Hug triggers fatal shooting?

[Dragoon 45]

This doesn't make any sense to me. How does a woman hug an officer from the rear and end up shot through the heart and lungs from an accidental discharge?

http://www.krmg.com/ap/ap/us/police-hug-triggers-officers-gun-kills-woman/nPpTJ/

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Sounds fishy to me. Maybe the blue wall is protecting this officer guy.

[frankenfab]

Horizontal shoulder holster? That's why I don't wear them anymore. I see it as a possible liability.

[L Ross]

Off duty? Well I have a shoulder rig that holds a semi auto horizontally under my left arm pit, muzzle pointed to the rear. Spare mags under the right arm.

Duke

[Joe504]

This had to have been a concealed shoulder holster. Only thing that makes sense. Hard to see how this would happen if the safety was on.

[WILCO]

She should've just stayed home and celebrated like an adult. Bad things happen in the wee hours when booze is involved. I've never understood the mentality of "Partying" because it's a birthday.

[Plate plinker]

Horizontal shoulder holster? That's why I don't wear them anymore. I see it as a possible liability.

Yep, I don't like them for the same reason.:shock:

[frankenfab]

I used to wear a HZ rig quite a bit. One day, my brother told me that it made him uncomfortable, seeing the end of the barrel pointing at him when he was behind me. After I thought about it, I would feel the same way.

We aren't supposed to point our guns at anything we don't want to shoot. I realize that the trigger guard is usually enclosed, but that is not good enough for me.

That being said, I wouldn't give anybody a hard time about wearing a horizontal shoulder rig, but I would stay away from them.

[GabbyM]

Sounds like another cocked and locked 1911. Not always so locked.

Which reminds me. I’ve a loaded AR laying on a bed in the spare bedroom. In with a pile of laundry. Need to clear it before retiring tonight.

[Sasquatch-1]

I agree. It sounds like he was wearing a horizontal rig. The big question should be "how did the gun go off?" Unless the young lady was playing with the pistol while she was hugging him.

I have been in fights while wearing this type of rig and never came close to an accidental discharge.

[Rick Hodges]

Glock, no safety (just the little tab on the trigger). He was carrying his duty weapon off duty. Unk type of holster. They don't just go off, someone pressed the trigger.

[Moonie]

Sounds like another cocked and locked 1911. Not always so locked.

Which reminds me. I’ve a loaded AR laying on a bed in the spare bedroom. In with a pile of laundry. Need to clear it before retiring tonight.

Please explain to me how a hug could 1. disengage the manual safety, 2. engage the grip safety and 3. pull the trigger fully to the rear of a 1911, all 3 of which must be done for one to fire.

Assuming it was cocked and not locked omit #1, still lots to overcome to cause an AD in a 1911...

[Dragoon 45]

Some more information is coming out on the shooting. Evidently both the cop and the deceased woman were dancing at the time. While the article does not say so I assume alcohol was involved. So the officer was off duty and partying also.

Even wearing a horizonal shoulder holster, I would still like to know how the weapon went off. And then also, if the off duty cop was drinking what was he doing wearing his service weapon?

[HarryT]

I've read: The officer had a S&W MP40 in an inside the waistband holster.
There's lot's of speculation as to what the lady was doing in order to be shot in the chest by a gun that was muzzle down in a waist high holster.

[mold maker]

I used to wear a HZ rig quite a bit. One day, my brother told me that it made him uncomfortable, seeing the end of the barrel pointing at him when he was behind me. After I thought about it, I would feel the same way.

We aren't supposed to point our guns at anything we don't want to shoot. I realize that the trigger guard is usually enclosed, but that is not good enough for me.

That being said, I wouldn't give anybody a hard time about wearing a horizontal shoulder rig, but I would stay away from them.

If he sees it, It aint concealed. In NC it can't print through your clothes or be visible in any way. If a horizontal holster doesn't totally conceal, It don't pass muster.
It's also not legal to carry concealed where spirits are served. Alcohol and guns, are like drinking and driving, both are deadly.

[frankenfab]

MM, i was talking about at the range at my house.

[BD]

There's more to this than the news story reveals for sure.
On another note, IMO the cocked and locked 1911 is about three times safer than a Glock in this situation.
BD

[Firebricker]

That story just doesn't add up I think a lot more details will be coming out soon. FB

[Super Sneaky Steve]

It seems to me that when accidents like this happen (assuming this was an accident) it's most likely a striker fired pistol.

If my P345 goes off it's because I really wanted it too.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

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[Sasquatch-1]

Here is another one going on in the pit . . . link down there says it was a M&P
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=158919

After reading the article that you posted in the other thread I can come to two conclusions. Both speculative.

#1 Girl dancing with officer in very provacitive manner head at waist level reaches around feels the weapon and starts playing around and pulls trigger.

Police protecting victim

#2 Same dancing scenario but officer wife sees this, gets his weapon and shoots girl.
This scenerio is less likely since she was there with friends and I am sure they would have told the truth.

Police protecting officer

Most quality semi's can be carried with little to no concern about accidental discharge. I am glad the humble Glock was exonerated in this case and the
S & W, M & P accused.

[shooterg]

Short girl, tall officer ? Only way an IWB carried piece could hit her lung/heart.
Hope the officer wasn't drinking.

[wallenba]

I saw one local TV news story on this here. I swore the newscaster said it was a waistband holster. If that's correct, how in he!! could it happen? Any other Detroit area guys hear that?

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

i haven't had a s&w m&p apart but their other striker fired partial reset gun the sigma don't unlock the firing pin till the trigger is fully back


my guess at this mess is she bumped it or it felt like she was grabbing it , he re-actively grabbed it and got his finger on the trigger

or she was dancing very low and behind and ran her hands up then down it pulled it loose from the holster then jammed it back in but some thing got in the trigger guard, finger or clothing when it was jammed back in it went off

[garandsrus]

Here's more:

Miller was dancing behind the officer and "there was some manipulation along the officer's waistline that he did not control" when the department-issued gun fired, striking her in the chest, said Godbee.

"There was no indication the officer placed his hand on his weapon at all," the chief said.

But he allowed that someone, somehow, "manipulated" the trigger to make the weapon fire. That model gun isn't equipped with an external safety but has a safety mechanism built into the trigger, Godbee said.

Godbee said the off-duty holster the officer carried was soft enough for the trigger to be manipulated.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120710/METRO01/207100359#ixzz20HmqObwx

[GabbyM]

I apologize if I’ve offended any 1911 fanatics. With my previous post.
However to say a gun can’t go off because it has layered safety devices is not a wise state of mind. If that statement offends you then at least we are clear as to the subject. Pretty sure we all play with guns as we are members her on a gun forum. I’ve experienced an accidental discharge. After all I’m almost 57 years old. Luckily I only knocked out my air compressor cylinders not my date or whatever there relationship was. Any one of us who thinks that could not happen to them is just being withdrawn. How many of us have not bent a piece of sheet metal on a car? I’ve creased a couple panels in my day. All on my own property. However if I had my choice I’d not carry any auto insurance. They don’t pay anyway and my premiums are based upon my credit score. Which as a worker in manufacturing with a ex wife who had issues simply is not good. Tell me how that reflects upon my driving skills.. I did ditch a car in 1975 when I fell asleep on the way to work. Had $50 Invested in that car.

Under Obama-Nation what will our mandatory insurance fees be to pay for this accidental discharge?

Any of you members here. Which I’ll assume is about 90% of you. Whom feel mandatory auto insurance is a good thing. Can, as Hank Williams Jr. would say, just kiss my ***.

If you can’t see why this story is front page news that simply won’t die. Then you can’t see where Obama /slash/ Romney care is leading us.

We should outlaw mandatory insurance in the USA. As a free people it is mandatory.


If you don’t agree with that lets here your argument on forcing me to pay for some jerks stupid behavior.

I heard today the tax on a six pack of beer is going up a dollar next month as part of your beloved mandatory insurance. Tax on cigarettes going up. what is it 30 or 40 cents per cigarette tax? Obama already voted here in Illinois when he was a crack pipe smoking gay punk to tax ammo at about what I make in a week.

There ‘s a sucker born every minute.

Since this discharge story broke there have been by average 150 to 200 truck drivers die on our US highways last week. Maybe one cop with a 70% likelihood, Then there’s that one girl who died tragically. Her death was tragic but then again I didn’t see any news coverage at all when my niece died of meningitis.

[Bret4207]

Here's more:

Miller was dancing behind the officer and "there was some manipulation along the officer's waistline that he did not control" when the department-issued gun fired, striking her in the chest, said Godbee.

"There was no indication the officer placed his hand on his weapon at all," the chief said.

But he allowed that someone, somehow, "manipulated" the trigger to make the weapon fire. That model gun isn't equipped with an external safety but has a safety mechanism built into the trigger, Godbee said.

Godbee said the off-duty holster the officer carried was soft enough for the trigger to be manipulated.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120710/METRO01/207100359#ixzz20HmqObwx

The way I read that is that she was doing some "dirty dancing" and got it. If she'd been on her knees in front of him, something that happened quite often even back in my day, and he turned while she had her hands on his waist....it could happen. Who knows? As usual you get cryptic descriptions and partial info all fanned with emotion at the loss of this life. One way or the other, something bad happened, his fault or hers or someone elses. That's about all we really know.

[dmize]

Couple simple questions.
WHY was he participating at a "party" while carrying? Whay was for all intents and purposes getting a lap dance while he was carrying?
Sounds to me like a careless officer that didnt even begin to use an ounce of good judgement.

[Moonie]

If he sees it, It aint concealed. In NC it can't print through your clothes or be visible in any way. If a horizontal holster doesn't totally conceal, It don't pass muster.
It's also not legal to carry concealed where spirits are served. Alcohol and guns, are like drinking and driving, both are deadly.

Where does this come from? NC is an open carry state, printing is not an issue as you can carry openly if you wish. It doesn't matter if 1/2 of my gun is visible.

[gwpercle]

Oh yeah, a lot more details will be coming out , especially at that wrongful death civil lawsuit I'm sure momma's gonna file against the officer , the department, the city and the state. I'm sure she's counting them chickens already.

My poor innocent baby had every right to celebrate her birthday. Just what kind of manipulation was going on here ? " is that a pistol in your pocket or are just you glad to see me " . Turns out it was a pistol .

[Bret4207]

Couple simple questions.
WHY was he participating at a "party" while carrying? Whay was for all intents and purposes getting a lap dance while he was carrying?
Sounds to me like a careless officer that didnt even begin to use an ounce of good judgement.

I was waiting for that. What difference does it make if it's a cop exercising his right to carry or anyone else? Does the article say he was drunk? There are many posts here where people tell of carrying in bars or other places. The fact he's a cop should not change the way you look at it. He's off duty and doing nothing reckless according to the story. He may as well have been at Walmart for all that matters.

Do guns and booze mix? Not in my book, but until you produce something verifying he was careless then I say his line of work shouldn't matter. In this respect he's no different than any other guy carrying.

[dmize]

I made NO reference what so ever to whether he was intoxicated or not. I just happen to think there is a time and place for things and it really never struck me that a situation like this would be the time or place.
There are people on here that are almost too paranoid to go to the toilet without "exercising their right". Now the way I see it,if your every thing but bumpin uglies in a crowd,your mind probably could be diverted from your weapon. One bump..someone feels the gun. Two bumps someone locates it. Then you get bumped by four people at the same time and WOW your disarmed.
Reckless or not it was HIS sidearm that was discharged

[x101airborne]

I just cant resist making a morbid joke.

What if he was getting a lap dance and his wife walked in? Maybe he shot her to keep from getting the "Lorena Bobbit" treatment.

I know I am sick. I dont need anyone pointing it out.

[bowfin]

"Is this a pistol in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?"

[BD]

Gabby, it was the comment about "another 1911" cocked and locked that got my goat a little as it seemed to imply that 1911s are more prone to this kind of AD. What was the first one? I believe that we are all somewhat the product of our individual experiences. While I'm sure that it's happened, I personally do not know of any instance of an AD of this sort involving a holstered cocked and locked 1911, while I can think of 4 instances involving striker fired pistols and one involving a revolver.

Not to mention another half dozen NDs that have made the news in the last 5 or 6 years due to the people involved, (LEO's, firearms instructors, sports figures). None of which involved 1911s to the best of my knowledge.
BD

[dmize]

The point of ALL OF THIS, be it 1911,(I personally do not like carrying cocked and locked) and even with target shooting I occasionally have the grip safety on my Kimber and PT 1911 prevent them from firing,or a Glock,Springfield XD,X frame Smith or a Linebaugh friggin Ruger,for ANY gun to fire the trigger HAS TO BE PULLED!!!!!!!! "accidental discarge" is about the stupidest over used term since "I'm sorry"

[Firebricker]

If he was drinking it will come out in the investigation. If the officer wasn't drinking there is no reason he should be criticised. It does seem like he should have been more conscience of his weapon. Fact is it's way to early for speculation. FB

[Bret4207]

I made NO reference what so ever to whether he was intoxicated or not. I just happen to think there is a time and place for things and it really never struck me that a situation like this would be the time or place.
There are people on here that are almost too paranoid to go to the toilet without "exercising their right". Now the way I see it,if your every thing but bumpin uglies in a crowd,your mind probably could be diverted from your weapon. One bump..someone feels the gun. Two bumps someone locates it. Then you get bumped by four people at the same time and WOW your disarmed.
Reckless or not it was HIS sidearm that was discharged

Go over to the "power outage" and you'll see people defending their "right to carry and drink". You accused the guy of carelessness based on the fact he was a cop, not based on any facts that show he was in fact careless. If that info comes out, I'll be in agreement. I wouldn't carry at a bar if I was drinking, not that I'd be out drinking anyway. But that's not the point you try to make. In this instance he;s no different than you or me, just a guy at a party.

[dmize]

Dude, I dont know what part of this I am missing.
What point do you think I am trying to make??
He is a cop and should have been more prudent? I know that was expected of me when I was a LEO.
Or the fact that LEO or Santa Clause it was HIS WEAPON THAT DISCHARGED UNDER SOME PRETTY STUPID CIRCUMSTANCES?
And for the record In my book having a weapon discharged by another person while on your person is careless,reckless and flat out ignorant.

[Bret4207]

Dude, the point is that you base your assertion on his being careless because he's a cop. That's what you said. I was a cop too, big deal. Since you don't have any clue HOW that weapon got fired you owe it to him to give him the same leeway you'd give anyone else. He may have done nothing careless, reckless or ignorant, or he may have been all 3 and drunk off his rocker to boot. But we have no information either way, do we? He's a gun owner exercising his right and SOMETHING happened, we don't know what. Apparently, that is what you are missing.

[DCP]

Plus 1[smilie=s:



:goodpost::awesome:
Dude, the point is that you base your assertion on his being careless because he's a cop. That's what you said. I was a cop too, big deal. Since you don't have any clue HOW that weapon got fired you owe it to him to give him the same leeway you'd give anyone else. He may have done nothing careless, reckless or ignorant, or he may have been all 3 and drunk off his rocker to boot. But we have no information either way, do we? He's a gun owner exercising his right and SOMETHING happened, we don't know what. Apparently, that is what you are missing.

[Sasquatch-1]

Dude, the point is that you base your assertion on his being careless because he's a cop. That's what you said. I was a cop too, big deal. Since you don't have any clue HOW that weapon got fired you owe it to him to give him the same leeway you'd give anyone else. He may have done nothing careless, reckless or ignorant, or he may have been all 3 and drunk off his rocker to boot. But we have no information either way, do we? He's a gun owner exercising his right and SOMETHING happened, we don't know what. Apparently, that is what you are missing.

Make that +2[smilie=w:

[Hamish]

In the interest of "higher education" I have started a thread on the possibility of AD with a m1911:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=159199

[bgokk]

Now it's +3. From a retired cop.

[dmize]

This is my last post on this thread, Bret you have had "fun" with me before and this is the last.
FIRST off I will admit my mistake,I read the OP at work during lunch. Flash player is disabled there so I DID NOT initially see or read that he was off duty when this happened.
SECOND a cop mostly if not at least, if for no other reason than training SHOULD have been aware of his weapon.
THIRD I later made reference that regardless of his career choice that IT WAS HIS WEAPON!!!
I was a 3rd generation LEO that left the profession because of bullfeces like you are throwing around.
Did you put your Police ID in your wallet in the cardholder in front of your drivers license so when you got caught doing something stupid the officer saw it first?? I was told to do this by several "old school" cops. I hid mine so if I was ever checked no one would know I was a cop and therefore should have know better.
OH and btw I REALLY hope that your experience "back in the day" with lap dances was while you were off duty.

[TXGunNut]

Couple simple questions.
WHY was he participating at a "party" while carrying? Whay was for all intents and purposes getting a lap dance while he was carrying?
Sounds to me like a careless officer that didnt even begin to use an ounce of good judgement.


Read somewhere that he didn't know the woman, she apparently came with invited friends. A cop that lets someone he doesn't know get that close and apparently "manipulate" his weapon dozed off during the "situational awareness" and "violator contact" lectures. Sad story, plenty of blame to go around.

[GT27]

http://wwmt.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.mi/2b46ec56-www.wwmt.com.shtmlhttp://wwmt.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.mi/2b46ec56-www.wwmt.com.shtml
.40 S&W duty issue
Waist holster...how,must have been a tug, instead of a hug?

As for the way I carry my 1911,chamber empty,safety on, loaded mag in .I'm going to have the weapon out and pointed long before the perp gets close enough to do any harm,practice, and muscle memory are what I trust! GT27

[jcameron996]

There has been alot of discussion on this post about the guy being a police officer. It doesn't really matter whether he is a cop or a civilian, whether is was a 1911, a S&W or a glock. What matters is when you decide to carry a weapon, it is YOUR responsibilty to ensure that it is carried and handled in a safe and secure manner and that you act in a manner that will not allow it to endanger you or those around you. Whatever the circumstances were surrounding this situation it all boils down to the fact that this individual did not meet his responsibilities. As a side note I have always had a problem with the term accidental discharge (AD). Nearly all "accidental discharges" should be referred to as negligent discharges. Very rarely do firearms go off by themselves.

[Plinkster]

+1 on disliking the term "accidental discharge" I think most of us can agree any "accident" with a firearm can be traced to an individuals negligence at some point in the scenario. I'd like to think that all LEO's exercise perfect judgement in all things but the fact is they are people and the act of putting on a badge doesn't change that at all. The fact that they ARE people only guarantees that there will be good cops and bad cops and all in between. Like everyone else I'm very curious to see what comes out of this investigation. Facts don't all seem to be jiving on this one.

[Bret4207]

This is my last post on this thread, Bret you have had "fun" with me before and this is the last.
FIRST off I will admit my mistake,I read the OP at work during lunch. Flash player is disabled there so I DID NOT initially see or read that he was off duty when this happened.
SECOND a cop mostly if not at least, if for no other reason than training SHOULD have been aware of his weapon.
THIRD I later made reference that regardless of his career choice that IT WAS HIS WEAPON!!!
I was a 3rd generation LEO that left the profession because of ******** like you are throwing around.
Did you put your Police ID in your wallet in the cardholder in front of your drivers license so when you got caught doing something stupid the officer saw it first?? I was told to do this by several "old school" cops. I hid mine so if I was ever checked no one would know I was a cop and therefore should have know better.
OH and btw I REALLY hope that your experience "back in the day" with lap dances was while you were off duty.

First off, your language is a clear violation of the TOS here. Profanity isn't needed.

Secondly, nothing else you mention matters except that it was his gun that went of, however it happened. If he did something wrong, I hope he is appropriately punished. If he didn't, then I hope his name is cleared. No more, no less.

Sorry if you are offended, but he's a gun owner just like the rest of us and entitled to equal justice, even in the court of public opinion based solely on news stories with almost no information in them.

[popper]

Plinkster +1. Do you really expect news reporters to get anything right? How often do you hear in these reports, the relatives say ' yea, he was a dumb xx and deserved what happened (happens)? You usually hear 'he was such a sweet and gentile kid, I know he couldn't have done that'.

[ole 5 hole group]

I should just stay out of this discussion, as I don’t have anything worthwhile to add that could explain this tragic accident but I'll add my $0.02 worth.

Over the years/back in the day and up to now there seems to be two types of individuals who party while carrying. The 1st types are those that don’t want anyone to know they’re carrying and if a police officer, they also don’t want anyone to know their profession. The 2nd type is the opposite and they want people to know they are armed & dangerous for whatever reason.

I’ve seen some real fine hide go for the guy who broadcasts his profession or for the guy carrying that has a story to go along with it, so I guess one could blame those fine ladies.

I completely side with Ole Bret4207, as we don’t know what actually happened, so give this guy the benefit of the doubt that he did nothing wrong and because of the circumstances just prior to the AD, it’s an accident that shouldn’t have happened but did.

My memory fails me every now and then but I think I heard or saw a model 10 2” with a pound of rubber bands wrapped around the grips to slip down a guy’s pant leg and onto the dance floor, after which, he kicked the revolver to the side of the dance floor where his partner retrieved it, all without missing a dance step/move and no one noticed the revolver. Today, your partner would probably feel compelled to write an incident report on that.:D