out loud. I will give it this, the boolits dropped from the mould with no effort at all.

My understanding of Keith's original is thus:

Meplat is important, and while great big kill better, they don't fly as true over long range. So I'd rather it was a normal size.
Long nose for better balence, long range accuracy.
Driving band full OD, with 90 top corner for better cutting of the target and better scraping of the bore. The band is wide, like .125 or so.
Wide grease groove. And I don't think he'd mind the two inner corners of the groove being radiused, say.05 or so.
Bottom band, wide, .125 full OD, flat base, no GC.

I know this bullet won't drop from the mould like a modifed Keith, but I can live with that.

I will go out to the shop and dig out the Lyman and do some measuring.

Thanks.


Cat

[45 2.1]

Here is a more proper Keith version that will work in all 38 spl. and 357 mag.

[Catshooter]

45,

That too is a nice design. However, I am after one with just one crimp groove and a longer nose. That crimp groove looks like a very good design.

Thanks.


Cat

[StarMetal]

Catshooter,

Here is a 150 gr RCBS SWC. It's a very accurate bullet. Perhaps 45 2.1 can scale it up to 170 gr or you.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Cat-
You had better start looking at your cylinder dimensions and limits from crimp to cylinder end/cylinder forcing cone and throat diameter. What your asking for doesn't fit in 80% of 357s out there. Start measureing and tell me it will work. There are 24 other people that have guns that this will have to fit also.

[Catshooter]

Ya, something like that, Starmetal.

Ok, 45, I'll do that. Probably tomorrow. I know that the amount of boolit hanging out of the cartridge case is overlong for many .357s, but not all.

I'll get back to ya.


Cat

[Poygan]

45 2.1: I like the design you posted with the two crimping grooves. Would be interested in the plain base version.

[45 2.1]

45 2.1: I like the design you posted with the two crimping grooves. Would be interested in the plain base version.

So would I, all thats needed is someone to run the ordering and collect money. I like the SWC the best of the two. It is a heavier, plain base version of the Lyman 358156.

[Bodydoc447]

I would probably pop for either design. BUT my (strong) preference would be for the plain based 358156 design. This is a classic. Heck, I would even go for the GC design but that is already available in a 4 banger from Lyman.

Doc

[Dutch4122]

To be honest, I can see a use for both the 1st and 2nd designs that 45 2.1 put up. The RNFP style for use in .38/.357 levergun loads and the Keith type in revolvers. Seems like if we were to run a group buy on both designs I might be persuaded to order 1 of each.

Anybody else?

[Bodydoc447]

Dangnabbit!! Dutch is right. I would have to go one each for both of the designs. Ramen noodles for a couple of months is a small price to pay for thousands of Keith type bullets, I suppose.

Doc

[Catshooter]

Well, 45, I done looked. I have only an old Ruger Blackhawk and a Smith 686 in .357. I have some 358429 from an old Lyman hp mould that are loaded in .357 brass. They fit just fine in both pistols. In fact, the Smith has a longer cylinder than the Ruger, which surprised me.

To everyone else who took the time to post to this thread, thank you. However, the group buy I'm trying to put together here is for this Keith bullet. Maybe some other time I or someone else can put together a buy for one of 45 2.1's designs. They look good too.

So, anybody else out there want what I want? I've got good Lyman 359429 moulds, but they are all one-holers. I am totally spoiled now by these 6-holers, they're great!

Chime in!


Cat

[45 2.1]

I've got good Lyman 359429 moulds, but they are all one-holers.
Cat

If you had a good sample to begin with, why didn't you say so. PM me for my address so you can send me some to measure and draw.

[Beau Cassidy]

Interested but could do without the top crimp groove. Would prefer the longer nose.

Beau

[mroliver77]

As I understand it Keith did later concede that the 358429 was kind of heavy and could be scaled back. I have a borrowed Lee 175 gr that shoots like mad. I would be in for a "true" 358429. I need it to drop @ at least .360" or I cant use it. Jay

[Bear4570]

I'm new to these but sure would be interested in getting either or both of the designs above. My little Rossi 92 is just cryin for that RNFP.
Count me in.

[Catshooter]

mro,

If we do this I will order up a .360 diameter with wheel weights drop from the mould boolit. It's so much easier to size down, than up.

45/70,

Nope. This thread is for a true blue Keith, not no sissy RFN :) !

Maybe we'll get to the RFN later, or someone else can do the group buy for it.


Cat

[gregg]

Pure Keith .362 with WW would be fine. All (Most)my 357's run
.360. Count me in

[mroliver77]

Catshooter,
The Keith version at least .360" in WW and I am in.If you need to fatten it up to make anybody else happy all the better but I can live with .360. No need to hurry on this one either. hehe

[Bodydoc447]

Count me in for a keith mold.

Doc

[Catshooter]

It will be at least .360, maybe we'll ask for .361.

I've sent 45 2.1 some samples, he should get them about Monday. He'll do up a drawing.


Cat

[Cayoot]

Count me in for one of these too!

[ddixie884]

I'd be interested in a 358429 at .360 with a full size, flat bottom, lube groove. I'd like to see a drawing, with dimensions, before committing. 45 2.1 makes a nice drawing. How much for each one with an order for 100?

[Catshooter]

How much for each one with an order for 100?

I'm not sure I understand the q, ddixie. I haven't yet contacted Lee for a price, but so far with shipping we've all been paying $56 per mould. That's with a 25 mould minimum.

45 should have the samples I sent him sometime this week, then he'll do the drawing. It'll have the full sized flat bottom lube groove.


Cat

[ddixie884]

I just ask how much they would cost with an order of 100 molds, I saw it somewhere on this forum, but I can't find it.

[45 2.1]

Someone else (Willbird?) said that 100 counts would be about $41 each.

[TCLouis]

Between those here at 41 bucks and those on the other bidding sites at a PROFIT, 100 would go pretty quickly!
Please stop coming up with INTERESTING 6 banger molds!

[Buckshot]

.............If you order one custom mould it's $100 for machine setup and retail mould cost, for 1, 2 or 6 cavity, or hollowbase/hollowpoint.

At 25+ moulds, Lee forgives the $100 setup fee and you pay current retail for each mould ordered (+$4 total shipment for insurance)

At 100+ moulds Lee forgives the setup fee and you get the moulds for the current DEALER cost.

EVERY custom mould order I've seen go in, and I've seen every one for the past 8 years (amongst this gang anyway) you could have sold another duplicate order, or at least another 20 or so minimum.

I would have liked to have ordered another 10-15 extra of the just finished 6.5mm order, but finances wouldn't have allowed it. I did order 5 extra and they went a week after the order was sent in, and I STILL get the occasional PM or e-mail asking about extras.

...............Buckshot

[45 2.1]

This is Catshooters bullet with a square groove. I supposedly have samples of all (38, 44, 45 cal) the original Keith square groove bullets coming sometime. These are from a well known name in the industry. Maybe you want to wait until I get these?

[gregg]

That would be great. A TRUE Keith. Priceless.

[ddixie884]

Great looking boolit, 45 2.1 do you have the dimensions??? I hope.

[Beau Cassidy]

If it is a true keith at .360 or .361 then you can bump me up to 2. Maybe 3. I have to get enough to last me another 30 or 40 years of casting.

Beau

[45 2.1]

Great looking boolit, 45 2.1 do you have the dimensions??? I hope.

I draw all my drawings to actual scale. Yes I have all the dimensions needed for the mold maker to do it. I also have a couple of people sending me older versions than what Catshooter has, which is the last drawing. Wait for the others to show up, which might take a while, and maybe we will get close to what Keith actually designed.
Catshooters bullet was drawn to a 0.361" diameter.

[Willbird]

That bullet is too neat looking for me to not want 1, or 2..........


What I saw done on extras with one group buy is for them to run $10.00 more, or $66.00 shipped, and on the 434-250 group buy I stated that, and the first extra $10 is going to the board as a donation.

it takes a lot of green to buy extra molds as Buckshot said, now if I was a lottery winner I would bump each run up to 100 and just fill a room with them......heat storage mass for some weird passive solar getup or something.


Bill

[mroliver77]

I am very happy with the mold @.361".

45 2.1
I would like to see if there is any intrest in the kieth 454424. If you get a sample to draw one up I would sure like to know about it. I would Like a six cav in all of Kieths SWC. Jay

[Catshooter]

I'm gettin' excited! Thanks to 45's efforts with gathering the better samples than I have and his excellent drawings, I think this is gonna happen.

I want to wait until he gets the rest of the samples in, then we can finalize a design. Then I'll start an order thread.

mroliver77, if you want to check interest on a true 454424 you might want to start up a thread and ask. I imagine it would go well.


Cat

[ddixie884]

45 2.1, what I really wanted to know is the nose length.

[gregg]

Keith's 38's 44's 45, In 6 cav in a over size .361 .434 .455
would be price less. I'm I the only guy stuck with over sized
cylinders and bores?

[Willbird]

Greg, I and many other folks would sign on for one of each of those, my security six measures .358-.359, my redhawk runs .433.....and I have an old model 45 colt that takes .454 boolits.

Bill

[45 2.1]

45 2.1, what I really wanted to know is the nose length.

Nose to crimp groove is 0.384". I have already stated at the beginning of this thread that it will not fit some 357 cylinders. Keith originally designed this bullet for the special case.

[gregg]

Greg, I and many other folks would sign on for one of each of those, my security six measures .358-.359, my redhawk runs .433.....and I have an old model 45 colt that takes .454 boolits.

Bill

Hawes 357 with .360 chambers a Dan Wesson with .360+ chambers
Rossi 44 WCF .431 barrel
Ruger SBH .433 chambers and Barrel
And we will not even get into the rifle stuff.

[Bear4570]

If you end up going with a .44 keith also, put me down for one of each otherwise I'll take two of the .357's.

[45 2.1]

I just recieved some samples from a forum member. All are round lube groove, but 3 of the 5 different mold samples look to be older than the sample from Catshooter and more like what i've seen in Keiths books. I'm still waiting (and probably will for some time yet) for the square groove samples of all Keiths bullets. Have patience, were getting a little closer.

[GLL]

45 2.1:

I have the following with flat grooves if they would be of any help. I can mail them right away if you are interested

358429 #405

429421 #914

http://www.fototime.com/494CFD9D922421B/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/672AC772D273279/standard.jpg

I would love to have both in 6-cavity !

Jerry

[45 2.1]

Jerry-

Are those from old molds? Is the front band the same diameter as the driving bands? If so yes.

[GLL]

45 2.1:

Both Lyman moulds have the front and middle bands of equal width but base bands are disctinctly wider. I did not get boxes with either when I recently purchased them both. The 358429 has a thicker "modern" sprue plate so is probably of recent vintage. I gave the cherry #'s but have no idea what they mean in terms of age.

I will search around and see if I can find any with equal band widths. I may have a 454424 with three equal bands.

Jerry

[Catshooter]

Jerry,

One thing to look for is are the moulds vented? The mould I sent 45 a sample from isn't, and it still has a round lube groove. (The older ones weren't vented.)

We're getitng there, folks.


Cat

[LAH]

GLL's 44 bullet "looks" like the Lyman from 2003. I have two of the 4 cavity moulds and they work great. Brian Pearce has wrote this bullet up in Handloader a couple times and even ordered some for himself. I shoot it myself.

The 357 bullet does look quite like our current 358429 mould. Remember the square grooves are a pain. Flat bottoms are fine but you need a 60 degree bevel for them to release with any trouble. Just My 2.

[mroliver77]

. Remember the square grooves are a pain. Flat bottoms are fine but you need a 60 degree bevel for them to release with any trouble. Just My 2.
I tend to agree with Creeker on this. I have two group buy molds and neither releases very well. A couple smacks and they release but not near as well as the round groove molds I have. A couple Lee molds I have have shallow multiple grooves and release well. I am not condeming any designs just stating my experience. As far as Elmers designs I want them as close to his as possible. Any other custom molds I am more interested in easy release than more "traditional" flat bottom grooves. JMHO Jay

[gbair]

I would also like to have both the 358429 & the 429421 in 6 cavity. When you decide on the design will you make sure to post this under another thread so I don't miss the opportunity to order with you.

Thanks,
Greg

[KB291]

Count me in for one each 38...44...45.
KB291

[Catshooter]

Don't worry kids, I'll post individual threads for each seperate moulds. I would really like to get enough interest and orders to hit the 100 mark, thus they'd be cheaper. We'll see.


Cat

[Beau Cassidy]

I would be in for at least 3 or more in the .38 and .44. Maybe even a .45.

Beau

[mroliver77]

I was thinking when things slow down some here I would like to do the 454424 unless Catshooter wants to do them all. I would like all of the Kieth SWC in six cavity. Jay

[Catshooter]

77,

Be my guest. I thought I might space each mould out a bit. Some of the members are loaded, but probably most are not. I was also thinking of a true 454424, and then maybe a heavy .45, like 310 with the same concept.

Should be fun!


Cat

[KB291]

Catshooter,
To what address do I send remittance for one...mabe two molds?
KB291

[Catshooter]

my friend. I'll set up a purchase thread when we get the design finalized.

I know it's dang hard to wait, but I think it'll be worth it.


Cat

[mroliver77]

77,

Be my guest. I thought I might space each mould out a bit. Some of the members are loaded, but probably most are not. I was also thinking of a true 454424, and then maybe a heavy .45, like 310 with the same concept.

Should be fun!


Cat
Cat after reading my post it sounds like I want to horn in on the honchoing.Not my intent. I hadnt read all the former posts thoroughly and missed that you would like to do each of the Kieth designs. I had posted that before and met with lukewarm response. If I can be of any help or if you are overwhelmed and cant do them all just call on me. I just want to see all the Kieth designs in 6 cavity. I would think Lee would want to make these a standard offering. Jay

[Catshooter]

you trying to horn your way in. Thanks for the offer of help. You never know.

I was thinking about your's and others' posts on the way home last night from work.

Here's what I see. I'd like to do the 358429, then his .44, the 454423, and the 45 Colt, and maybe a 310 grain Keith in .45. All oversized.

I the early '80's I had Walt Melander of NEI make me up a two cavity in brass. I asked him to make as true a Keith as he could, but heavier so that I could use it in the Ruger Blackhawk. Keith expressed a number of times that he would have liked to make the 454429 bigger but the Colts and Smiths of the day wouldn't push 'em fast enough.

Of course by that time lots of people had been pushing the 454429 fast out of the Ruger, and I had too. So I knew it would work.

He sent me a beautiful mould that threw lovley 310 grain .45s in wheelweights. They would run about 320, 325 in pure lead. I asked for .050 from the front of the Ruger cylinder and he delivered. If recall, I paid for the mould plus $100 for him to make the cherry. I think at the time I could have paid him a bit more and he'd have sent me the cherry. Oh boy I wish I had. *Sigh.*

Those big fat puppies in front of 20 grains of #2400 would hit pretty hard from both ends. They did about 1200 fps, I think.

The only things I wish were different about our group buys are I'd rather have brass moulds and I wish Mountain Moulds would do six-holers. I'd like to support him and his company but he won't do 'em.

Anyway, those are the six-bangers I'd like to get made up.

Sorry for the long post.


Cat

[mick27]

Hi guys,

I'm brand new to this, is it still possible to get in on this (.359 173gr Keith boolit mold, 6 cav.) ?

Mick27

[Catshooter]

No worries Mick we are very much in the planning stages. Read the whole thread, you'll see.


Cat

[AKtinman]

I've been away from the internet during a move from Alaska to Texas, so have not kept up with this site.

Has a group buy for the 173 gr Keith been set up? I'd sure like to jump in if possible.

Thanks.

Ron

[Catshooter]

Aktinman,

Read the post above yours.


Cat

[Hardcast]

<snip> Keith expressed a number of times that he would have liked to make the 454429 bigger but the Colts and Smiths of the day wouldn't push 'em fast enough.

Of course by that time lots of people had been pushing the 454429 fast out of the Ruger, and I had too. So I knew it would work.
<snip>Cat

Catshooter,

454429 ? What boolit is that?

[Catshooter]

Hardcast,

The 454429 is a very rarely seen explosive magical bullet that never misses and knocks 'em all down with one hit............

Ya busted me. Would a 454424 make more sense?


Cat

[Hardcast]

Hardcast,

The 454429 is a very rarely seen explosive magical bullet that never misses and knocks 'em all down with one hit............

Ya busted me. Would a 454424 make more sense?


Cat


ha ha ha ha ha ha ha,,,,,,,, yea, I'm familiar with the classic Keith 424 boolit. Now your previous post makes sense.

I already have about everything I need in .45 caliber molds, but if you go for a Lee 6 holer in a good Keith .44 spl/mag. mold, I'm up for one of those.

[Catshooter]

Yep,

.38/.357,.44 & probably 2 in .45. They'll be as true to old Elmers wants as we can get, and oversize to boot. Look forward to havin' ya involved.


Cat

[Bodydoc447]

Has the pot been stirred on this lately? This one really interests me. Would like to add a Keith 41 caliber to the list of stuff to do, too.

Doc

[ddixie884]

What is the status of this project?

[Catshooter]

We're awaitin' on someone that 45 2.1 knows who is gonna send him some sample 'Keith' boolits.

I whinned to 45 2.1 a week or two ago, but he just slapped me around and told me to be a man and quit sniveling. [smilie=l:

So, soon, my brethren, soon. (I hope!)


Cat

[45 2.1]

We're awaitin' on someone that 45 2.1 knows who is gonna send him some sample 'Keith' boolits.

I whinned to 45 2.1 a week or two ago, but he just slapped me around and told me to be a man and quit sniveling. [smilie=l:

So, soon, my brethren, soon. (I hope!)


Cat

Boy, it wasn't that bad. If you want the real thing, sometimes it just takes time (alot in most cases).

[porkchop bob]

This is an interesting article dealing with 38 SPL and 357 cast bullets. Includes data on the 'Keith' design. As many of us want a Keith design in 38, 41, 44, and/or 45, it is good reference. http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=24
Bob

[ddixie884]

Any news?

[LAH]

This is an interesting article dealing with 38 SPL and 357 cast bullets. Includes data on the 'Keith' design. As many of us want a Keith design in 38, 41, 44, and/or 45, it is good reference. http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=24
Bob


This guy Glen is one of the better cast bullet men.

[Idahoser]

Somebody got time to give me some background on why we like Keith so much? If they're special as you guys seem to think, how come these molds are a special order?

I got here looking for Rossi .357 16" bullet recommendations, and also have a Ranger Compact .357. Don't yet have any single-actions, but do have a 2" S&W 60 and want a 4" 620 or 19/66.

Did anything ever come of the discussion on the RNFP (I believe the drawing in post #4 by 45 2.1 is a drawing of the boolit several folks were interested in)?

Being a total noob I have a hard time following these threads talking about so many different things. If I read it right, the thread's title is NOT what you're working on buying?

The Lyman 358156 looks good from reading from the links I found here. I assume that is already available? My needs might be met already, is why I'm not finding it here... you guys are looking for stuff that isn't already available. Is there a better place to start?

[Catshooter]

To me, the essence of why the Keith is that it in it's true form is the most all around boolit there is.

The reason they're hard to find in exact form is not everyone agrees with me. Go figure. Also, most human beings have a difficult time duplicating something exactly and when you combine that with NIH (Not Invented Here), well there you go.

Ray Thomsons design is a fine one and very well liked (356156).

Someday, maybe, we'll get this buy going. Hopefully prior to either my patience or Lee's willingness to do custom molds expires.


Cat

[Bear4570]

Ditto....be it a .357, .41, .44, or .45 there's just somethin about a Keith..

I like the Ray Thompson bullet a bunch too!

[mroliver77]

After the holidays I will get together with Catshooter and we WILL get this one done. If anybody has samples of the Keith bullets please let us know. Jay

[Cayoot]

I hope so, I surely do! I'd hate to see this one go "gone beaver"!

[Tristan]

If you get an exact match of the 358429 in 6 cavity, please count me IN, IN IN! I might buy 2 or 3, even...

In fact, Catshooter mentioned getting 6 cavity moulds in all the classic Keith designs, and I would commit to getting at least 1 of each 429421, 454424, and the currently discussed mould, the 358429.

[Pepe Ray]

After the holidays I will get together with Catshooter and we WILL get this one done. If anybody has samples of the Keith bullets please let us know. Jay

Catshooter & mroliver77,
I'll be happy to send samples of 358429 from 2 defferent molds.
Tolerance check? Get me a snail mail address and I'll wrap 'em up.
How many of each??
Pepe Ray

Whoops, I just gathered my stock and found that they were ALL lubed and sized. You can still have some but won't this corrupt the value of the measurements you find? TTYL Pepe Ray

[mroliver77]

Ray,
Half dozen of each, Jay

[Catshooter]

Ray,

It might also be helpful if you let us know what the mould manifactureers are and what the mould #s are.

Most "Keiths" aren't. Thanks.


Cat

[Cayoot]

I'm just trying to remind everyone about this! Let's not allow this to become a "forgotten project". I've already put it in my budget and I'm really pumped!~ :-D

[Bear4570]

Here, Here, ready and waiting....

[Dutch4122]

The .357, .44, and .45 will definately have my attention once a general consensis is reached and we're ready to design & order.

[Cayoot]

The .357, .44, and .45 will definately have my attention once a general consensis is reached and we're ready to design & order.

Don't forget that sweet little .41 Maggie! She is such a sweet shy gal, but oh so very good at what she does!!! :bigsmyl2:

[Bodydoc447]

Agreed! Somewhere along the line we ought to do a 410459 or even a 41032. I think the 410459 is more Keith-like in appearance.

Doc

[C1PNR]

Or, since we're drawing a NEW one, why not the 410459 with a nose more like the larger meplat of the 454424? Weighing in at maybe 235 to 240 gr. Just another idea, but I'll bet Elmer would've liked it.;-)

The 41032 is kind of pointy looking for a SWC, not to mention GC design.

Just another stick in the pot.8)

[Bodydoc447]

Sounds good to me. I would like any plain based SWC for the 41. My copy of the 41032 is plain based. I didn't know it was made in GC. That is really neat. I may have to start looking for one.

Doc

[Cayoot]

[QUOTE=C1PNR]why not the 410459 with a nose more like the larger meplat of the 454424? Weighing in at maybe 235 to 240 gr.


Now THATS MY KIND OF BOOLIT!!!! [smilie=w:

[Tom Myers]

Guys, For what it's worth,
I Have a bunch of 358429 bullets that I purchase years back. I fed the dimensions into the software and these are the results of the calculations and sketches. I had to shrink the sketch to fit the parameters of the attachment software, but I think that it is still readable.

[Cayoot]

WOW! That sure is purty!!! :D

[Tom Myers]

I noticed that some are able to post a thumbnail attachment that will open a full screen sized image. Can anyone tell me how that is done? I haven't yet figgured out the process.

Tom Myers.

[Bear4570]

Hey Tom, nice bullet, I like it also....that I could live with fer sure and fer certain!

[GLL]

Tom:

Very nice !

Would you be willing to e-mail me a high resolution copy of your drawing ? :)

Jerry

gllewis@pasadena.edu

[Tristan]

Don't forget that sweet little .41 Maggie! She is such a sweet shy gal, but oh so very good at what she does!!! :bigsmyl2:

Yeah! I'd be interested in a complete suite of Keith's...

[Bman]

So where is this GB right now? I would very much like to get in on it but won't have funds until Feburary. Christmas and school being the major factors.

I have a 2 cav 454424 Lyman mould with rounded lube grooves but would prefer a 6 banger closer to Elmer's original. Actually the rounded Lyman does fine with the lube I use and runs about 265 nekkid and a 6 banger would be berries.

CS sending a PM.

Last thought, how heavy can you go practically with a Keith inspired design and get ~1100 fps from a Ruger BH with say a 7.5" barrel? You know with sane pressures.

[seagiant]

Hey Catshooter,
We ever going to light this candle???



Go tell the Spartans,stanger passing by.
That here obediant to their laws,we lie!

[Catshooter]

Patience, my friend. At least that's what 45 2.1 tells me.


Cat

[ddixie884]

Tom, thats a damn fine looking drawing, thanks for sharing.

[ddixie884]

Looks like this deal is dead.

[Buckshot]

Looks like this deal is dead.

................Just needs someone to step up and honcho it.

................Buckshot

[David R]

I have a thought, lets see a true list of who is "IN" using the drawing Tom posted.

David

[45 2.1]

I thought the point of this was to duplicate Keiths original design, which samples for are very hard to get. If you want a generic design, which is what Tom has, go for it. Lyman is notorious for changing designs every time they ground a new cutter. Keiths design was stated as has having equal length driving bands which includes the nose also. This is a series of Keith original design bullets as close as we can get and that ain't it. Very nice drawing and effort there Tom, thanks. Now if the guys would get those samples of all Keiths original bullets to me, not just this one, we could go to town.

[Catshooter]

45 2.1 is correct. If you read my original post I want to pour as close to what Keith designed as is possible to get. Ya just can't ask him anymore!

We need samples. 45 has been promised some but has gotten only the one. If the others would send theirs it would really help. We really need more than just the one.

I know it has been forever, but we're doing the best we can. I'm ready to honcho as soon as we can go.


Cat

[Idahoser]

These threads wander so much, would you remind me what we want to order?

I think it was originally a Kieth .357 6-cavity, but grew into a Kieth 6-cavity for a series of calibers.

What is this thread about?

[gregg]

Lets do her right. I'm willing to wait till it is right.
Catshooter take your time and get your samples.
Catshooter I have I think a newer single cav. Lyman
358429 . If you need samples I will sent a few.. Say
the word. I will get more information off the mold
when I get home from work.

[Catshooter]

gregg,

The grease groove is the first place to look. If it's square, yea, samples would be cool.

If the mould was made after say, 1945 or 50 it probably won't help us much, Lyman was bad about sticking to the design.

Thanks!


Idahoser,

I think this thread is about getting some original Keith's from Lee. Isn't it obvious?



Cat

[gregg]

Cat I'm darn sure its newer than that. I did not know the cut off of years.
Cat it is going to be interesting when you get this all sorted out.
I know I have two 429421 molds. Night and day between them.
Neather one is a real Keith. Guys this is going to be worth the wait.
There were SWC before Keith.. Keith just put the polish to them.
As far as i know equal length driving bands. On the base to take
the pressure of the powder going off and the nose band to line the bullet
up with the chamber mouths and barrel and catch the rifling.
That just class 101. This will be a great deal.
gregg

[Cayoot]

I'm willing to wait as long as it takes. If it is an original Keith, I want it...I'm still hoping for a full collection of all the major (.357 and up) calibers.

[Dutch4122]

I'm willing to wait as long as it takes. If it is an original Keith, I want it...I'm still hoping for a full collection of all the major (.357 and up) calibers.

Ditto...................

[kodiak1]

Count me in

[Idahoser]

.359 173gr Keith boolit mold
I take it 6-cavity?

I'm in.

A series?
I'm in for a couple, maybe all.

[mick27]

I'm still in....
mick27

[gbair]

I'm also still in. Just let me know when to order!!

Greg

[Idahoser]

Y'all seemed to think I was kidding but I really do think it needs to be restated at the end exactly WHAT we are buying. You guys may understand each other somehow but I got lost with all the discussion of what we WANTED, I wasn't sure what we HAD.

[Murphy]

Not sure where this buy is going.

But if the bullet is a true Keith 358429, count me in on one.

Respectfully,

Murphy

[Catshooter]

Idahoser,

When we're ready for people to actually start buying, probably what they'll be getting (first) is as close to what Elmer really designed for the .38 special, the 358429 as we can figure out. Later also used in the .357. Weight about 173, a semi-wadcutter shootin' machine.

If we are indeed met with sucess & acceptance, then I imagine we will progress up through the calibers 'till we're done.

Don't worry, when we do start the ball rolling I'll start up a new thread for all to see.

Murphy,

Right now this buy is going nowhere, and slowly, too. We are waiting for someone, anyone to help us out with some old Keith sample boolits.



Cat

[Murphy]

Thanks Cat,

I've been wanting to add the 358429 to my .38 calliber moulds. And was considering buying a Lyman 4 cavity. Mainly for full house magnum loads of course. Guess we may just have to wait and see.

Thanks.

Murphy

[James Wisner]

Catshooter.

Food for thought.

Since it has been hard to find the plain base bullets. Why not ALSO look for the hollow base versions for dims. These would be more in the age of the old designs.
Just looking at the chart from the mid 50's and the 1973 book you can see #'s 358431 and 429422

Also If I can find my 1989 H&G price list, I know several of those molds have the remarks that they were approved by Elmer.

I know Lyman redid cherries as they wore and replaced them with different shapes as the decades went by. I bought in 1978 a NEW 429421HP mold that has a 90 degree square flat bottom lube groove. Go figure that one out.????

Just some more options to look at.

Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith

[Catshooter]

Jim,

At this point we'll take anything, it don't have to be Lyman or the solid. HP or HB would be great.

I have a Lyman 358429 made in 6/03 that has a square bottom lube groove - go figure.


Cat

[Murphy]

Cat,

I've posted over on sixgunnercommunity.com about needing samples of 'original' Keith #358429 boolits. I have received one reply from a man stating he has some very old #358429 moulds.

Hopefully I can get a few samples from him. He told me he would send me the drawings early this coming week.

If we're lucky, we maybe another step closer to getting this thing off the ground.

I'm really beginning to wonder if there are any true Keith bullet moulds left out there. 'Sigh'.

Just a thought, but has anyone considered actually contacting Lyman and seeing if they have the original spec's? (I know...it'd be a miracle).

Thanks,

Murphy

[45 2.1]

I have Lymans current drawings for the square groove 358429 and 429421 already.

[Murphy]

Apparently I have gotten lost somewhere along the way.

Okay, I understand about the current drawings vs the original ones and the cherries being changed out over the years.

Is the current version that far off from what is to be believed as the original Keith bullet?

Thanks,

Murphy

[45 2.1]

We have written descriptions from Keith of equal length driving bands at full diameter with a square lube groove, but have no old boolits matching that description, yet. All the verifiable old samples I have are round lube grooves. Paco Kelly and Glenn Fryxell have molds and published photos of boolits matching the Keith description, and yes, both have been contacted with no results so far.

[David R]

:) when the boolit is found, I am in!

David

[Catshooter]

I also recently e-mailed John Ross, I am hoping he might have something we could use. Alas, no word as yet.


Cat

[garandsrus]

I would like one...

John

[Poohgyrr]

I'm late finding this forum, but I'm here and want one when it's ready.

[Buckshot]

...............HA! I just had to post. This has just GOT to be the longest group buy thread with 7 pages and 5500 views that hasn't come to fruition yet [smilie=6:.

You go guys[smilie=b:

Heck, when/if it does go I suppose I may have to have one myself!

..................Buckshot

[Catshooter]

Buckshot, I looked for a smiley face with a great big tonge stickin out but couldn't find one. But I do know what you're saying.

Believe it or not, 45 2.1 is, right now drawing 'em up. We should have a bunch of calibers ready in a week or so. .357, .40, .41, .44. and several in .45. I hope. Oh boy do I hope.

Or I might just have un-register from this and every other gun forum on the net and then come back in say 15 or 20 years.

*Sigh.*


Cat

[Catshooter]

Buckshot, I looked for a smiley face with a great big tonge stickin out but couldn't find one. But I do know what you're saying.

Believe it or not, 45 2.1 is, right now drawing 'em up. We should have a bunch of calibers ready in a week or so. .357, .40, .41, .44. and several in .45. I hope. Oh boy do I hope.

Or I might just have un-register from this and every other gun forum on the net and then come back in say 15 or 20 years.

*Sigh.*


Cat

[Bodydoc447]

Guess I'll be stocking up on Ramen again. Gotta have one each of all.

Doc

[GLL]

ddixie dropped buy and loaned me his old 358439 (HP) mould to experiment with. His mould is an older unvented IDEAL version with the sqaure lube grooves. I must say his dropped bullets very smoothly compared to mine !

Here is a photo with his hollow point 3584439 bullets compared with my own "modern" Lyman 358429 with square grooves. There is a slight design difference.

I will send more samples off to Catshooter to add to the last batch I mailed. I hope this buy works out ! :)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/FEE5D7B5C7C372A/standard.jpg

[LAH]

Those are real nice pictures..........great shots..........Creeker

[45 2.1]

Jerry-
Nice pictures and those are the closest ones i've seen in a while that actually look like original Keith designs. I have a round groove 358439 that shoots great, unlike the new version358429 in the center photo. Mine is close to the 358439 pictured with the bands at different lengths. Please cast some up and shoot for accuracy. Whatever shoots the best should be the group buy boolit. You have a PM.

[David R]

Whenever you all figure what out what its going to be, I'm in !!

David

[Cayoot]

Count me in too!

[nelson133]

I'd be interested in this one.

[mroliver77]

wow, look at them purty driving bands! I would be happy with Jerrys friends bullet as a pattern and have it cast a minimum of .360" diameter. Spec it at .363 and then it would drop at .360+ in WW.
I have been out of commision for a while and was hoping I didn't miss out on this one. I was unable to come up with any usefull samples myself. All I found were round lube groove. J

[David R]

If you spec it at .361 it will drop .360. That is what we did for the 31141 and it came out perfect.

David

[GLL]

Here are a couple of the IDEAL 358439 bullets from a "modern" mould that has the rounded lube grooves along with the early Ideal 358439 square groove version for comparison.

This photo did not turn out well so I will try again tonight.

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/20C8CBD1480048F/standard.jpg

[madcaster]

When you guys are ready for ordering the plain based version I want one,
Jeff.

[PatMarlin]

I've got an Ideal 358439 hollow point single cavity with the round lube groove. It looks like the top band and the base are close to the same width, and the center band is wide. Looks old and has the old handles.

How can you tell when they were made?

[DEVERS454]

Count me in... I'm a sucker for a SWC/Keith in 38/357.

Plain base with no HP is fine.

[Dutch4122]

Things were lookin' up for a while; and then nothing new reported for almost a month. Did we hit another snag or something? Just curious how this 358429 buy is progressing?

As I stated before, definately interested in the .41, .44, and .45 versions as well.

[Catshooter]

Never fear, things are progressing behind the scenes.

45 2.1 is right, it will be worth the wait.

[Cayoot]

Man o Man!!!! I feel like a kid waiting on Christmas!!:mrgreen:

[kodiak1]

X2 I know how you feel.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Guys,

This will be my FIRST bullet mold so I want it to be right and will bother heck out of you to learn what I need to know to get started correctly. I love that bullet of Elmer's and can't wait to get home and get started on my casting career!

Wayne

[frank505]

I would like a mold also, I do have a Lyman four cavity 358429 square grease groove and a 358439 hollow point round grease groove (Ideal marked). The four cavity is getting a little old and tired after many thousands of bullets.
The dimensions posted previously seem to be about right, so go ahead.
Where do I send money?

[David R]

Where do I send money?

Ditto

[Catshooter]

Just keep your eye peeled for the group buy thread.