Savage NRA Mod 19 and Lyman 438 Field Scope

[H.Callahan]

My father died a few years ago. He had a .22 that used to belong to my uncle from when he was young. After Dad's death, we were in turmoil as we were moving and dealing with a serious family health issue. The rifle got stored with barely a glance at it.

Got it out this weekend and have a few questions about it. Turns out that it is a Savage NRA Model 19 (after looking at some photos on-line, I think it is what they call a Model 19-33, although that is not designated on the gun anywhere). Mounted on the dovetail rails is an old Lyman 438 Field Scope.

The wood is in fantastic shape. A few small dings and a little wear/patina from use and age. The bluing is probably about 75% with the main loss being between the end of the forearm running to a couple of inches short of the front sight. I am pretty sure that it sat in my uncle's gun cabinet for years and I suspect the wear comes years of sitting in contact with the felt. Bore looks really good -- not mirror bright, but sharp and not worn.

Physically, the sight is in good shape. Very little external wear, some minor corrosion on the mounts, but not too bad. The main problem is that after sitting for, literally, decades with the scope pointed up, there is a dried on crust of dirt and **** on the front objective. In spite of that, you can actually see through the scope, although it is very low contrast due to the build up. Also the eye relief is REALLY short. Don't know if that is normal or as a result of the dust/age/whatever. Now, the front objective is recessed in the tube about 5 inches and I can't figure out any good way to get to it to try to clean it. I can't find any instructions or manuals for the scope on-line to see if it is removable somehow (do we have any optics experts around here?).

Just for giggles, since I CAN still see through the scope, I took it out to the range. The gun was completely dry, so I oiled the action up some and ran some patches down the barrel to knock out any dust/grime/whatever. I set up a target at the 25 yard berm and fired away. I wasn't expecting a whole lot -- the gun was old, not mistreated, but somewhat neglected, the target was a bit fuzzy through the site and the eye relief made me crane my head unnaturally forward, so it was difficult to ensure a consistent hold, etc. I fired 5 rounds (what the magazine holds) and checked the target. I almost fell over when all 5 shots were in a nice little cluster about 3/8" big! Ok, so now the gun has my attention! I would like to rehabilitate this gun a bit, and see what it can really do. Apparently, this was considered a fairly decent target rifle in its day.

The first problem is with the scope. What what little I have been able to find, it apparently was considered a good target class scope for its era. It is not effectively usable in its current condition. Does anyone know how to get to the front objective to clean it thoroughly? With a cleaning rod, I can get to the center, but not to the edges of the glass. Is it possible to disassemble the scope without ruining it?

If I have to replace the scope, what would the current equivalent of that be? Are mounting rings for the dovetails on the gun still available somewhere? Also, the gun apparently came with an aperture sight that is long gone. Are THEY still available or is there a modern equivalent?

I have also heard that originally there were 10 shot magazines available. Are they still?

Basically, I need information on both the gun and the scope so I can decide what the future of this gun is going to be.

(Just so you can see what I am talking about, here are some pix from the Internet. I will try to get some of the actual gun at some point):

http://www.pbase.com/loggah/image/140879735/original.jpg
Mine looks like the bottom one with the rear iron site missing and the scope installed.

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/6331201338/10245799/p3060154.jpg_thumbnail0.jpg
This is the sight. It has micrometer adjustment knobs and is an external adjustment.

[wv109323]

The model 19 is indeed a very fine rifle and quite accurate as you have already noticed. The mounting system for rifles of this era (POSA mounts) leaves a lot to be desired by todays standards. Quality scopes such as Unertl in this mounting system are going for unreal prices. In todays market a Unertl of 10X would easily be $300.00 and probably more.
You best bet would be to find someone that could service and clean you existing scope. The only other option would be to have someone to drill and tap the receiver to accept a modern mounting system ( bases and rings)and use a modern scope. In my opinion that ruins the value of the gun and is kinda like putting a supercharger on a model A Ford.

[H.Callahan]

I didn't know anyone actually offers a service/clean service. Do you have anyone in mind?

I DID figure out the eye relief problem though. Apparently the tube (and seems to be designed to) slides forward and back in the mounts. There is an adjustable stop ring in front of the front mount to limit the backward travel. When I originally shot it, the tube had been pushed forward to the point that to get a good view through the scope, your eye had to be almost over the firing pin striker knob. Made me look like I had a dread muscle disease trying to use it like that. I pulled the tube back to the stop and, bingo, perfect sight picture. Still dirty and kinda smeary looking but at least serviceable. Not sure why one would want/need to pull the tube back and forth, nor why that doesn't change the zero, but it doesn't seem to at least by looking through the sight and moving the tube.

I also changed my opinion of the bore, as well. After cleaning it up after shooting it this weekend, the bore is NOW mirror bright. I guess it needed a few rounds through it to get out any crusted dust or whatever was in there.

It is looking like this might be turning out to be a good find!

[wv109323]

I have never used these guys but there is: parsonsscoperepair.com of Cinncinati ,Ohio and Gary Fellers Gun Sites and Scopes of Ft. Worth, Texas. Gary mostly deals in the sale of vintage scopes for a replacement.
IIRC, Parsons used to advertise in Shotgun News a long time ago.

[wv109323]

Also, The Unertl's have an adjustable spring dampened eye relief. You set the eye relief and then set the spring dampened mechanism to maintain the setting. The scope can not freely slide back and forth.

[H.Callahan]

Also, The Unertl's have an adjustable spring dampened eye relief. You set the eye relief and then set the spring dampened mechanism to maintain the setting. The scope can not freely slide back and forth.
Yeah, I have an Unertl on a custom built .22-250 that I have. Fantastic scope! I am familiar with the spring dampening. However this one doesn't have one and none of the pictures I've dug up on the internet show it either. On a .22lr, I'm not really sure why it would be needed. Which brings me back as to why the tube would need to be able to move fore and back -- particularly without a spring or something to return it back to battery.

However since I have it back in the correct position (I think), it is MUCH more usable. That front objective still needs to be cleaned, but I think I can now use it until I figure it out or give up and send it to someone. Thanks for the references, BTW.

Also I have seen this scope referred to as an Unertl a couple times. Did Lyman used to own Unertl or vice versa?

I wish I could find some sort of manual or reference for this thing...

[Bret4207]

I have some older scopes similar to yours, though mine are not Lymans. You might use your google-fu and search for a place that deals in cleaning vintage optical instruments like telescopes or transits. I was going to suggest some long cotton swabs like Brownells sells and some Windex, but it's hard to say what glue is holding the lenses in. Under no circumstances tough anything with alcohol. The old timers used to secure the lenses with a natural gum of some type that alcohol can dissolve. I'm not sure Lyman ever used that type of stuff, but why risk it.

THe old scope almost all suffered from what we think of as very short and narrow eye relief. Nature of the beast I'm afraid. I have a Wollensak, the forerunner to Redfield, on a Savage 23A. Wonderful scope in good light, not so much in the woods!

Lyman never owned Unertl or had anything to do with them AFAIK. Many people have this idea that only Unertl made the big externally adjusted target scopes and simply assume if it looks like a Unertl in general appearance, it must be one. Lyman had their own line of Targetspot and Junior Targetspot externally adjusted scopes, they had a line up into the 70's IIRC. There were others whose names escape me at the moment, Winchester for one, but even Mossberg made a similar, smaller scope. Col Whelen put a book out that outlines most of those older scopes, Sharpes book also covers some, and there is a collectors book out there too.

[L Ross]

I have owned a Lyman 438 and shot it. It now belongs to a friend of mine who shoots it in 22 BPCR silhouette and does well ith it. Mine had the field style external adjusters which require the user to turn the locking knob which I think was left hand thread then adjust the windage or elevation, then lock the knob back down. I believe I read that Lyman also made a "target" style click adjustable mount for the 438. Just for information the Malcolm Leatherwood 17" long 3x and 18' long 6x use the exact same external adjustment system as the old 438. You can shop around and pick one up for under 300 bucks. They are wonderfully clear scopes and the 3x works nicely as a hunting or casual target scope. I measured my elevation from the bottom of the scope to the top of the receiver with a digital caliper and recorded those reading for 50, 100, 150, and 200 yards. They are totally repeatable. My friends and I are talking about making a metal gauge in a stair step configuration to slip between the scope and reciever for quick range changes in our silhouette matches.

Duke

[gnoahhh]

That scope was made before coating of lenses became standard. Try a moistened Q-tip to gently dislodge the worst of it, then switch to a Q-tip wetted with lens cleaner. I would strongly recommend not taking it apart. If you break those fine wire cross hairs you'll be hating life! They were a decent small game hunting scope in their day, a little low powered to be a really great target scope IMO. Value? Probably somewhere north of $200. How far north would be determined by the clean-ability of that lens. Comparable Unertl Small Game scopes (4x and 6x) start at around $600 and go up, when they surface, but they are considered to be better quality than this one. Sometimes a deal can be had on a a comparable Fecker or Litschert, but don't hold your breath.

Nothing wrong with Unertl-style scope blocks which I assume you are referring to when you say "rails". Remember, these type scopes weren't intended for rough-and-ready extreme hunting. They are quite sufficient for their intended use.

External adjustment scopes like this one, and Unertl, et al, intended for use on .22's typically didn't utilize a return spring to hold the scope in battery. You're right, SOP was to push the scope back in position after each shot. (The old timers shooting prone with them used their left thumb to push back against the objective bell rather than reach up and grasp it and pull it back.) Why you ask? Simple. They were intended to free float so as to deflect recoil impulses that could play hob with the delicate internals. (Admittedly much more of an issue with centerfires than with RF's.) You could, if you want, install a locking collar and spring on it- or just get in the habit of pushing it back after each shot. Not a big deal.

Those Savage 19-33's will shoot. Don't expect it to deliver the accuracy of a M52 bull barrel, but it'll hold the 10-ring if you do your part.

Original rear receiver sights weren't the best thing going. They tend to have a lot of backlash in the adjustment screws. Savvy shooters back in the day replaced them with Lyman 48Y's, or with scopes.

Lyman 48Y's, original magazines, original sights, etc. turn up on fleabay from time to time. Be careful of the magazines- not all M19 mags were the same. Big difference between the early M19NRA and the later 19-33 like yours.

Hope this helps a bit.

[H.Callahan]

It ALL helps as I know very little about either the gun or the scope.

I had considered a Q-tip to clean the lens, but I think the recess is too much to be able to hang on to the other end. I know they make long handled Q-tips, but I have not seen any around here. I am thinking perhaps a new wooden pencil with an unused eraser with a lens cleaning cloth wrapped (and rubber banded, maybe) a little lens cleaner. I used to be big into cameras in the days of film and still have a lot of lens cleaner and lens cloth. I assume the cleaner would not be detrimental to the scope as it was designed for camera lenses.

By rails, I mean the dovetail mounts that were installed (as I don't see them on pictures of the gun on the Internet, I assume they were not standard issue) on the receiver and in front of the chamber on the barrel.

Now that I figured out that the scope is free to move front and back, the eye relief issue is pretty much gone. When I first shot it, the scope was moved WAY forward and I almost had to break my neck to keep the gun shouldered while trying to get my eye close enough to get a full sight picture. Was real comical looking to an outsider. Now that I have it back all the way to the stop, it is just about right with a normal hold. The quality degradation seems to be less now as well. Probably just my perception, but the dirty objective seems not to appear as bad as it did when looking through the lens. Still looks crappy when looking directly at it.

The adjustment knobs on the rear are micrometer type. I didn't see any kind of locking mechanism on them. Just turning them causes them to click and change adjustment. I assume the mount is some kind of target type mount.

If I have Google-fu'ed correctly (and my Google-fu is more like Google-excrement), I think Brownell's still carry the mags for the later Model 19's like this one. The older ones with the knob on the bottom to remove them are much harder to find and more expensive. I have read that the Brownell mags might need a small amount of filing on the notch to fit correctly.

I think the thing that surprised me the most was after all the years of sitting around and moving between my uncle, my father and myself, and then the tube being pushed forward, that the scope was still dead on. That 3/8" group I shot was spot on in the middle of the bullseye. With all the handicaps the rifle, the scope and I were working under, it did a remarkable job. I would like to give it all some TLC and see what it can do.

If I do replace the scope and go back to aperture sights on the rear (but I haven't given up on the scope yet!), I don't necessarily need to be "period correct" with it. As the original sight is long gone, I would rather have something that works well. No sense handcuffing the rifle (or me). All I need to do is make sure it fits. BTW, does anyone know if the old iron sights were held on by a single screw? I only see one hole unless the other is used for the rear scope base -- but that looks like a fair distance from the open hole.

[gnoahhh]

Any receiver sight you find that's intended for the 19-33 will be period correct whether you want it to be or not!

Mags with the knob on the bottom are for the M1919.

I'm a little hazy about where your scope blocks are mounted. On the barrel and on the receiver ring or back on the bridge? There should be two holes on top of the bridge for the receiver sight.

[rbuck351]

I have one of the 1919NRA rifles and didn't want to drill it for a scope base so I used one of the rear sight screw holes and mounted a weaver universal 22 base on it. I used epoxy between the scope base and the action to make sure the single screw would hold. It's been on for almost 30 years now. I took it to the range a few weeks back and shot it with the new Peters ammo in the brown brick. The first 5 shot group at 50yds was just over 1/2". I will be passing this one on to one of my grand kids. I hope one of them appreciates it as much as I. You would have to pay a fair sum to get a better rifle.

[gnoahhh]

I agree. Value for dollars spent is excellent with the 1919-series of Savages. They hold their own with any but the highest end match rifles. The only issue I ever had with them is the fact that the receivers and barrels are one piece. Granted, a moot point since given reasonable care a .22 barrel will last several lifetimes, but on the off chance one gets screwed up...

[H.Callahan]

http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww292/bigdaddy44special/fred2109.jpg

Ok, this isn't my gun (I am having camera issues), but it is another Mod19 (earlier model than mine) with the Lyman scope on it. Mine is mounted similarly. The scope shown is a better match for my scope than the first picture as this one has the micrometer adjustment that I are on mine. My scope is mounted similarly to this one. The only difference on my scope that I can see, is that I don't have the bell on the eyepiece end. My eyepiece end matches what is on the objective end.

I also tried the pencil w/eraser and lens cloth/lens cleaner thing. It actually worked pretty well. As far as I can see, most or all of the caked up dust is gone and the objective now appears shiny. Looking through the scope, it is a little brighter and much clearer. The only issue seems to be some black -- "flecks" for a lack of a better word -- around the circumference of the image. That may be some internal contamination of some sort. However, that is mainly cosmetic when looking through the sight and really doesn't seem to interfere with usability. Maybe I can send it in for a complete cleaning when I am feeling flush. BTW, on Lyman website I found this:


Lyman has not manufactured scopes for quite some time. We have sold the last of our parts and fixtures to a company in Ohio, who is currently making repairs to the scopes. We would recommend you contact them directly at: Parsons Scope Service 2213 Smith Road PO Box 192 Ross, OH 45061 513-867-0820
So it looks like Parsons Scope Service is "blessed" by Lyman. I'll have to contact them and see what they say.

[H.Callahan]

Ok, I finally got some crappy pictures. These are from a cheap cell phone & flash and the lighting is not the best:

http://i.imgur.com/yRKv5.jpg

I don't know why some of the areas look like they are rusted. They definitely aren't. There seems to be redish orange light coming from somewhere (probably the window in the room that has maroon curtains). At any rate the worst some areas have is a patina, and a couple of places on the barrel that are close to bear metal. The last shot is closer to what the actual finish looks like.

[gnoahhh]

Nice looking rig! Have fun with it! That bell-shaped eyepiece you see on that other gun is actually a rubber eye cup/protector.

[KCSO]

Try the Leatherwood Malcolm scope, it should work just fine and snap right into those bases.
I have fit a few of these to classic target rifles and they are good scopes, you want the 17" in either 3x or 6x.

[H.Callahan]

Try the Leatherwood Malcolm scope, it should work just fine and snap right into those bases.
I have fit a few of these to classic target rifles and they are good scopes, you want the 17" in either 3x or 6x.
Dang, those a pricey! However, it is a good alternative if needed. At the moment, the dummy-cleaned (ie, me) scope is workable. There is still some crud around the circumference, but the center is pretty clear at this point. I need to get it out to the range again and make sure the adjustments work ok. They turn and the adjusting screw turns with it , but some of the detents are a little less positive than others. Not sure if that is adjustable or not. Also, does any one know if the recess in the middle of the adjustment knobs, which looks like it might take an allen screw or something, is for disengaging the knobs from the adjustment to set the indices to zero? Also, would one expect those to be ½ MOA adjustments or would they be ¼ MOA?