Okay Gentlemen..cont. "M" die?

[moptop]

I was looking today at some old junk dies to see if I could come up with an .38 expander I could adapt for 9mm. I forgot that I had this Lyman die set that a friend gave me when he sold his Glock and bought a 1911. Is this the Lyman "M" die that some of you said that you use? If it is, how lucky can one get! I assume that the 38AP on the top of the expander adjuster means that it's a .358" spud?
I mic'd it and it's only .356 at the largest spot, the first ring from the bottom. Will that work or should it be bigger?

Thanks again for all the help.....Oh, and I didn't mean to start an epidemic with this thread!!!

[Horace]

38 auto pistol.

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[Horace]

"Multi-expand pistol die system"
On the lyman site.


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[Horace]

"Powder die system"...not pistol

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[462]

You want the 38P expander plug, less than $5 from Lyman. You use the existing die body and stem.

First step is .356" (case expansion) and the second is .360" (case mouth expansion). The first step will give .002" of tension on a .358" boolit,and the second step is what allows the boolit to sit squarely in the case mouth, rather than wobble about as in a flared/belled mouth.

[rockshooter]

methinks it is too long to work for 9mm
Loren

[geargnasher]

Might get that one to work just fine if you can adjust it right for 9mm. Pay particular attention to how much boolit is in the case, and only expand the case just a fuzz deeper than the boolit base will be resting when seated. Hopefully this will still allow part of the second step into the case to open the mouth enough to start a boolit without shaving lead on the case mouth.

Gear

[btroj]

May need a two step process. Use that expander to make room for the base of the bullet then use a different one to flare the case mouth so you don't shave lead when seating a bullet.

If this does work I would suggest contacting Buckshot on this site and worki with him to design exactly what you want then have him make you one. Noting better than a custom expander that works precisely for your needs.

[MBTcustom]

I can also make you a custom expander. Unscrew that baby and send it to me with the dimensions you would like the new one to be.
PM me

[btroj]

Sorry Tim, didn't even think of sending him our way.

It sure is nice to have guys who can make a custom bit of equipment to meet a specific need.

We are very fortunate that way.

[Longwood]

Little things do not bother this group of guys.

When there is a will,,, there is a way.

[MikeS]

To answer your question, yes, that is an M die. However the expander that's in it is the 38AP (for Auto Pistol) which isn't large enough for what you need. What you need is the 38P expander, however there might be a small problem. The 38P expander is longer than the 38AP as it's designed for the 38 Special & 357 Mag cases, both of which are longer than either the 9mm or 380ACP cases, so it might expand too deeply, or in the case of the 380 (I don't recall if you're loading that or not) it might bottom out on the base before it's had a chance to expand the neck. Getting the 38P expander from Lyman is fairly cheap, so before you start getting custom expanders made I would suggest getting one, and trying it. If it doesn't work out, then you can get a custom one made.

Another thing, I see another poster mentioned the Lyman Multi-expand powder die system, that's what I use, basically it's an M die that uses hollow expanders rather than the solid ones on M dies, it still has the dual diameter feature that makes the M die so popular, and on top it's threaded with a 7/8-14 thread so you can screw on any powder measure that uses those threads. It comes with expanders for 32 thru 45 in all the common pistol calibers both P and AP versions. This die 'system' is only slightly more expensive than a single M die, so could pay for itself real quick if you needed to buy additional M dies for other calibers.

[L1A1Rocker]

To answer your question, yes, that is an M die. However the expander that's in it is the 38AP (for Auto Pistol) which isn't large enough for what you need. What you need is the 38P expander, however there might be a small problem. The 38P expander is longer than the 38AP as it's designed for the 38 Special & 357 Mag cases, both of which are longer than either the 9mm or 380ACP cases, so it might expand too deeply, or in the case of the 380 (I don't recall if you're loading that or not) it might bottom out on the base before it's had a chance to expand the neck. Getting the 38P expander from Lyman is fairly cheap, so before you start getting custom expanders made I would suggest getting one, and trying it. If it doesn't work out, then you can get a custom one made.

Another thing, I see another poster mentioned the Lyman Multi-expand powder die system, that's what I use, basically it's an M die that uses hollow expanders rather than the solid ones on M dies, it still has the dual diameter feature that makes the M die so popular, and on top it's threaded with a 7/8-14 thread so you can screw on any powder measure that uses those threads. It comes with expanders for 32 thru 45 in all the common pistol calibers both P and AP versions. This die 'system' is only slightly more expensive than a single M die, so could pay for itself real quick if you needed to buy additional M dies for other calibers.

That "system" sounds cool. Is there an expander that is the right diameter and length for the 9mm?

[fecmech]

The 38AP is the expander for the 9MM. Too my knowledge Lyman makes 3 M expanders for .35 cal pistols. The .38P (38/.357), 38AP( 9MM,38super,.380) and the 38map for the Makarov. L to R P,MAP, AP

[moptop]

To answer your question, yes, that is an M die.


The 38AP is the expander for the 9MM. Too my knowledge Lyman makes 3 M expanders for .35 cal pistols. The .38P (38/.357), 38AP( 9MM,38super,.380) and the 38map for the Makarov. L to R P,MAP, AP

Mike, Thanks for the explaination on the "M" die. Very, very, helpful! I agree with you on purchasing a Lyman 38P expander first and trying it. Even if it's too long and doesn't hit the second step, as another poster said, I can always use my regular bellmouth die afterwards. Just as long as it expands the case to proper depth I will be happy. If I'm in Mexico tomorrow I plan on stopping by Graf's and seeing if they have either a spud/plug or a die in stock. I live in Columbia, only 35 miles from them.

Goodsteel, Thanks for the offer to make an custom expander. I really appreciate that. This is one of the few times I wish I had a small lathe but even at this point I can't justify buying one. It's the " I probibly wouldn't use it as much as I think I would" syndrome.

Fecmech, thanks very much for the pictures, that also explained a lot.
I like pictures. Now that you've shown me the difference I know what to look for.

All in all this seems like an easy and inexpensive fix to a very frustrating problem. I'll try this with my current LEE 124grn LRN tumble lube boolit first. If I still have problems then I'll try a different style boolit.

[MBTcustom]

I probibly wouldn't use it as much as I think I would
Then again, you might start using it and it turns into an obsession the likes of which mere mortals cannot fathom! Your probably smart I suppose. I walked into my first machine shop when I was sixteen, and it was like discovering girls all over again. I was hooked like a billybass on a baitmans big bass gill slayer.
Now I wouldn't be able to pay my mortgage if I didn't go to my "job" and play with machinery all day.
Yeah, I got it bad.
Beware, there is no cure for the intoxicating power of being able to make your own stuff!

[462]

Lyman the only source for their M-die expander plugs.

[fecmech]

CH makes a similar die for their Auto champ press that the powder drops through and would work in a standard press as it's body is 7/8x14. The one on the left is .38/357, the other is 9MM and the die body.

[moptop]

Beware, there is no cure for the intoxicating power of being able to make your own stuff!

Goodsteel, I know EXACTLY what you mean. I'm an home appliance tech by day and have and endless supply to junk parts much to the dislike of my wife. I've always been one to try to build it first. I also play in a band and built much of the PA and lighting gear that we use. I'm with ya brother!

I was able to buy a 38P "M" die at Graf's today so I think I'm set. I just got home a little too late to think about messing with it this evening. Day jobs S**K sometimes.

fecmech, The CH 444 Pistol Champ is my main machine. I like that press a lot. I'd like to fine another one or at least a single stage "H" press.

I'll let you all know when I try that "m" die and fire off some rounds I've used them on.

Thanks again all for the guidance on this.

[moptop]

Well I had the cahnce to load up some TL124gr LRN boolits this morning using the 38P "M" die. Things seemed to go okay. I did notice that if I screwed the expander too far down it would bulge the center of the case. I'm assuming that was bottoming out in the shell. I loaded up a few dummy rounds and then pulled the boolits on them and they all measured .357"......Soooo maybe there's hope!

I'll being trying these out late this afternoon, wish me luck!

[geargnasher]

Good luck!

Gear

[Doc Highwall]

moptop, that bulging of the center of the case is from the sizing dies sizing the case down too far.

[moptop]

Well I had the chance to try out the loads I made up using the Lyman 38P "M" die on the 9mm cases. I would call it a success! I fired 100 rounds out of my BHP and there was very little leading, just a little smearing. At least this time I didn't have hanging tinsle strings. It was a BIG improvement. The HS-6 performed beautifully as I knew it would and the Lee TL124RN boolit sized at .358" seemed to improve in accuracy.
I'm going to try a second tumble in ALOX to see if that will help in eliminating it or at least reducing it a little more. Even if it doesn't it's still something I can live with.

Thank you to all who contributed the wonderful info to help me resolve this problem. It was very kind of you all to share your experience and knowledge with me.

Dominick

[44man]

The "M" die is made for soft boolits to start easy. Next is a step that will size a soft boolit anyway. It is a solution to a problem that does not exist with a boolit that resists sizing when seating.
It is a 100% useless hunk of steel.

[Char-Gar]

The issue of tension on a cast bullet in handgun ammo is not one that gives an easy nor simple answer.

1. How hard is hard?
2. How soft is too soft?
3. Do powders vary in their need for the amount of bullet pull for good combustion?
4. Do all calibers require the same tension?
5. Do sizing dies vary in how much size the body of the case below where the case expander travels?
6. What is the length of the bullet?

More here than a simple answer will cover. Like most things in cast bullet shooting, the answer is "it depends". I for one don't believe the M die is useless, nor do I believe that harder is always better. But the .356 - .360 expander is not the solution to all problems. I have several Lyman expander dies for the 38 Special/357 Magnum for use in the tong tool or Tru-Line Jr Press. They run .358 - .361 and .357 - .361 respectively. I also have a special RCBS long wadcutter expender that measure .3585. They all have their uses.

I have pretty much given up carbide dies for most pistol calibers due to their excessive sizing of the case.

[44man]

Only hard or tough enough to keep brass from sizing the boolit. The boolit when seated must open the brass. You do not want to make the hole in the brass so large tension is gone.
The "M" die fails because it only opens the very end of the brass. Soft still gets sized at the lower depth.
Make a boolit hard enough and you do not need an easy start.

[Char-Gar]

how hard is hard enough?

[geargnasher]

The "M" die is made for soft boolits to start easy. Next is a step that will size a soft boolit anyway. It is a solution to a problem that does not exist with a boolit that resists sizing when seating.
It is a 100% useless hunk of steel.

As usual you hit it the proverbial nail squarely.

The second step is still too small in every example of "m" die I've seen, so it DOES size the boolit anyway, and the first step only serves to blow any semblence of case tension as far down as you adjust it to expand, which is often 1/4 to 1/3 of the part holding the boolit.

There are two options:

One, use a boolit hard enough to resist being sized by the case, this will vary, for example a .40 S&W case will require at least 18 bhn with typical dies, more likely 20-22 bhn to prevent it entirely. .45 ACP and .38 Special will often be fine with 12 BHN wheel weights and factory dies.

Two, use an expander that brings the entire depth of the case that will touch the boolit when seated up to about .0015-.0020" smaller than the boolit size, as most boolits from about 9 bhn up can withstand this. This is a MUST when using soft boolits in calibers designed for high pressure like the small autos due to the hard, thick, tough brass. The expander should be straight, large enough to accomodate brass springback (again, depends on the particular cartridge how big it needs to be), long enough to expand the case just a fuzz deeper than the boolit will be seated, and it should have a bellmouth shank for starting the boolit. In use, the bellmouth should be opened no further than the crimp die can reverse, just barely larger than the boolit base or GC.

How you do it is up to you, but if you try to go outside of either of the above you will have problems.

Gear

[popper]

.40 S&W case will require at least 18 bhn with typical dies, more likely 20-22 bhn to prevent it entirely. I'm using 99/1 in 40 with unsized, belled cases. Drop @ .403 and get case sized to .4015-.402. First saw some 'spiders' with no other leading. Further investigation showed the CB was getting 'roll' sized, on the base band with the spider being pushed into the lube groove. Friction actually rolled up a layer of lead,(folded over itself) not shoving it or shearing it. Cleaning the spiders from the groove before lubing eliminated spiders in the barrel. Sizing with soft is more difficult. I have no problems with the M or RCBS spuds with harder alloy. The M could have softer transition between the steps.