Savage Headspace How To ?

[mrbill2]

I know how to figure out the headspace when chambering for a action with a shoulder that the barrel butts against. The distance between there and the distance to the bolt face is the headspace measurment. Now with the Savage action with no shoulder for the barrel to be screw against, where do I get the measurement I need for headspace. Looking to chamber for 7.62x 39.

[scb]

I've never chambered a Savage BA rifle. Lots of Mauser's, Springfield's, Remington's, Winchesters, and others with shoulders as well as a bunch of assorted singleshots. Someone may have a better idea than mine but this is what I'd do.
I would measure from the back of the barrel to the end of the headspace gage. I would make that measurement equal to the deepest recess in the bolt face plus .010" to .015" (for clearance). The clearance is so when you screw the barrel into the receiver the barrel is bottoming out on the headspace gage instead of the bolt. Mind you I've never chambered one but that's the way I'd do it. BTW there's nothing saying you can't turn the barrel just like any other rifle (with a shoulder) and skip the barrel nut. The barrel nut is simply a way to reduce the precision required to manufacture these rifles.

[Pat I.]

That's a good question and I never really thought about it. When I've fit barrels to my own Savage actions I just fit them conventionally using a shoulder and a good recoil lug. With the barrel nut it seems that if you measured from the front of the bolt to the bolt face and added .005 for clearance between the front of the bolt and the back of the barrel that would work wouldn't it. After running your reamer in to get that measurement using a go gauge run the barrel in with the go gauge in it until it contacts the bolt face and tighten up the nut.

[HollowPoint]

Go to the savage shooters forum and do a quick search. They have a dedicated thread that explains how to headspace your savage for virtually any type of cartridge.

It's incredibly easy. I'd tell you how I do it but, I know that I'd then have to face alot of unwanted opinion and unmerited safety concerns.

I can tell you that the savage factory does it their way and DIY'ers do it two or three different ways.
It's best to do it according to factory spec the first time around. Once you get your confidence up you'll realize that there's more than one way to skin that cat.

Also; check out the YouTube website. There are plenty of videos that show and explain how to do it. It's always good to have a visual reference along with the explanations.

HollowPoint

[Nobade]

Normally leaving .135" of the GO gauge sticking out the back of the barrel lets the case hit the bolt face before the nose of the bolt hits the barrel. Check this with your own bolt though, just to make sure.

Then just screw the barrel on with the same GO gauge in the chamber and the bolt closed until it stops. Back off maybe 1/8 to 1/10 turn to give a little clearance and snug the nut down. Check to make sure the bolt closes without resistance on the gauge, and there is just barely perceptible slop. You're there!

This assumes you have removed the extractor and ejector from your bolt first. I also like to remove the firing pin and parts, just leave the cross pin in place to hold the bolt together. That way nothing interferes with the feel you are looking for.

Of course as Pat I. says, the best way is to leave out the nut and barrel it up like a Remington. But if you have a drop-in barrel or a factory rechamber you don't have the option.

[mrbill2]

Thank You All. The depth of the boltface is what I will use. I ckeck the boltface on my 308 and it is .140. Close to .135 that Nobade said to use. The new boldhead for the 6.72x39 measures .109. I'll add .005 to that for clearance. That should work. Next I need to buy some gages for the 7.62x39. Haven't found any so far.Thank you all again for the help.

[Pat I.]

Shouldn't have too much trouble finding a place to buy the headspace gauges but unless you plan on chambering a bunch of rifles in 7.62x39 you might be better trying to borrow or rent them, or at least a go gauge.

[Nobade]

Thank You All. The depth of the boltface is what I will use. I ckeck the boltface on my 308 and it is .140. Close to .135 that Nobade said to use. The new boldhead for the 6.72x39 measures .109. I'll add .005 to that for clearance. That should work. Next I need to buy some gages for the 7.62x39. Haven't found any so far.Thank you all again for the help.

I'd give it at least .010" clearance between the bolt nose and the back of the barrel. A little more room won't hurt but if the bolt hits the barrel it will.

[Mooseman]

The ONLY way to do it properly is with a hardened headspace gauge set that is SAAMI specs. The Savage is the easiest because of it being adjustable with a lock nut. In some cases, headspace may tighten up when you tighten the nut and you must loosen it and back the barrel out slightly before re- tightening the nut.
Too much headspace is not only hard on Brass but can cause primers to back out or misfires. Too little headspace causes certain ammo to be hard to chamber and can raise pressures in the chamber.
Please do it the proper safe way or have a Qualified gunsmith do the job, as it only takes a few minutes with the right tools.
I set headspace clearance to normally no more than .003 clearance on a go gauge on a hunting rifle and .000 to .001 on a match type rifle.

Rich

[MBTcustom]

Moose is right. There is only one proper way to headspace a high-power rifle. Rent the stupid headspace gauges for Pete's sake! They are only five bucks. Why oh why does no one ever recommend this? Don't use tape. Don't use "feel". Don't fool yourself about the fact that you are dealing with things that can kill you.
Remove the extractor from the bolt.
Measure the depth of your bolt face with a depth micrometer.
Slip the Go gauge into the new barrel chamber and measure how much the gauge protrudes with a depth micrometer. (I prefer to use a 1" diameter piece of steel with a 3/4" hole borred through it, 1" tall that has been precision ground top and bottom, perfectly parallel, as this gives me a better feel for the micrometer being square with the barrel.)
The gauge protrusion should be .005 more than the depth of the bolt-face but no less than .002 greater and no more than .008 greater.
If it is more than .008, you can rent the chamber reamer and T-handle to decrease this measurement. If it is less than .002 greater than the bolt measurement, I suppose you could carefully draw-file a couple of thousandths off the barrel to increase this value, but I just throw it in the lathe and take a skim pass.
Once you are satisfied that this is right, screw the barrel onto the action with the go-gauge still in place, until you get light contact with the bolt.
Tighten up the lock nut just snug.
Remove the go-gauge and close the bolt without it. You should feel no resistance here. If you do, then it means that you messed up on the first steps and the bolt is bottoming out on the barrel and that is giving you a false positive. In the unlikely event that this happens, redo the first steps until it is right. If you feel no resistance on an empty chamber, stick the go gauge back in and close the bolt.
Go ahead and scronk down the locknut.
work the bolt on the go-gauge and satisfy yourself that you feel no pressure when closing the bolt on it.
Finally, insert the not-go gauge and satisfy yourself that you have a dead stop before the lugs engage the action.
This is how I was taught to approach this simple project.
But make no mistake, you cannot do a job like this without those cheap gauges and at least a good quality set of dial calipers to make sure the yay-who that made the barrel didn't go .005 to far or too short when chambering your barrel blank.

[Nobade]

Sorry, gauge protrusion from the chamber of a Savage barrel is not important unless it is short enough to make the bolt nose hit the barrel before it hits the go gauge, or long enough to expose the web of the case. (The gauges will normally show where this is) You have a huge amount of leeway there on how deep the chamber can be. Just measure a bunch of factory Savage barrels - they will vary from .135" to .155" stickout. Since the barrel is screwed down until it touches the GO gauge, and locked by the nut, it doesn't matter one bit.

One word of caution though - Ackley cartridges. Since a factory case will crush quite a bit on a properly headspaced Ackley chamber on the first firing, the gauge stickout must be equal to the amount of crush plus the clearance you choose to give the bolt nose. Failing to do this will allow the bolt to hit the back of the barrel and give you false readings.

[MBTcustom]

Sorry, gauge protrusion from the chamber of a Savage barrel is not important unless it is short enough to make the bolt nose hit the barrel before it hits the go gauge, or long enough to expose the web of the case.
I've got a buddy who has a Savage rebarrel that blows the side of the cases out. I don't take chances, especially with a system that is so easy to do it right, and yet so easy to do it wrong. Its true that there is some margin for error, but that is not something that can be measured with any confidence, so why not make sure you do it right? If the bolt hits the back of the barrel, that can cause serious problems, but if you are getting chunks of brass blowing out from around the bolt, that can cause you some blindness issues, so why not take the time to make it tight and accurate?
So, someone reads this thread and has a short chambered barrel blank. They read that "gauge protrusion from the chamber of a Savage barrel is not important" and screw that baby in and load up their favorite moose slayer loads and head off to the range to burn some holes in the paper. Not good advice, especially on a reloading forum. I figure its better to err on the side of safety IMHO. I would normally feel pretty safe saying "screw it in and lock it down" except I have seen one example where that didn't work out so hot and I have no experience with finding out what you can get away with in this particular area. I just gave my opinion based on how I do it, but I have a whole machineshop at my back so that has a tenancy to taint my opinions. Maybe I'm overly cautious.
Anyway, take it for what its worth.

[Mooseman]

Goodsteel,
Good reminder About a short chambered barrel...The thought didnt cross my mind that some Bozo would try to headspace a short chambered barrel, But I should know better after some of the gunsmithing stuff I have read on forums.

My recommendation as to how to do the job right is only for a pre-chambered Savage barrel. The Chamber must be deep enough for the cartridge to be slightly past the rear web of the brass where it is strong enough to not blow out when fired.and not so deep that the bolt hits the barrel when in battery.

[MBTcustom]

My recommendation as to how to do the job right is only for a pre-chambered Savage barrel. The Chamber must be deep enough for the cartridge to be slightly past the rear web of the brass where it is strong enough to not blow out when fired.and not so deep that the bolt hits the barrel when in battery.
Absolutely sound advice! I've got no problem with that...if indeed the OP is dealing with a savage original barrel, and he did not say that was the case, so we must not assume, and give advice that covers all the bases. The advice you gave was sound,but I thought it was worth throwing out an opinion that deals with another possible scenario, especially because I know for a fact this mistake has been made at least once.
You have much more experience than me though, so if I'm grabbing at straws, just tell me and I'll shut up, but until somebody educates me otherwise, I stand by what I said.
:drinks:

[Pat I.]

I wish people would read a whole thread before adding things. Bills not talking about screwing in a pre-fit or short chambered barrel he's talking about chambering and fitting a blank. He said he was going to order a set of gauges once he found them and I recommended renting as an option so that's covered. He obviously knows what he's taking about or he wouldn't have asked the question or understood the answers. The first four replies he was given answered his question. I don't think you're going to blow yourself up if you use a layer or two of scotch tape on the back of a go gauge to use as a no go gauge. To be honest I even used a formed case once for a wildcat I wanted to try out because no gauges were available and am still here to talk about it.

Goodsteel, have you pulled the barrel off of your buddies Savage and found out why it's blowing the side of the cases out? Hopefully when you said sides of the cases (as in plural) you were talking about one before either you or someone else looked at it..

[MBTcustom]

As a matter of fact I just sent him a message and asked if he would like me to fix that one. He said he would be glad to have me look at it, but I think I know what I'm going to find. He discovered the problem whe nfiring the rifle a while back. A few months ago he asked my opinion about why it would do that, I told him just what I told you. I said I would pull the barrel and check it out sometime. To tell you the truth, I forgot about it until this thread jogged my memory. I apologize for coming accross strong, but there is a right way to do things like this and they should be adheared to. Especialy because the tools needed to do the job right are readily available and pretty cheap.
I don't want somebody to get hurt by taking partial advice and putting yet another unsafe weapon out there. You see enough of them, and it makes you a little gun shy "pun intended".
I confess, I went back over the thread and found that I missed post #6 when reading through the first time.
I apologize.
Its still something that was worth bringing up, seeing as how mrbill2 has not measured the chamber depth on the barrel blank yet and it could very well be short chambered.
Perhaps I can redeem myself by recommending this place to get your gauges and reamer if you need them:
http://www.reamerrentals.com/searchresults.asp?cat=386
The gauges only cost $5 to rent so why do the scotch tape thing? Sorry, pet peav.
Its only $26 to rent the reamer if you need to adjust the chamber depth.

[Mooseman]

Well if you are chambering a blank barrel, it is very simple to do in a lathe by running the reamer in and out and checking with a headspace gauge to allow ~.010 clearance between the bolt (used by hand out of the gun), and the barrel face before ever installing it in the receiver. Then set up the barrel in the gun with the bolt locked in place and you know you have a minimum .010 clearance when headspaced properly.

[MBTcustom]

Bills not talking about screwing in a pre-fit or short chambered barrel he's talking about chambering and fitting a blank.
Most barrel blanks are either short chambered or not chambered at all.

I know how to figure out the headspace when chambering for a action with a shoulder that the barrel butts against. The distance between there and the distance to the bolt face is the headspace measurment.
This is a new method in my book. It depends on you assuming that whoever made the barrel chambered to the correct depth. The bolt to barrel fit and the headspace are two completely different functions that only match up on a barrel that was made for a specific action, most barrel blanks are multi-purpose.
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm raining on your parade, I'm not trying to, and I'm not telling you not to do this project. I'm just telling you what the critical dimensions are and how to measure them, and that they should not be ignored.
All the original posts assumed that Bill was using a factory replacement barrel. I know that there are other options available. I gave advice that covers this situation, and it sounds like Bill is indeed using a barrel blank.

[Pat I.]

Most barrel blanks are either short chambered or not chambered at all.


A short chambered barrel is threaded crowned and short chambered... hence the name. A barrel blank is just that, a barrel with nothing done to it except contouring if you want something other than straight.


All the original posts assumed that Bill was using a factory replacement barrel. I know that there are other options available. I gave advice that covers this situation, and it sounds like Bill is indeed using a barrel blank[/B.

[B]I'm getting a little confused here and none of the original posts assumed that Bill was using a factory replacement barrel. I'm pretty sure the original question was answered to the op's satisfaction a while ago.

[mrbill2]

Well, I am late getting back to my orignal post. I see there has been many ports since my last look. First off the barrel I was talking about using was a blank barrel. One that has not been threaded or chambered for any action. Now after I get the barrel threaded in the lathe I,m ready to cut the chamber. My question was how deep I need to make the chamber or how much does the headspace gage needs to extend past the end of the barrel. I knew how the find this measurment when using a action with a shoulder that the barrel butt ups against, but not how to find that measurment when barreling a Savage action. That question has been answered. Measure the depth of the boltface and add .010 to .015 to make sure the bolt does not touch the end of the barrel, that's my understanding. How to install the finished barrel to the action I was not the question. That I already know how to do. I had no intension of using a fired case to set the headspace. I have the gage I used to when I chambered the barrel. Hope this clears thing up.

OP:
I know how to figure out the headspace when chambering for a action with a shoulder that the barrel butts against. The distance between there and the distance to the bolt face is the headspace measurment. Now with the Savage action with no shoulder for the barrel to be screw against, where do I get the measurement I need for headspace. Looking to chamber for 7.62x 39.

[Nobade]

Well I'm glad that's all settled!

Now, Mr. Bill, what are you going to do about getting a bolt face to fit that cartridge?

(hehehe... this should be fun too!)

[bearcove]

:popcorn:

[mrbill2]

Ok Listen Up I don't have time to do this all over again !! Looke here: http://www.gunshack.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=25_31&product_id=252
Now who would have thought. hehehehe
Even a squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.

[Nobade]

Hey, that's way too easy! Back in the day we used to have to do that the hard way.

I didn't know they made them in that size now, thanks for sharing!

[mrbill2]

You need to get out more often LOL. Savage now sells a model chambered for that cartridge. http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/finder/
Thank again for the help with the OP.

[Nobade]

You're right, I don't pay much attention to what's currently being made until somebody brings it into the shop for me to fix. Sounds like a good move on Savage's part, 7.62X39 is one of the few rifle calibers folks seem to be able to afford to buy factory ammo for anymore.