A good load for my S & W 686

[Ben]

May have found me a nice accurate load for my new S & W 686.

I have my old ( new to me ) TEXAN , 3 hole press set up for 5.3 grs. of Unique
with the Lyman 358156 ( I have solids and HP's ) sized to .358". These are loaded
in 38 Spec. cases and crimped in the lower ring of the gas checked 358156 bullet.

This load is shooting great in my particular revolver !

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/001-32.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/002-38.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/003-31.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/006-26.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/007-21.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Photo0486.jpg

[Jack Stanley]

Still ..... it ain't a BAD group

Jack

[smoked turkey]

Ben that is some good information as always. I was admiring your old press and your set-up in the background. Looks like you have set up a very nice place to work. Oh yes, the loads and targets look good too!

[Ben]

smoked turkey,

My loading area was at one time ( about 30 yrs. ago ) very neat and organized. No more, I've allowed it to get cluttered and in disarray. However I still know where everything is.

Sound familiar ?
__________________________

Jack,

Wouldn't make a bad defense load would it ? I wonder in my 6 " 686 what the speed is. I'm thinking about 900 - 950 fps or so ?

Ben

[Mark85304]

Very nice!

Good to see someone else shooting a 686 these days. I've been shooting mine since 1984 and have put thousands of rounds through it, mostly lead. I used mine primarily as my service revolver with the Sheriff's Department, but it saw it's fair share of hunting and Pistol Silhouette competition as well.

I believe you shoot what you carry so you know exactly how it feels, exactly how it handles, and it becomes second nature to you. That way if you ever need it, it becomes instinctive. It is a little big for a concealed carry pistol (inside the waistband in the small of my back holster), but I do it because it is so familiar to me.

I've come to loading Hornady 158 grn XTP HP with H110 for all my carry loads.

That is a nice boolit you are shooting. I like PB boolits only because with the amount that I shoot, I don't want to deal with adding a GC. However, for competition loads (.357 Mag in my Contender), I will spend the time to add a GC, but I also move up to a heavier boolit (200 grn RN). I'm sure I can do better with a GC in my wheel gun, but this works for me.

Mark

[Ben]

Mark,

I'm just not a " black plastic " auto pistol fan.
I still like the revolvers.

Ben

[bobthenailer]

4.0 to 4.5 grs of BE or tightgroup loaded in 357 mag cases , with lead bullets from 148 to 200 gr weither wc/swc/tc /rn or wfn has shot extremely well for me over 30 + years in every 357 ive ever owned ! about 15 or so different guns. velocity is around 800 to 850 fps

[Shooter6br]

I use the same load in Smith Model 10.I use old Lee 158 Hp mold.I really like the H&G 50 WC with 3.8 g Unique.Nice group!!!!!

[Ben]

One might wonder why I started with the 358156 in my search for an accurate load with my new S & W 686 ?

I read Skeeter's articles back in the early 70's. His opinions on loads and reloading practices had a great impact on me. ( although today....one probably needs to use some of his max. loads with a 10 - 15 % reduction in powder charge just to be on the safe side of things )

The 358156 has always been a favorite of mine since.

This is a quote by Skeeter :

" I have used many different bullet styles besides the Lyman 358156, although it has remained nearest my heart. "

Here is the complete article :

http://www.darkcanyon.net/MyFriend_The357.htm

Ben

[Kraschenbirn]

Ben...

Yours is essentially the same load I've always shot in my 80s-vintage 586...except my mould for the 358156 hasn't been hollow-pointed. When I first got my 586, I hung an LER scope on it while developing loads and found that it would shoot sub-2" groups at 25 yds with about anything I put down the barrel...so long as it was sized .358. Finally settled on 5.2 gr. Unique for my 358156s and 3.2 gr Bullseye for commercial 148 gr DEWCs. Even after 30,000+ rounds through the gun, either load will still shoot better than I can hold.

Bill

[PacMan]

I just sold a 358156 GC 2 cavity becaue i picked up a 4 cavity. In two years of diffrent bullets it out shoots everything i have tried. Pushing it a solid 1300fps it will do one inch at 25yards out of my 4"GP100. A good trigger and a good shot could really make that bullet looking amazing.

[Jack Stanley]

I bet it would make a good defense load Ben and you're probably right on the velocity guess as well . I sold my 358156 solid shortly after joining this forum , I haven't really been sad about it but I did go get a 358477 and I use a charge of Unique similar to yours .

I have a leftover can of Power Pistol I may burn up in this caliber and bullet .

Jack

[Ben]

Sounds as if my ideas ( and load data ) are in good company with several of you.

Good Shooting,
Ben

[Rex]

Ben, that load shoots good in my 686-4 4" with about any bullet I set on top of it. But most loads from mild to wild shoot well in this revolver. That bullet with a 38 special case and 12 grains of 2400 is pretty close to the old 38/44 hi-speed load. It is fun to shoot as well in a .357 revolver or N frame 38.

[Olevern]

+1 to what Rex said "most loads from mild to wild shoot well in this revolver". Mine is only a 3" but shoots well with practically anything I feed it.

[pmeisel]

You have very nearly what I have been shooting in my model 19s for about 20 years.

I also have a 2400 load I like -- Skeeter's too.

[27judge]

Here are a few pics of my 686 with a four inch barrel and a 2x leupold scope. This is using the 358156 and 2400, blue dot does almost as well .Some years ago i had a 686 hunter model with the full lug barrel and unfluted cyl. With a leupold 4 power scope It would shoot the 358156 into 2 inch or less groups at 50 yards and 2 1/2 at 75.Sad for me it was stolden along with some other fine guns. The 358156 is one fine bullet in the 357 handgun or rifle. My mold is over 35 years old tks ken

[Wrbjr]

Ben, nice post. Thanks for sharing this info. It is very interesting and brings up a couple of questions I would like to bounce off of you and all with input.

I have a model 66... I have loaded the Speer 158 Grain WCHP's that are similar to yours... and they shoot well, but have not yet tried to dump a cylinder full into the lil black hole yet... maybe next week when I go to the range.... however last night I was reading up on cast boolits for sale at a website called "Dardas Cast bullets" . Under the catagory of testimonials I found this gem. I was shocked. This warning is from Dardas.

Please do not use a Factory Crimp Die for cast bullet reloading. Cast bullets MUST be seated perfectly square to provide trouble free accurate reloads! Cast bullets MUST remain in their pristine state in order to shoot accurately. Factory Crimp Dies will alter the cast bullet's sized diameter and thus will cause many unwanted issues.

There was an individual in the testimonials section that swore up and down he lost his accuracy by ignoring this warning... and after reloading again using a very light taper crimp instead... regained his accuracy. ????????

I always roll crimp my wheel gun ammo..... AND with my RanchDog .311 for my Lever gun... you see where one could be concerned.... are we losing an accuracy edge by this roll crimp or is that warning for the extreme competition crowd and splitting hairs....? I read here that alot of guys hunt with the RanchDog bullets and I feel confident that if asked they would tell us they roll crimp these lead boolits..... thanks.....

Cornfused ....[smilie=b:

[Bret4207]

AFAIK the FCD is meant for jacketed. Regardless, the basic idea of a seater or crimp die being cut too tight for cast is nothing new. "Boolit Squish" is one of the first things to check for when you have a gun performing poorly with cast. The reason? Fit. Fit is King with cast. If your mould drops .360 boolits that you size to the .358 your gun wants ( or you buy them) and you stick them in a die that swages them down to .356......you gun isn't going to be happy. Doesn't matter if it's a FCD or RCB or Hornady or whatever. If the dies and case combo swages your boolit, it's a problem. Roll crimp, taper crimp, no crimp, doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not you are distorting the boolit. Operator error can also be heavily involved in this. Some people seem to think "more is better". I've seen, and produced!, roll crimps that were just excessive.

[Wrbjr]

AFAIK the FCD is meant for jacketed. Regardless, the basic idea of a seater or crimp die being cut too tight for cast is nothing new. "Boolit Squish" is one of the first things to check for when you have a gun performing poorly with cast. The reason? Fit. Fit is King with cast. If your mould drops .360 boolits that you size to the .358 your gun wants ( or you buy them) and you stick them in a die that swages them down to .356......you gun isn't going to be happy. Doesn't matter if it's a FCD or RCB or Hornady or whatever. If the dies and case combo swages your boolit, it's a problem. Roll crimp, taper crimp, no crimp, doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not you are distorting the boolit. Operator error can also be heavily involved in this. Some people seem to think "more is better". I've seen, and produced!, roll crimps that were just excessive.

Thanks, Brett.... I will say that more than a few report good accuracy with crimped cast rounds... however.... I guess the question buzzing around in my head now is if I skip the crimp station.... with cast.... and I have molds for revolver, pistol and rifle... would the ammo (bullet into the case) in a tube such as my Marlin 336/30.30 not be compressed deeper with recoil and pressure from the tube itself? I don't see any problem with the revolvers...I suppose.

[Bret4207]

Depends on neck tension, magazine tube pressure, recoil, probably other things. What I would do is start with the lightest crimp I'm comfortable with and see what happens. Just because you need to crimp doesn't mean you have to be a gorilla about it. Using the crimp groove can help if you do get set back.

I in no way meant to imply that crimping is AUTOMATICALLY going to result in boolit squish every time. I crimp most of my loads. You just have to customize your crimp for that gun and load.

[Wrbjr]

Depends on neck tension, magazine tube pressure, recoil, probably other things. What I would do is start with the lightest crimp I'm comfortable with and see what happens. Just because you need to crimp doesn't mean you have to be a gorilla about it. Using the crimp groove can help if you do get set back.

I in no way meant to imply that crimping is AUTOMATICALLY going to result in boolit squish every time. I crimp most of my loads. You just have to customize your crimp for that gun and load.

Yep, I understand where you are coming from... and it makes sense to me. When blanket statements like the one I mentioned from Dardas are made it just seems like they are probably competition shooters that are looking for every edge they can get to shoot that infamous ragged hole. But I will definitely ease up as much as possible on my cast crimps from now on and try a few without any in each firearm to test the results.

[PacMan]

Did i miss somthing here? Is a factory crimp considered a roll crimp in our terms?
Factory crimp dies can and will size a cast bullet if to soft (LFC) being an example. Now over doing a roll crimp will most likely loosen case tension and i quess if the bullet is soft enough and the case hard enough could result in reduced bullet size behind the crimp. Really dout it though.

Enlighten me please.
Pac

[Wrbjr]

Did i miss somthing here? Is a factory crimp considered a roll crimp in our terms?
Factory crimp dies can and will size a cast bullet if to soft (LFC) being an example. Now over doing a roll crimp will most likely loosen case tension and i quess if the bullet is soft enough and the case hard enough could result in reduced bullet size behind the crimp. Really dout it though.

Enlighten me please.
Pac

My understanding of crimps are pistols/taper crimps...revolvers/roll crimps.
I have been informed by someone that they always crimp cast boolits for revolvers in a crimp groove. For pistols a taper type crimp just enough to remove the mouth flare. Reviewing the statement from Dardas... and checking their cast boolits...(and they are very well made) they do not have any crimp grooves... so that might be why they posted such a strong warning....? My thoughts anyway...

[Bret4207]

Did i miss somthing here? Is a factory crimp considered a roll crimp in our terms?
Factory crimp dies can and will size a cast bullet if to soft (LFC) being an example. Now over doing a roll crimp will most likely loosen case tension and i quess if the bullet is soft enough and the case hard enough could result in reduced bullet size behind the crimp. Really dout it though.

Enlighten me please.
Pac

He's talking the Lee Factory Crimp Die, not the factory produced roll crimps. The FCD produces no roll that I've seen. Not sure that answers your query. IME, being the type to grab a bigger hammer ASAP, I've seen roll crimps the really distort the boolit and brass. I think, as in all things, moderation and observation are the key to success.

[Lance Boyle]

I don't have a Lee Factory Crimp Die but I suppose they're saying that the die will crimp in a lot more of the bullet diameter than the more simple roll crimp. There are fingers surround the neck, much like a collet style bullet puller, when the case with bullet goes up the die the fingers hit a taper if you will and they "size" the neck in. I could see where the use/misuse of the FCD would resize/distort your bullet.

Lots of people swear by the Lee FCD design. the 7.62x54R guys see to think they add a fair amount of accuracy to their reloads.