M1911 Accidental Discharge

[Hamish]

Folks,

There is a thread running concerning an accidental discharge pertaining to a police officer and a felmale while dancing:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=158893

It was alluded to in that thread that it is possible for a m1911 to experience an AD (accidental discharge) while in Condition One; round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on. My entire life I have been conditioned to believe that it is physically impossible for this to occur while cocked and locked. A round go off without moving the safety to off, depressing both the grip safety and the trigger? Yeah, right.

Does anyone have evidence that this is possible?

At this point, "I heard", "My neighbor said", etc. should be considered fair game to be considered clues to be used to search for actual stories.

What say you?

------------
Coop's Conditions:

Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine, hammer down.
Condition Two: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer down.
Condition One: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition Zero: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer cocked, safety off.

[paul h]

Any man made device can fail, no matter how many safeguards are designed or employed. While it is highly unlikely that a 1911 can ad in condition 1, to believe that it is physically impossible is not prudent.

The only truly safe gun is one that is unloaded.

[GT27]

Where is it stated it's a 1911,I didn't see it listed? GT27

[Hamish]

It is not stated, that was the position of one of the posters, and if one guy thinks it possible, then I would like to know how.

[hicard]

I have caught my 1911 safety off several times and thank God for that grip safety. I am constantly checking the thumb safety. I also have an M&P Smith that I will not carry canceled due to the fact that I do not think trigger safeties are safe be it s&w or glock. I fear an AD every time I holster the M&P.

[BD]

I'm the person who took issue with Gabby's statement which implied that 1911s are somehow more prone to an AD while holstered, cocked and locked. I carry a 1911 frequently, always in condition one, and I do so in part because I believe that it is safer than carrying a striker fired pistol. So, I am open to reports of 1911 ADs in the interest of my own safety.

1911s are prone to AD if dropped on the muzzle against a hard surface when the firing pin spring is weak. Several different systems of firing pin block have been invented over the years to address this issue and both the series "80" Colts and the "II" series Kimbers employ them. I don't think that is the issue in contention here. My concern is more with the ADs that occur as a result of contact between the holstered weapon and another person or object, or ADs occuring during the draw, or re-holstering of the pistol.

So, any 1911 AD stories out there?
BD

[Hamish]

Condition two AD: http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/ad_tb.htm

Ahem, same reason you don't carry hammer down on a loaded round in a single action.

Muzzle drop test: (Glad I found this, I was actually considering testing with a primed empty case)

http://yarchive.net/gun/pistol/1911_inertial_discharge.html

[smokeywolf]

Carried my 1911 cocked & locked for 7 years.
Three safeties: thumb, grip, and holster (retention) strap over firing pin-under hammer. All of those safeties have to fail or be overcome, then the trigger still has to be pulled.
I don't know what the odds are of an AD happening under the above circumstances, but I would be much more concerned about lightening striking me.

[David2011]

Carried my 1911 cocked & locked for 7 years.
Three safeties: thumb, grip, and holster (retention) strap over firing pin-under hammer. All of those safeties have to fail or be overcome, then the trigger still has to be pulled.
I don't know what the odds are of an AD happening under the above circumstances, but I would be much more concerned about lightening striking me.

Smokey,

+1 That's my preferred method of carry as well, with an old Safariland holster made just for that configuration with an inside thumb break strap. It's a great holster for a backup gun while hunting. The only downside is keeping it concealed when that is required. It fits very close to the body but being an outside the waistband holster the muzzle extends down far enough that a long jacket is required to cover it if I reach for something on a high shelf in a store.

I have a Glock but I HATE holstering it. Most of the time it gets holstered before putting it on and remains in the holster until time to put it away. They're too easy to AD when holstering. The KelTec P-40 (.40 S&W version of the P-11) is vicious to shoot but with an 8-1/2 pound trigger pull it's not going off accidentally.

David

[TheDoctor]

Saw ONE case where this COULD have happened, and if I did not see it, there is no way I would believe it. My dad got one of the Colt Officers models when they first came out back in the 80's. I was looking it over, and one thing I always check are the safety functions. Grip safety depressed, frame safety on, squeezed the trigger, hammer fell. Not sure mechanically HOW it would do it, but the safety would rotate down when the trigger was pulled. Gun was immediately boxed up and taken back to the shop. Salesman thought we were full of it, then he tried it. He had to pick his jaw up off of the floor. Dad refused to accept a repair, and Colt agreed to a new gun. They wanted that one back to see what was with it.

[Hamish]

Hey, speak of the devil, look what just showed up on youtube a few day's ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE

[R.Ph. 380]

I have caught my 1911 safety off several times and thank God for that grip safety. I am constantly checking the thumb safety. I also have an M&P Smith that I will not carry canceled due to the fact that I do not think trigger safeties are safe be it s&w or glock. I fear an AD every time I holster the M&P.

Hicard, is that 1911 an ambidexterous safety? They are very much more prone to being accidentally flipped to off than the single sided safety.:lovebooli With a good holster with shield molded to the gun the single thumb safety should never move until you drop it intentionally.

Bill

[paul h]

Carried my 1911 cocked & locked for 7 years.
Three safeties: thumb, grip, and holster (retention) strap over firing pin-under hammer. All of those safeties have to fail or be overcome, then the trigger still has to be pulled.
I don't know what the odds are of an AD happening under the above circumstances, but I would be much more concerned about lightening striking me.

I've studied enough industrial accidents to realize that anything manmade can and will fail, and just because you think you have 3 levels of safety, doesn't mean that holds true for all situations. For all safeties to function on the gun the have to have been properly manufactured, and not work out of spec over time. How many people regularly test the various safeties on their 1911?

There is a reason the #1 firearm safety rule is keep your gun pointed in a safe direction. That rule is in place due to the failure of safeties in the past, and sadly failures that have yet to occur.

Unless I'm intentionally placing myself in harms way, which I avoid at all cost, I'd rather carry an empty chamber and completely eliminate the ad risk.

[Mohillbilly]

It could be concidered an AD when you get a "double" or more as well .

[BD]

My connection is way too slow for U-tube. Could someone give us the "cliff's notes" on this incident? Thanks,
BD

[Hamish]

BD, guy is practicing point blank draw and fire. Draws and pulls trigger, bullet enters side of leg height of butt cheek, exits side of leg a few inches above knee.

Causation was switching back and forth from thumb lock glock holster to serpa. He went to draw and thumbed the safety and could not get the serpa to let go and hit the release with trigger finger and as it released his finger swept into guard and pulled the trigger.

[KYCaster]

My connection is way too slow for U-tube. Could someone give us the "cliff's notes" on this incident? Thanks,
BD



Mall Ninja drawing from Blackhawk holster ( http://www.reactgear.com/Blackhawk-SERPA-Holsters-s/177.htm?gclid=COyUzvzMlbECFQbonAodug9j3g ) that requires you to release the retention devise by applying pressure with your TRIGGER FINGER.

Sweeps off thumb safety when he acquires his grip on the gun, applies pressure to retention devise with his TRIGGER FINGER, continues to apply pressure with his TRIGGER FINGER as the TRIGGER clears the holster, depresses TRIGGER with TRIGGER FINGER resulting in NEGLIGENT discharge with gun still in holster.

Quote from the video.........."At this point my training kicked in and I called my parents......."

IMO a poor design for a holster and an idiot with a gun trying to pass himself off as an expert.

Jerry

[smokeywolf]

paul h,

I agree with every point you made. Guns and people are not 100% predictable. I do test the safety features on my firearms routinely. Anything made by man will have flaws which could reveal themselves at any time. Although I did carry in a shoulder holster on occasion, I didn't use a horizontal holster. Didn't like the idea of my muzzle aiming at God knows what or who behind me.

I think perhaps the most important safety feature is the mindset of the operator. Complacency, apathy, and operating on auto-pilot may be the greatest contributing factor in ADs.

[dmize]

My connection is way too slow for U-tube. Could someone give us the "cliff's notes" on this incident? Thanks,
BD

Picture the biggest Bubba ******* you can imagine being a Youtube expert shooting himself in the buttocks and then calling his parents for help "because his training kicked in" really puts the rest of us in a good light.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have to weigh in on this subject mainly due to my involvement with Front Sight. With 60,000 people a year going thru this school all the possible issues pretty much show themselves sooner or later.

The most prevalent 1911 ND is when the gun is reholstered with the safety off and the finger in the triggerguard. Both of which are usually committed by idiots, and NOT taught at Front Sight.

After you shoot at the target, and you lower the gun to the ready position to do your after action drills, your finger should be strait and OUT of the Trigger Guard. AS soon as you decide to reholster the first thing to do while retreating from the ready position is to re-engage the safety.

These are rote skills that only get imprinted by much drilling, the kind of drilling you get when you fire 800-1000 rounds in 4 days. And also since these are perishbile skills this drilling much be repeated at least once and preferrably 2-3 times a year.

I was next to a guy who shot himself with a nice new Kimber 1911 at Front Sight. He was one of those high pressure guys who was pushing himself to Distinguished Graduate the course, and was not living up to his expectations. WE had gotten done with the shooting portion and he had already blown his chances of DG ing the course, and we were down to doing the Type 3 malfunction clearing drill. (failure to eject) This drill must be completed in 6.5 seconds and is easily doable.

He was late on the last completion, and got all pissed off. Mind you he finished the clearing and was holding a 1911 with a live round in the chamber, the safety off and with his finger on the trigger ready to fire.

He then proceeded to promptly shove the gun back into the holster with the safety off and his finger still on the trigger. Also not taught at Front Sight! Slow deliberate reholstering is taught at Front Sight.

Bang!

Shot in the leg, goes in the thigh and out above the knee.

A $2500 helicopter trip to the Las Vegas Hospital followed (on his dime).

Come to find out from his friends after the accident that it was the "SECOND" time he had shot himself. The first time he had almost shot his dick off by shoving the loaded .45 with the saftey off and finger on the trigger for some unknown reason, into his PANTS!

This was as a result of being told by security at the Primm Casino at State line NV that his conceiled carry permit didn't cover access to their Casino. He was putting the gun into his pickup when someone walked by, he went spastic and shoved the gun in the aforementioned condition into his pants! Bang!

This guy is an Idiot! He is also no longer welcome at Front Sight, and to my mind needs to look seriously at Fly Fishing as a hobby, as he obviously doesn't have the temperment for handling guns.

He was also standing right next to the left of me on the firing line Which I took direct exception too. Luckily for me he was left handed so "he" was between me and the gun. Had he not shot himself many people would have shamed him into retreat, let alone the Range master who would have had a serious talk with him while excorting him and his grip to his car.

I have found that the VAST majority, and I'm talking 99.9999% of negligent discharges, are the fault of the operator, period . Accessories may contribute but it's still your fault.

Also there are no Serpa or other retention holsters allowed at Front Sight for the above reasons stated by Hamish.

The rote nature of operating a pistol is the exact reason I don't shoot a 1911 and shoot Glocks instead. There is no safety to re-engage on a Glock and once you remove your finger from the trigger the gun is safe. There is nothing else to "think about " while reholstering into your Blade-Tech Kydex holster that has no protrusions or other things that can set the gun off. Also in my case I am looking at the holster while putting the gun in and I don't push the gun, it falls in and then I pull it into the locked position with my index finger which is outside the holster.

IF I was going to shoot 1911's I would NOT shoot Glocks too. They are completely different operating systems. Both are great guns, the Glock is just a simpler gun to operate safely. You cannot do a rote function with two different systems and expect to not have screwups. That's why you pick one or the other.

Thumb break leather holsters have also been responsible for many ND's on Glocks (like the DEA guy in the classroom with the kids) and so have numerous other accessories. (really you have to give the guy credit for keeping his cool after shooting himself cuz you know it had to hurt bigtime, but you have to follow that with why in the hell was he presenting a loaded gun in a class room full of 8 year old kids in the first place. Might he be an idiot?)

HOWEVER !

At the end of the day YOU are responsible everytime your gun is fired. Whether or not you meant it to or NOT!

It's as simple as that.

Saying that a modern firearm like a Glock or a highend 1911 is defective and went off on it's own is just plain naive, and very difficult to prove unless you can make it do it repeatedly, in which case you need to get it fixed. But really this is going to be the remote exception, and the vast majority of ND's are not firearm related they are idiot related!

Randy

[mongo]

I have seen more than a couple AD's in the locker room. They all were caused by the trigger being pulled by a finger. Sometimes alchol was involved. Never saw a gun go off all by it self. Not saying it cant happen, I just wouldnt believe it,,lol

[BD]

I guess I don't see this sort of accident as being dependent on pistol design. It sounds like this guy could easily have shot himself in exactly the same manner with a Glock.
BD

[rintinglen]

In 1984, while attempting to arrest a car thief, an officer had an AD that blew a golf ball size chunk out of his butt and left him with a permanent limp. He had the suspect at gun point, ordered him to drop the screw driver. When the subject did so, Mike attempted to reholster his Combat Commander. The thumb snap bumped the extended safety lever off safe, the strap got in the trigger guard, his hand was on the grip with his finger outside the trigger guard along the frame. The 4 pound trigger did the rest.

The Chief promptly disallowed all semi=automatics for duty carry and Revolvers came back out of the lockers. In 1992 when they were re-authorized, only double-action semi autos with safeties were allowed. I carried a Smith M-39 until I left.

[Char-Gar]

Any mechanical device can fail including a 1911 pistol.

1. Bill Jordon came in from jogging one day with a LW Colt Commander cocked and locked. He flicked off the safety at home and BANG. The pistol seemed to work and function as usual. After a length analysis, it was decided it was due to "tolerance stack up". There are small tolerances for all of those parts and those can stack up in such a way as to cause an AD.

2. I had a Colt GM and the wife felt it was unsafe for me to carry it around cocked and locked. I explained to her how it was impossible to fire unless the safety was off and the trigger and grip safety were pressed at the same time. I unloaded the pistol to demonstrate how it worked and the trigger dropped the hammer without the grip safety being depressed.

Well, that did nothing to increase the wife's confidence in Browning's design. That one went back to the Colt factory for repair. I could have done it myself, but I wanted the wife to have confidence in the fix.

Most ADs are human error, but any pistol can do the unexpected and the impossible at times. The only full proof safety is what is between somebody's ears, it that is activated at the moment.

[Moonie]

I have a Serpa, the issue isn't with the design at all, if you keep pressure with your index finger during the draw it naturally falls OUTSIDE the trigger guard, at least it does for me, and I have short fingers...

I would love for someone to demonstrate otherwise.

That incident was purely ND NOT AD, even the idiot that shot himself admits it.

[BD]

It's incidents like the one rintinglen reported that interest me. I'm sure that there are sets of circumstances that can combine to cause an AD while holstering, or drawing, any design of pistol. I have a real personal interest in identifying those circumstances relative to the 1911. It's long been my feeling that the 1911 cocked and locked is generally a safer setup than a striker fired pistol for CC. However, my opinion is based only on my own experience and I'd like to expand that database as much as possible.

I carry in fitted leather holsters, no thumb breaks or mechanical retention devices. The triggers are completely covered on the draw and I have to be deliberate in re-holstering. But, there are always other factors that can come into play. The more educated we are concerning those other factors, the safer we can be.

I have one good brand name holster I used for five years or so to carry a 3" 1911. Several times I noticed that the thumb safety had come "off" during the day. So I stitched on a leather "button" shaped like a comma that forces the safety on when the pistol is holstered and holds the safety on securely while holstered. It can't get bumped off and you can't thumb it off in the holster. I'm wondering why some form of this feature couldn't be incorporated into the kydex holsters?
BD

[smokeywolf]

I think BD has written very well, some of my thoughts.

It seems that a significant percentage of ADs or NDs have occurred with guns having extended or ambidextrous safeties and/or modified trigger pulls. Holsters requiring very specific finger/thumb placement or actions, or a combination of a modified or tricked out 1911 and a holster requiring particular attention in its operation.

I would be very interested in seeing a pic of you holster with the button that insures the position of your thumb safety. This sounds like the right way to modify a holster. Enhancing safety rather than focusing on speeding up the draw.

smokeywolf