Trying to copy BB "Hard cast wadcutters"

[John in WI]

I have been casting my .38 wadcutters mostly from range scrap (just because I have some) with a bit of solder added to it.

I was thinking of buying some BB hardcast wad cutters to test them out for use in a .38 special (SD load).

The theory is, the wadcutters won't deform or change direction, even if they hit something hard like bone. I'm hoping to work out a round for deep penetration with moderate .38spl speeds (some where in the 850FPS range). Something that could easily defeat "soft armor" (doors, heavy clothes...) and still have the juice to do some damage.

One of the members here agreed to sell me some linotype, and I have a good stash of clip on WW.

How "hard" do you suppose something like that would need to be? I was thinking mixing up WW : Lino something like 80 : 20, as that should give me a hint of arsenic (from the WW), and a good dose of Antimony from the WW and lino, and plenty of tin from the lino for good mold fillout.

Any thoughts on it?

[guidogoose]

A member here came up an Excel calculator to determine lead alloy hardness

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=105952

I saw a video on youtube by I believe, ammosmith, where he cast a bullet with a soft lead tip and a linotype base. That may suit your purpose. The process is quite time consuming, however.

[jabo52521]

I'm waiting to see what our experts think of linotype wadcutters myself. Always thought they should be softer than that.

[John in WI]

I'm not sure what the experts HERE think, but the people at Buffalo Bore are raving about the "extra hard cast" wadcutters that they hare selling on the defensive ammo line.

It seemed like a strange idea to me--a non-+P .38 round, but with extra hard lead. No expansion at all--but it sounds like a sure thing there would be plenty of penetration.

[Dale53]

Well, we'll try to answer this one again (having internet problems).

I have not used wadcutters in self defense, period. However, Jim Cirillo (of the New York Stake Out Squad) told me that the only 100% stopper he found was a full power wadcutter in the left eye (he was right handed)... They used those full power wadcutters as duty rounds at the time (I believe that they were limited to .38 Specials for political reasons).

I seriously doubt that anything in a solid based wadcutter from 50/50 WW/Lead to my standard alloy of WW+2% would seriously expand a 850 fps velocity. My experience on edible small game showed the wadcutters from target velocity to standard velocity (850 fps) were very effective but showed little or no expansion. I never recovered a bullet but they sure cut serious holes in the "target"...

I regularly shoot 3.0-3.5 grs of Bullseye in .38 Special (around 850 fps at 3.5 grs as I remember) with excellent results on targets and game.

A thought or two...

Dale53

[nicholst55]

Based on the theory that 'Shot placement is king, penetration is queen. All else is just angels dancing on the head of a pin,' and taking Jim Cirillo's experience into account, I think a relatively hard wadcutter would probably do the job - providing you can put it where it needs to be. If the bullet penetrates to the vital organs, expansion isn't mandatory. Desirable, yes, but not absolutely necessary.

Jim Cirillo certainly had better occasion than 99% of us to know what works and what doesn't in a gunfight - he essentially sought out gunfights with armed felons for a living!

That's my take on it, anyway.

[John in WI]

Oh--I fully and completely agree. Shot placement is THE key. Better to hit with a .22 than miss with a .44!

I shoot hundreds of .38 WCs through my .38 and would trust them to knock a deep hole in a target.

I'm just wondering what kinds of hardness that the Buffalo Bore rounds have. They only say "Very hard cast". I'm guess something like 80% WW with 20% linotype would give me a very hard alloy (by .38spl standards).

[44MAG#1]

Why not buy 500 bullets from Rim Rock Bullets and try them? I think they are 46 dollars for 500 plus postage?

[John in WI]

Wow--I was shocked at the Rimrock site! 4% tin and 10% antimony! I bet those things are hard as rocks!

Maybe I will shoot for a 50:50 WW:Lino alloy. I realistically can't see where I need anything like 10% antimony for these bullets.

[Defcon-One]

John: When I hear Hardcast and buying cast bullets, I immediately think of Hardball alloy. It is also known as Magnum alloy. That is probably a good place to start when trying to match commercial Hard cast bullets. Super Hard Cast implies even harder, which I would interperet to mean more Antimony!

Here is some background I came accross once (not mine, but there was no by line!):


"Hardball" alloy is the generic designation for Magnum alloy. Magnum alloy has a composition of 2/6/92 (Sn/Sb/Pb).

The alloy was a joint development effort by Terracorp and Magma. The goal was to develop an economical yet effective replacement of Lyman No.2 for the commercial casters.

The hardball alloy is most easily created by mixing equal parts of Pure Lead with Linotype (4/12/84). Doing so gives us the resulting 2/6/92.

Lyman No.2 composition----5/5/90 BHN of 15
"Hardball" composition------2/6/92 BHN of 16

Terracorp copyrighted the term "Magnum Alloy". As others began using the 2/6/92 composition, legal battles ensued. The final decision was that although Terracorp had rights to the name, they had no rights to the actual alloy composition. So the industry name for 2/6/92 has developed into "Hardball Alloy". The two alloys are identical except for the name.

Although they are very different in hardening characteristics, antimony and tin are very similar in other ways, namely in casting characteristics. So the two alloys (Hardball and Lyman No.2) are very similar. Final casting diameter is nearly identical, as is final hardness. Accomplishing these results while using less than half the tin is definitely to the advantage of the commercial caster. Not to mention that at the time of development, Linotype metal was readily available.

The largest difference between the two alloys concerns malleability/brittleness. The Lyman No.2 alloy has a slight advantage in this aspect (less brittle) due to increased tin content in relation to the amount of antimony present.

One is more malleable, while the other is more economical- take your pick.

One last note: To approximate Hardball (Magnum Alloy) just mix 10 lbs. of clip-on wheel weight Lead with 5.2 lbs. of Linotype and add 2.25 ounces of 50/50 solder to bring the Tin up to spec!

[John in WI]

Wow Defcon--that's exactly the info I was hoping to learn. A recipe using WW, solder, and Lino. I think I'm going to cook up a batch once the linotype arrives and see how they work out.

[MGySgt]

Why not just water drop your WW with a little tin added? Hardness will be in the linotype area and you can use your standard allow?

[runfiverun]

how much penetration do you need?
the 358477 cast from clip on ww's and some tin pushed by 4 grs of 231 will punch through a cow's skull and penetrate a foot of neck muscle reliably.
if you want more damage than that move up in diameter.

[paul h]

Just water drop your ww alloy, it wil be plenty hard for your use.

Here's a .475" 460 gr wfn launched at 1100 fps, bullet on left went through 38" of wet newsprint, bullet on right ~2" of bone and ~10" of wet newsprint. Bullet cast from clip on ww's and dropped into a 5 gal bucket of water, bhn ~18.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/evefiles/photo_albums/6/0/5/605102271/790102446_E694F7AB8CF06937E17554D03A00F87B.jpg

I'd imagine even less deformation at 850 fps.

[Char-Gar]

I think you should either buy some of that rock hard WCs or water drop some of your own. Do it, and you will realize why you should not do it.

The worse leaded sixgun (barrel and cylinder throats) I ever had was when I cast some WCs, from Lintotype. That was back in 1965. I think I still have a few I could send you if you want to lead up your sixgun as well.

tip: The harder the alloy, the harder the leading it leaves behind. The harder the leading the harder it is to remove.

[fcvan]

I had a buddy shoot an adversary point blank with a hollow-based wadcutter (factory load) from his S&W 36. Abdomen shot, instant fight ender. Those wadcutters are pretty soft and the bullet lodged in the liver. A hard cast would likely have given through and through penetration with lots of tissue damage. Frank

[MGySgt]

The thing about defense/hunting loads - they can lead as long as the leading doesn't interfer with the accuracy needed for that application for the few rounds you will need.

If used in a SD situtation you can always clean the lead out from the 5 or so rounds you shoot after you get the gun back from the cops!

[John in WI]

That is kind of my plan--use the "normal" WC's (WW diluted down about 50% with range scrap) for practice, then use the rock hard ones for business. In the 6 shots I would be using of the full-house, rock hard loads, leading the barrel would be the least of my issues!

Any thoughts on how hard to push them? In my reloading manual, Lyman claims over 5gr Unique they were getting about 950fps. They weren't exactly the same wadcutter--but a similar style, with a crimp groove behind the shoulder, and a small dimple in the front.

It's just I know that WC's take up a huge amount of the case volume, and I'd hate to inadvertently compress the charge and cause unsafe pressures. When I used 4.5gr Unique, I can still hear the powder rattling around in the case loose, so there is at least a little bit of room to spare!

I was going to start at 4.2gr Unique and ramp it up, looking for any signs of tumbling/keyholing.

[MGySgt]

That is kind of my plan--use the "normal" WC's (WW diluted down about 50% with range scrap) for practice, then use the rock hard ones for business. In the 6 shots I would be using of the full-house, rock hard loads, leading the barrel would be the least of my issues!

Any thoughts on how hard to push them? In my reloading manual, Lyman claims over 5gr Unique they were getting about 950fps. They weren't exactly the same wadcutter--but a similar style, with a crimp groove behind the shoulder, and a small dimple in the front.

It's just I know that WC's take up a huge amount of the case volume, and I'd hate to inadvertently compress the charge and cause unsafe pressures. When I used 4.5gr Unique, I can still hear the powder rattling around in the case loose, so there is at least a little bit of room to spare!

I was going to start at 4.2gr Unique and ramp it up, looking for any signs of tumbling/keyholing.

Good plan - But I would clean the gun before each test to ensure that if you are getting leading - you don't give it a chance to build up too bad.

I would also try Bullseye - less muzzel flash
Let us know the results of your tests.

[John in WI]

What charge of Bullseye would you recommend? I'm very new to reloading, and so far Unique is the only powder I've used for .38. I was going to go with Power Pistol for the speed, but I heard you need to wear sunglasses with it!

[Char-Gar]

You don't need a rock hard bullet to give good pentration on a human torso. A WC or straight WW or even range scrap will be as effective as one much harder. We are not shooting bear here, or even moose or deer. Humans are pretty fragil compared to those critters. What makes the human so dangerous is his mind and will. Unless you shoot him in the head, the mind and will can still be a problem. Sometimes even then. The only certain way to pull the plug on a human is to disconnect the brain or sever the sinal cord.

A WC moving at 800-850 fps (3.5/BE) will be just as effective as the same bullet traveling 100 fps faster as the extra velocity won't produce expansion, which is the goal of adding velocity beyond a certain point. The load at 800-850 fps will be easier to control and place the bullet right on the button.

The original notion of a WC for defense is valid and not a bad idea. The notion of very hard and very fast is not as valid and has more downside than upside.

[MGySgt]

John,

I would start at 3.1 and go to a max of 3.5.

According to my Lyman 49th eddition 3.5 gives about 950 - Out of a snubby it will probably be around 850-875.

Take care and work up from the 3.1 especially since I doubt your WC is a lyman.

[Char-Gar]

Bear in mind, the Lyman data comes from a pressure gun with no barrel/cylinder gap and a longer barrel. I have put full WCs over a chrony several times, and they get no where near 900 fps over 3.5/BE when fired in a real sixgun.

[MGySgt]

As I have the snubbie (Ruger LCR) and a Chrono - but no cast WC - I can't test it.

Late last year I tested a 133 grain HP (358477 HPed) over a healthier dose of Bullseye, I actually got (with in a few FPS) of my 4 in Ruger Security Six. No I don't remember the velocity I got - sorry but I know it was around 870 or so.

Those are what I carry in my LCR. I cast them from 35/1 looking for expansion.

The do expand, but my thinking in recent months have been leading me towards a full WC out of AC WW. I don't think they need to be any harder than WW to do what needs to be done.

[zxcvbob]

I use indoor range scrap (mostly .22LR bullets) for my wadcutters, and water drop them. I don't add anything to sweeten the alloy. You would be amazed how little those boolits deform when they hit a steel backstop at .38 Special velocities.

I've started shooting them in lite .357 Magnum loads (4.5 grains of Promo, 1.35" OAL) which should give about 1050 or so FPS. I haven't found one of them yet that's hit a steel target to see how they fare. I think it would be a great SD round.

[John in WI]

I guess my interest in having them a little harder than "normal" would be that they would be my HD round. And around the house there is all kinds of "soft cover" Behind hollow core doors, heavy winter clothes... It just seems that something hard and relatively fast would have the oomph to punch a hole through something like that, and have enough velocity left over to still give a decent amount of penetration. I'm just envisioning the worst case scenario--a dude who's been pumping iron in prison for the past 10 years. That kind of thug could easily have more weight than the local deer. Plenty of muscle to blast through, then bone, and maybe a heavy coat or other obstacle in the way.
I'd be firing them from a 4" Smith, so recoil and follow up shots wouldn't be as big of an issue as it might be out of a snubby.

I realize the .38 isn't a deathray (although the Mossberg seems pretty close!) but I think hard, fast wadcutters is a viable strategy. I fire a ton of this exact same round in practice, and I do realize that shot placement is the number one thing. Unless you land the ideal shot, and the boolet only leaves a dent! But hammering a full .38 caliber hole through an aggressor would certainly start stacking the odds in your favor.

Maybe I'm old fashioned (sounds funny--I'm only .38) but my approach to the problem is one of "brute force and ignorance". Land something blunt, heavy, and fast at the appropriate target and it's going to cause some real damage.

[Char-Gar]

I have fired hundreds of thousands of rounds of 38 Special with a variety of bullets (including full WC) in the 145 to 165 grain range, over 3.5 grains of Bullseye. It is not pushing the red line in any way.

[Char-Gar]

I don't want to use a load that will defeat barriers in my home as there are family members in the house as well.

[MGySgt]

I don't want to use a load that will defeat barriers in my home as there are family members in the house as well.

+1

If the perp is behind a door - than he is not a threat to me or my family - he walks if he wants to - if he comes the other way, that is another story!

[Char-Gar]

+1

If the perp is behind a door - than he is not a threat to me or my family - he walks if he wants to - if he comes the other way, that is another story!

I could not have said that any better.

[44MAG#1]

That depends WHICH door he is behind. If it is a door that in inside the house is one story and the outside door is another.
There is no ONE answer to all situations. Just like there is not just ONE medication on the market for ALL medical conditions.
It would be possibe that a an armed person could break in without someone in the home hearing him. Maybe duck behing the door after see on TV that a door will protect them when I turn loose a 45 Auto and he finds out different.
One just never knows.

[zxcvbob]

BB is Buffalo Bore isn't it? (I thought it was "bevel base") http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/Smileys/default/smack.gif

[MGySgt]

That depends WHICH door he is behind. If it is a door that in inside the house is one story and the outside door is another.
There is no ONE answer to all situations. Just like there is not just ONE medication on the market for ALL medical conditions.
It would be possibe that a an armed person could break in without someone in the home hearing him. Maybe duck behing the door after see on TV that a door will protect them when I turn loose a 45 Auto and he finds out different.
One just never knows.

You are correct in that there are many different situtations where there could be a intruder in your home.

IF you, or your family, or a guest is not in immeadiate danger of bodily harm and the intruder wants out - Let him/her go.

Only use the weapon in a defensive manner - we are not LEO's that are there to catch the perps, chase down the bad guy or met out Justice, we are defending our property and innocent lives. Get as much information about the perp and turn it over to the LEO's that show up for the home invasion. Get a model number and color and liscene number of the vehicle they left in - if possible.

Yes, the perp was behind the door and you shot and killed them. You may be justified in the eyes of justice - however your life will never be the same.

When a LEO puts down a bad guy - they have to go to counselling to help them cope with taking a human life and the PD pays for that counselling - who is going to pay for yours?

[44MAG#1]

You are correct in that there are many different situtations where there could be a intruder in your home.

IF you, or your family, or a guest is not in immeadiate danger of bodily harm and the intruder wants out - Let him/her go.

Only use the weapon in a defensive manner - we are not LEO's that are there to catch the perps, chase down the bad guy or met out Justice, we are defending our property and innocent lives. Get as much information about the perp and turn it over to the LEO's that show up for the home invasion. Get a model number and color and liscene number of the vehicle they left in - if possible.

Yes, the perp was behind the door and you shot and killed them. You may be justified in the eyes of justice - however your life will never be the same.

When a LEO puts down a bad guy - they have to go to counseling to help them cope with taking a human life and the PD pays for that counseling - who is going to pay for yours?

You are correct. but how much counseling would one go through if one hesitated to fire to protect thinking the perp would run when he would fire and kill ones loved one?
Ever thought about that. My life wouldn't be the same then either. Now would it.
See many different things to consider. Neither you or I am entirely correct. You have one scenario and I have another. See that is the way life works. Your way or my way may not work for everyone else in every situation.
As for me I am going to try to protect my home and my family and my person with as much judgment as the perp allows me to. Now how much will he allow me to use? I don't want to hurt anything or anyone. But who know what situation one may encounter.
Enough on this subject I think as neither you nor I can answer all questions on this subject.

[MGySgt]

correct

[John in WI]

I wasn't thinking in terms of shooting someone before they come through the door---clearly when you pull the trigger you need to be 100% certain you know who you're aiming at. And shooting someone trying to escape puts one on very slippery legal and ethical grounds

I was thinking of someone jumping for cover behind a heavy recliner so they can return fire, or grab whatever cover is available. The lethal threat has already been demonstrated. And as I said--in the winter around here the winter clothes get awefully thick. That combined with an aggressor who's spent some years pumping iron in the bighouse. I was just after a round that had enough punch to get through some "soft cover" and "light armor". Stuff like furniture, heavy clothes, and heavy muscle.

[paul h]

If you shoot someone through a door or behind furniture, it's going to look alot more like murder than self defense. Shootouts tend to be fairly short affairs unless neither the assailant or defender are unable to place their shots.

I can understand being concerned about a 125gr hp penetrating through heavy clothing, but a 148 gr wadcutter at ~850 fps is going to have reasonbly decent penetration even when cast relatively soft ~bhn 10. You have to drive a cast bullet quite a bit faster before that level of hardness becomes an issue, at least 1200 fps if not 1500 fps.

[MGySgt]

Yea - we sorta hijacked your thread - my apoligy for that.

Your .38 +P WC in a 4 in barrel with water dropped WW will be plenty hard enough. And if they lead a little for a cylinder or 2 no big deal as that is all you would probably shoot in that type of engagement.

You can always test them on some old rages built up on a piece of plywood with a 1 gal water jug filled behind it.

[44MAG#1]

As I stated above no one has the correct answer for all situations. Do what you want. It is up to you in the final few seconds to make as good a decision as you can in a Deadly Situation. That is all you can do. DO THE BEST YOU CAN that is all YOU can do. What I say or anyone else says is just us flapping our lips as to what we THINK we would do. We don't even know what WE would do until a given senario happens.
Again do what you want that is what I would do.

[zxcvbob]

I am shooting Lee tumble lube wadcutters in .357 Magnum in a 4" revolver and getting some leading but it is self-limiting. I shoot 50 of them and the bore looks pretty bad but you can still clearly see the rifling. Accuracy is still good. Shoot 200 more and peek again and it doesn't look any worse.

Leading is the absolute least of your worries.

[Frank V]

We need to remember if we try to push wadcutters too hard, they normally seat deeper in the case than a SWC or RN. It could boost pressures more than we are aware of. Of course we could always seat them out a bit to compensate.
Frank

[geargnasher]

I'm still trying to figure out why Bullseye is the powder of choice here. Target, yes. Stopping power and velocity? No.

Gear

[zxcvbob]

I'm still trying to figure out why Bullseye is the powder of choice here. Target, yes. Stopping power and velocity? No.

Gear

A load that I've worked up that I like is a 148 grain DEWC with 7.0 grains of WSF powder and an OAL of 1.35". I haven't chronographed it but estimate it at over 1200 fps from a 4" revolver. This is definitely a .357 Magnum load.

If you want to approach that with a .38 Special, use Power Pistol -- about 5.5 grains with the boolit crimped in the crimp groove. It'll get you over 1000 fps. If you crimp it over the top of the boolit you'll have to drop back to about 5 grains to keep the pressure down and you will lose significant velocity.

Since my gun is a .357 Magnum, I use the Red Dot load I gave earlier for practice, then I carry 158 grain .38 Special +P's. I would be comfortable carrying moderate .357 Magnum wadcutters.

[MGySgt]

I'm still trying to figure out why Bullseye is the powder of choice here. Target, yes. Stopping power and velocity? No.

Gear

Muzzel Flash in a darkend room/area. Limited testing with Unique, 231 and Bullsey in my Ruger LCR - 231 and Unique I was blinded and couldn't see my 20 foot high burm 7 yards away.

With Bullseye - while my sight was dimissioned I could still see my cardboard target and put rounds on target.

Note - when you have a range in your back yard you test what you want when you want. My neighbors got use to it. :)