10.5 x 47r

[sharps4590]

The Cape gun arrived Thursday evening and I was a little disappointed that it was not chambered in 9.3 X 72R. But, that just opened up an entirely new area of study! Slugged the bore, .413-.415, made a chamber cast and after measureing all the pertinent points and comparing them to my one source I determined the gun was chambered to the 10.5 X 47 R. Think of a shortened 43 Mauser, which also served as the parent case. Barnes has it listed as firing a 260-300 gr. bullet but lists no velocity. I am purely guessing but I expect around 1100 fps. Yesterday afternoon was spent figuring out how to form cases and when I got that down, with some very good advice from some German firearm guru's who have become friends, I fireformed them to the gun. Kind of a cute little thing that holds 65 grs. of Ffg Scheutzen when level full. From the chamber cast it has a fairly long lead so the bullet can be seated out and I'm hoping to get a load of 60 grs. Ffg for hunting. Now the time for waiting has arrived as I have neither mold nor sizing die for anything close to .413-.415. That's ok, however, as now I can go to work on the 16 bore side.....oh, speaking of which. I have read, for years and years, about straight rifling but had never seen it in a smoothbore. When I first got the Cape gun and was looking the bores over I saw what is similar to shallow Henry style rifling in the 16 bore side. There are 6, main straight henry style riflings and between each of them are 6 lesser straight riflings. It almost reminds one of Marlin's Micro-Groove rifling, except that it's straight. I just grinned!!! Now here's another thing I haven't worked with!!! It seems obvious to me that the 16 bore barrel was more intended for round ball than shot. But, the rifling being straight, it should work equally well with 1 - 1 1/8 oz of shot. With the brass ready and waiting on custom molds and dies I can go to work on the 16 bore.....as soon as I get the required brass cases and a 16 bore round ball mold. This has been more fun than I've had with a firearm in a long time!!!!

[Tatume]

Hi Sharps,

Very nice; I'd like to see a photo.

Straight rifling is interesting too, as to my knowledge none of the original rational has been preserved. Some speculate that it was intended to hold a patched round ball tightly in the chamber over a length of time, during which the rifle barrel might be fired on more than one occasion. I've read several other guesses too. Ross Seyfried worked with such a gun and wrote about his experience, but I can't recall the citation.

Have fun; I'll look forward to hearing more.

Take care, Tom

[sharps4590]

Seyfried has indeed worked with several as have other authors. Sheman Bell did I believe. Where I've read the articles is in Double Gun Journal. I suppose those articles are what inspired me to try one. Especially when I learned that the smoothbore side was more often than not regulated to the sights along with the rifle barrel. Kinda like a double rifle utilizing 2 different chamberings.....which it what it really is, I guess.

Here are some formed cases. I'll just show two so as not to burn up a lot of space. The first is of the case ready to be fireformed. 23 grs. of Unique under about a 2 inch square of newsprint and plugged with Irish Spring soap. The second is of the fireformed case and the two from last night. Kind of a cute little thing!!

http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq41/sharps4070/P1010009.jpg

http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq41/sharps4070/P1010010.jpg

[Wayne Smith]

If your last case is a fireformed case it is almost identical to mine. My dies from CH4D also size the neck way down so I use them as neck only dies and this works well. Increases my powder capacity, too. I'm currently suffering some gout or pseudogout pain or I would go upstairs and take a couple of pics of mine.

I have found the the blue C-shaped 45-70 20 round plastic cartridge boxes work well to keep the loaded cartridges. I designed a 265gr mold on Dan's Mountain Mold site for mine.

I assume your 16ga is 2.5" like mine since you are also using brass shells. Be aware that you need to use 14 ga wads with the brass shotshells. I use Goex light loads in mine since it is a Damascus steel barrel.

Does yours have proof marks?

[sharps4590]

Wayne, yes, that is the fireformed case. Evidently there are more of these floating around than I thought. I was thinking a bullet of around 275 grains would be good. From what I know of the original loadings, very little, it was apparently loaded with bullets from 260-300 grs. How does yours shoot and have you chronoed any loads? Mine holds 65 grs. of Ffg when filled level full. I'm hoping to be able to get a 60 gr. load.....but maybe not.

Yes, my chamber for the 16 bore is 2 1/2. I may try some plastic shells cut back to 2 1/2 if I learn how to put a roll crimp on them. They do fit the chamber. Ultimately I intend to use brass hulls, just cuz they're right....lol! My main focus at first will be for round ball with shot loads coming later. Have you worked up any round ball loads for yours?

I have a question, does your 16 bore barrel have straight rifling in it? Mine does, first I've ever seen. It has 6 what I will call main riflings equally spaced then between each main rifling there is 6 more "lesser" riflings, as in not as tall. All have a Henryish look to them.

Mine has no proof marks.

I've never suffered from gout but my feet hurt bad enough sometimes that I feel for you, if that's where your gout is. Hope it passes soon. It really sucks when your feet hurt too bad to walk.

[mdevlin53]

I have one of these odd caliber rifles it looks a bit like yous. My bore is .430. I ended up calling it a 44-57 because that is the bullet and the case capacity with 2F Goex. I have to look at starting with 43 mauser cases as i am having a problem with headspace with the fire formed 45-70 cases. I think bringing these old guns back to the range is just one of the best hobbies one can have. The case on the left is ready to fire , left is parent 45-70 case. target is at 50 yards first time out.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_237434ff853518e696.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5819)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_237434ff85396adb34.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5820)

[sharps4590]

md, I just looked at some 45-70 brass to buy for forming to the 10.5 X 47R. I happened to have one of my formed cases with me and the gun shop had a mic. I compared them and there was .014 difference at the head. I am told that falls within specs but I wasn't comfortable with that much difference. Having yet to fire this old Cape gun I obviously don't have any real experience, but that just seemed like too much to me. The 43 Mauser cases I have worked really well and I don't anticipate any problems from them....time will tell, eh?

If I am seeing the picture correctly, your case is nearly the same length as the 45-70? Mine is .34 shorter than the 45-70. And yes, working with these old firearms and cartridges is just about the most fun I have with guns. I get a real kick out of all the questions: "Who makes that?", "It's a what?" "That thing has 3 barrels?" "Man, that's a cool old double barrel shotgun", "it isn't a shotgun, it's a Cape gun", "a what?", "Well I never saw, (or heard of), such a thing".

[Wayne Smith]

My load is a case full of 777 and I'm getting just over 1400fps out of it. Reasonable good accuracy at 50yds, don't really have the eyes to shoot it at 100. The young guys at the range who have shot it at 100 are getting about 3"-4" groups. I think of it as a long barreled 44Mag equivalent.

My shotgun is a standard smooth bore Damascus barrel. It does show some areas of discoloration, so I'm not willing to push it at all.

The gout is in the base of my right big toe. Whole foot is swollen so I can't get a shoe on, but I usually wear sandals anyway. Pretty much touching it hurts.

If yours is made in Germany with no proof marks it is prior to April 1, 1892 when the proof law came into effect. Is yours fluid steel or Damascus? My rifle barrel says it's fluid steel, the shotgun is Damascus.

MDevlin, yours sounds like it may be chambered for the 43Mauser full length. Have you done a chamber cast?

[sharps4590]

Both my barrels are fluid steel and we have dated it from 1874 to 1882....best guess.

The 43 Mauser is a good cartridge.....once you figure out the bore size. I have a double rifle in that caliber and I just love it.

[Wayne Smith]

Care to tell me how you got that specific in dates? I have a last possible date for mine, I have no idea how early Krupp started sending fluid steel barrels to gunsmiths. That would be the earliest possible date.

[Chicken Thief]

Not sure about the Germans but Sweden got straight rifling in 1880.

The Swedish government did not like that average Swedes hunted moose with a slug load in a shotgun. So they made a law stating that moose must be hunted with a rifled firearm, but that ment that farmers needed a double gun so they could shoot fowl aswell. So straight rifling conformed with the law regarding slugs and worked for shot in a single barrel gun.

[sharps4590]

I guess they're fluid steel, they certainly aren't damascus, I wish they were! They about have to be steel.

Chicken Thief, I have almost always read that rifling was first found to be used in the Germany/Austria/Switzerland area in the 1500's and that it was initially straight rifling. What has been largely written, and I guess accepted, was that the straight rifling was supposed to give the fouling a place to go. Perhaps that isn't so and I certainly can't prove it one way or the other. But, it's been written so many times in magazines and books that it's the only evidence I have.

[Chicken Thief]

Sharps4590 that is true for a frontstuffer!
In a rearloader the next shot will take care of the fouling and push it out the front.

But as i said i know for a fact that the Swedish government made it law for single projectile shooters to have rifling if they were going to be used on moose.

Heres one with a smoothbore and a straight rifling barrel. 2 barrels for fowl and posibbility for a moose shot as well.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=124567&an=0&page=4#Post124567

Heres a Husqvarna list of firearms with several straight rifled guns:
http://www.skydevaaben.com/allhvamodels/info.xml

And a pic:
http://merzantique.com/item/husqvarna-rolling-block-sporting-rifle-in-.68-caliber-with-straight-rifling

[Wayne Smith]

When I got mine I was in e-mail communication with a gunsmith in Germany. He told me that he had recently received a 20ga double gun to clean up. It was recently proofed 3" Nitro- the strongest proof then available for the 20ga. It wasn't until he cleaned it up that anybody realized that the barrels were Damascus! Unless yours is rather pristine you may not be able to tell the difference. From inside there is no difference.

[mdevlin53]

Wayne
I thought the case looked like a 43 mauser but the groove dimention is .430 and the 43 mauser is somewhat bigger at about .446 or so . I use a 43 mauser die to get it close and a home made die to reduce it to the point where i can keep the bullet in the case so it doesm't fall out.

[sharps4590]

mdev, 43 Mausers are all over the place. From your .430 to as high as .450. J. C. Munnel did a piece on the 43 Mauser....about a year ago I think....in the Double Gun Journal on the cartridge and he had the same experience. So it could be a 43 "of a different bore". They were pretty spread out. My double rifle in 43 Mauser is pretty close to .446. I would have to slug the bore again to be exact because I've forgotten but I do know it's close. Lucky me for all the years ago I got it and worked up a load.

Hopefully Wayne can help me out here. The German cartridges weren't standardized until.....1910? 1912? You'll see the same thing in the 9.3 X 72R and probably a lot of the other "common" German cartridges.

Chicken Thief....you and I must be shooting different black powder cartridge firearms or a different powder....or something. My breechloaders sure foul out if they aren't blow tubed or wiped.

[Chicken Thief]

Chicken Thief....you and I must be shooting different black powder cartridge firearms or a different powder....or something. My breechloaders sure foul out if they aren't blow tubed or wiped.

In my 12 gauge i have fired 40+ shots without severe fouling, but then again i use a ½" feltwad soaked in boolitlube in the wad coloumn. That might have to do with reducing fouling.
I use Swiss #4.

[sharps4590]

Ahhhhhh...ok, I understand completely now. You were talking about smoothbores and I was thinking rifles. Kinda makes a difference....lol!!!

[Wayne Smith]

Can't help you with the standardization date for Germany, but remember the country pulled together relatively late. 1892 is a late date for a proof law in Europe, and cities had them well before that. Standardization would probably have started with the military and gradually moved to the civilian market. I would not be surprised if it didn't hit the civilian market until ammo makers pushed for it.