250-310 grain roundflat .454 dia ?

[Willbird]

Ok things are calming down over here hehe, and I have been researching 45 colt ctg. and now I need a 250-310 grain plain based bullet to cast .454 or so in WW metal, I'm open as to Keith or round flat design as long as it has a decent Meplet.

Put in all the grease grooves you want at long as they are spaced .125 apart.

this would be a great casull or 45 colt bullet to load the ctg. to the potential Mr. Linbaugh says it has.


Bill

[45 2.1]

Something like this:

[Willbird]

I guess as long as we are dreaming.....:-)

What would that bad boy weight in WW ??


Bill

[Dutch4122]

I just picked up a "PRS" 250 grn mold that came from a different custom run done by a CAS group, so I have the 250 weight covered. How about making this one a full 300 grns when cast of wheelweight?

[Willbird]

I'm all for 300-310 grains, the 45 colt has plenty of boiler room to get that weight to 1200fps in a 4-5/8's bbl, which is plumb amazing to me.

Bill

[45 2.1]

It should weigh about 275 gr. LEE already makes a really good 300+ gr. six cavity (C452-300-RF) and there are allot of NEI and custom keith 300 grainers out there too that are proved already. A nice RF at 275 would be good in both rifle and pistol.

[Willbird]

The issue with the 300 with me is that it is a gascheck bullet.

middle of the road is fine also tho.


Bill

[ddixie884]

45 2.1, That is a damn fine bullet gesign. I'm just sorry I found this site too late to get in on the 452423 group buy. You folks are on the right track.

[Dutch4122]

It should weigh about 275 gr. LEE already makes a really good 300+ gr. six cavity (C452-300-RF) and there are allot of NEI and custom keith 300 grainers out there too that are proved already. A nice RF at 275 would be good in both rifle and pistol.

Sounds good to me. Count me in if we get enough interest for a group buy; that is, if I don't go broke from all these custom runs ;)

[Rrusse11]

45,
Good weight range,,,,, now about the GC version,,,,,,, {:o). That's what I want! Perfect in the Casull or 460S&W rifle, aircooled pushing 2000fps, a devastating hunting boolit.
Cheers,
R*2

[Willbird]

Well the gaschecked version is on the shelf at Lee already :-)

Bill

[Rrusse11]

Well the gaschecked version is on the shelf at Lee already :-)

Bill

Bill,
The only GC mould from Lee that I'm aware of is the C452-300-WFN or RF as they label it. Not a good design at all IMHO. Something in between the 250 and 300gr standard offerings with a smaller meplat and therefore a more radiused nose would feed better in a lever action, and it would get away from the poor shank/band configuration.
I'd like to see something like this;
http://www.marlinowners.com/gallery/albums/userpics/C453-275-RF.JPG
Cheers,
R*2

[45 2.1]

R*2-
You ever thought of setting up to put Freechecks on those plain base bullets? It's pretty easy to do with just your RCBS or Lyman sizer setup.
Freechecks can go easily over 2000 fps and provide excellent performance and accuracy.

[Rrusse11]

R*2-
You ever thought of setting up to put Freechecks on those plain base bullets? It's pretty easy to do with just your RCBS or Lyman sizer setup.
Freechecks can go easily over 2000 fps and provide excellent performance and accuracy.

45,
Don't have a RCBS or Lyman size, I use the Lee push thru dies. I've heard of the Freechecks, doesn't Paco Kelly have something to do with 'em. From memory though the tooling was damn expensive.
Cheers,
R*2
Ps. In the "best of all possible worlds", what I'd like to see, would be a 6cav mould with half PB and the other half GC'ed.

[Willbird]

I myself just cannot get past spending 10-15 dollars per thousand to apply gaschecks which for what most people do with a pistol are not needed....more power to the guys that want them or need them, but My goal was to launch those 310's at a sedate 1200fps from a 4-5/8 blackhawk.

:-)

Bill

[Rrusse11]

I myself just cannot get past spending 10-15 dollars per thousand to apply gaschecks which for what most people do with a pistol are not needed....more power to the guys that want them or need them, but My goal was to launch those 310's at a sedate 1200fps from a 4-5/8 blackhawk.

:-)

Bill

And I want to push them past 2000fps in a rifle! Lol. This is the problem with the 'group buy', here we have the perfect example of widely varying requirements. {:o)
Cheers,
R*2

[45 2.1]

Freechecs solve both problems at almost no cost.
Bill, i have news for you, 1200 fps with a 275 to 300 gr. bullet in the 45 colt is NOT sedate.

[grumble]

"Freechecs solve both problems at almost no cost."

Are these the checks that are stamped from Al cans? Been a long time since I looked into it, but as I recall, the stamp sets were pretty expensive and very time consuming to use. Is there another method I haven't heard about?

[45 2.1]

"Freechecs solve both problems at almost no cost."

Are these the checks that are stamped from Al cans? Been a long time since I looked into it, but as I recall, the stamp sets were pretty expensive and very time consuming to use. Is there another method I haven't heard about?

What you need to do this is a RCBS or Lyman lubrisizer, your normal H&I die that needs to be altered on the top of the H die and a wad punch of the correct diameter. This will cost you about 30 to 35 dollars once you have the lubrisizer and will let you do an unlimited number of Freechecs once you have those items. It can be done for most any caliber as long as you do it on plain based bullets. I've done this for allot of years on several calibers.

[grumble]

"...your normal H&I die that needs to be altered on the top of the H die and a wad punch of the correct diameter..."

Pardon my being so dense. How is the H die modified? Does the check crimp to the base of a boolit, or does it just stick on?

[Willbird]

http://www.linebaughcustom.com/Default.aspx?tabid=112

Well I think 1200 is sedate if you consider the ctg./bullet combo will safely do 1300+. I was fishing a bit with that line hehe.

1200 with a 250 is for sure sedate when the ctg. will safely push it to 1491 fps.

Bill

[45 2.1]

"...your normal H&I die that needs to be altered on the top of the H die and a wad punch of the correct diameter..."

Pardon my being so dense. How is the H die modified? Does the check crimp to the base of a boolit, or does it just stick on?

It is swaged on while sizing the bullet. The top of the die has a recess lathed into it to hold the aluminum disc, an alignment disc is put on the top retaining nut and the bullet is paced thru the alignment hole, then the bullet is sized swaging the aluminum disc onto the bullet. More to it than that, but you should get the idea.

Bill, I see you haven't done it yet.

[Scrounger]

"Freechecs solve both problems at almost no cost."

Are these the checks that are stamped from Al cans? Been a long time since I looked into it, but as I recall, the stamp sets were pretty expensive and very time consuming to use. Is there another method I haven't heard about?

Grumble, have you looked into 'soft gas checks'? this is a little disc or wad of soft wax I think it is. Scopes and other things come wrapped in it for cushioning purposes. Looks like a sheet of thin, nearly translucent foam rubber. "Meat" trays from the supermarket are the same stuff, and you can buy it in sheets from MCMillan-Carr. Anyway, I have read that a thin disc of that under a plain base bullet serves some of the same functions as a gas check, one nice benefit is it leaves a pretty clean barrel. There are numerous sources of the material and it's easy enough to try...

[grumble]

Ok, many thanks.

[grumble]

"...have you looked into 'soft gas checks'?..."

Yep, I've played with them some. I've also made wax wads by soaking a paper towel in melted boolit lube. Both help some with sealing the boolit-barrel junction, but not as good as a gas check. The wax wads did real well in my Marlin 45-70, though.

[Bodydoc447]

What about the RCBS 45-270 SAA? I have a double cavity of this and the bullets are really nice. I would like a six cavity of that one for sure! I guess the nose isn't radiused enough for some but I have the Lee 452-300 RNGC in a 6 cavity and love it, too. I load it to an easy 1150 fps with WC820 in my Blackhawk.

[lar45]

What's the 45-270 SAA look like?

I would really like something in the 270gn range and plain base with an 80% nose similar to the first drawing.

We should look at the nose length to make sure it will feed through a 45 or 454 lever gun.

[felix]

I purchased 500 cases of 45 colt from Top Hat Brass. I will let the board know of the value of these cases for pressure capacity in sloppy chambers. I don't want to destroy my collection of WRA cases especially shooting these magnum boolits. I have some 300 grainer LBT's that sure do tear up cases in the lever gun. ... felix

[Willbird]

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/theme.htm

[StarMetal]

Felix

I have shot some basically Casual loader in my Winchester Mod 94 Trapper 45LC with a 260 gr cast bullet with some massive loads of 4227 with both Winchester and Starline brass and it didn't tear them up. Tore my shoulder up though. Anyways it's claimed that the Winchester has a really fat chamber. The chamber isn't as tight as say my Ruger Blackhawk or Smith 25 but it's not that bad either. I don't shoot those loads anymore and I'm not posting them here because they were really really hot.

Joe

[felix]

Well, Joe, my loads are what would be considered normal in all respects. I won't ever shoot loads that I cannot publish on this board, and I personally don't want to see any authored by anyone else either. Thanks for NOT showing your loads. It's just that my new (a couple of years old) winnie 94 AE has a chamber which will allow 458 boolits in the fired brass. However, the gun shoots 185-200 grainers very well with that 451 groove, 26 twist, when the loads are "target" acp normal. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix

I had mine for a good number of years, the pre-safety model if you will. I shoot the RCBS 255 gr SWC out of it, but it weights out at about 260 grs when cast of WW's or tad softer. It does shoot very good. I hae a set of receiver sights on it and for awhile I shot quite a few groundhops up in PA with it. I size them to .452. Most the work I do with now is that RCBS bullet over 9 grs of Unique.

No need to thank me for not posting that load, I won't post anything that's not in the books.

Joe

[Willbird]

Actually that RCBS boolit is awful flippin sweet I say :-)


Bill

[carpetman]

Starmetal----Those groundhogs you shot up in Pa. What do you do with them after you size them to .452?

[Willbird]

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt45lc.htm

more 45 colt reading material, Sam Colt and even Elmer Keith would respect a 340 grain bullet at 1200fps

Bill

[wills]

"Freechecs solve both problems at almost no cost."

Are these the checks that are stamped from Al cans? Been a long time since I looked into it, but as I recall, the stamp sets were pretty expensive and very time consuming to use. Is there another method I haven't heard about?

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=7829

[Scrounger]

Starmetal----Those groundhogs you shot up in Pa. What do you do with them after you size them to .452?

Need more meat for jerky, Ray? Cats getting scarce in your neck of the woods? Ever thought of sheep jerky, or too much emotional baggage there?

[45 2.1]

So, is this going anywhere? Like toward a group buy.

[Willbird]

My vote is for the 270 grain RCBS bullet plain based 4545 as cast in WW


Bill

[Bodydoc447]

Ditto that! A six banger 45-270-SAA would be the cat's meow. I'd be in for that.
Doc

[45 2.1]

I like my own. Since these are custom runs, they should be something that you can't already get.

[Willbird]

I really Like yours too 452...

Actually I went back and looked at it again, and must say I like it a LOT...the Keith types have an attraction (I'm an old guy, been shooting for 35 years) but as you say one can pick up a mold for them for novelty sake.

I think if we cross posted your bullet over on leverguns and some other places, we might get 100 :-) (even if I have to take 75 myself hehe)


Bill

[Bodydoc447]

BUT, the 45-270-SAA is only available in a double cavity. RCBS does not even make 4 cavity molds (at least that I have been able to find). I would like a six cavity, which is NOT available except as a custom run. That was what I was trying to express in my earlier post. On the other hand, 45.2.1's design has GREAT merit and would be an excellent candidate for a custom run.

Doc

[Willbird]

I want them ALL hehe :-)


Bill

[13Echo]

I like the design 45 2.1 posted. If someone decides to do a group buy, count me in. Ya'll are costing me a lot in moulds but I'm game for more. Keep 'em coming.

Jerry Liles

[Dutch4122]

I'll keep my vote with 45 2.1's design.

Besides, has anybody considered that Lee may not be willing or able to produce a RCBS design? And, possibly RCBS might not like the idea of one of their designs being produced by a competitor.

Just something to think about.

[lar45]

45 2.1, what's the nose length and overall length of your bullet drawing? Estimated weight?

[45 2.1]

45 2.1, what's the nose length and overall length of your bullet drawing? Estimated weight?

Nose to crimp groove = 0.340"
O.A.L. = 0.740"
About 265 to 275 gr. approx.

[lar45]

Nose to crimp groove = 0.340"
O.A.L. = 0.740"
About 265 to 275 gr. approx.

Did you do a volume density estimate on it?
I looked on Dan's website and it looks like a length of about .67" will give us 270gns
with .74" comeing in around 305gns.
I'll take some of my 340gn slugs and turn the base off to see what I come up with.
I do like the looks of your bullet though and think it will be a winner.

[45 2.1]

Did you do a volume density estimate on it?
I looked on Dan's website and it looks like a length of about .67" will give us 270gns
with .74" comeing in around 305gns.
I'll take some of my 340gn slugs and turn the base off to see what I come up with.
I do like the looks of your bullet though and think it will be a winner.

Frankly, I don't trust Dans figures. I use real bullets as comparisons. A 457191 comes in at 295 gr. and it is 0.782" long. The 454190 at 255 gr. is 0.692" long. The 454423 we just did is 240 gr. and its 0.648" long. A 452490 is 230 gr. and its 0.702" long. None of your or Dans figures fit in there on real bullets, do they? You do the math cosidering the grease grooves are larger than most of the others.

Lar45- I did some calculations and came out at 276 gr.

[J Miller]

45 2.1,

The bullet you have designed is exactly what I have been toying with designing myself. The only difference is I was aiming for 270-280 grs at .454" with 16-1 alloy with one large lube grove and a crimp grove. Also the flat nose would be very flat, not slightly domed like some bullets I've seen.

My thinking is a bullet that will seat out to an OAL of 1.60" so it can be used in all unaltered guns, lever and revolver. But with a large crisp meplat for a good smack 'em down for keeps hunting bullet.

I don't know if I could join a group buy right now, but let me know if it goes that far and I will try.

Joe

[Willbird]

Perfectly flat will not drop out of the mold well, that is why they put a slight radius or angle on the end IMHO.

Bill

[lar45]

Lee asks for a 3 deg draft on the nose to help release I believe.

Does anyone have the density of WW handy?

If it's calculated at 276gns, that's close enough for me.
I just remember buying some molds that were guestimated and the actual weight came in about 20+gns heavier than expected.

for the 358-180 we did, I took the length from Dan's site and the finished product came in real close to 180gns.

[Cayoot]

Ok, I'm kinda confused (partly cuz I've been away on a new job so much that I haven't had time to keep up here, so today I'm kinda "Cram Reading" and I'm also partly confused cuz I'm just an accountant and we are always confused!)

But I figgure that you guys have always come up with great designs before and Wilbird steered me right on the Star Bullet Luber (thanks again), so count me in on what ever you guys decide.

[45 2.1]

45 2.1
I turned a bullet as close to your dimensions as I could get it. It weighs 277gns from WW.
Some minor concerns, the lube grooves look really DEEP. I'm wondering if this will cause problems with releaseing from the mold.
Glenn- the lube grooves are the same as the 454423 bullet that we just did and they drop out pretty well. You can ask the others about how theirs cast, but i'm satisfied with mine. The bullet is actually a copy of the Lyman 454190 I have that is the most accurate long range bullet I have that is modified in length some and has more lube capacity.

A 340gn mold that I have from Dan that shoots really well in my 454 has lube grooves that are .420".
I'm sure Dans bullet shoots well for you, but this is a different design.

I would personally prefer a meplat of between .32 and .36" instead of the .25"
The meplat is a direct copy of the Lyman 457191 bullet that has perform very well for me on game and target. The meplat is at 55%. I have had allot of trouble when using a meplat of 60% and above at lower velocities, they just don't shoot well at low velocities. This is mainly for the 45 colt. You have Dans bullet that shoots well for you, why not use that bullet for your hunting. Most folks here want it for plinking, deer, carbines and small game.

Thoughts?

I like it as is.