5.45x39 reloading

[historicfirearms]

I just got done putting together a bulgarian ak74 kit and it turned out pretty well. Being a reloader, I hate throwing away any brass, or in this case steel casings. I've reloaded berdan steel cases before in 7.62x39 so I know I can do it if I have too. My questions are twofold: anyone used .224 bullets, and anyone have any published data and if not what powder and charge weight did you use? I know reloading dies can be had from Lee and rcbs on special order for more money. I wonder if there is enough interest here for a group buy on dies...

[303Guy]

The bore specs are .214/.220 so the .224 bullets may be a bit tight. Will a loaded cartridge even chamber with .224 bullets?

[Piedmont]

I'm suspicious about the .220 groove diameter because I have measured ammo with .225" bullets. Suggest you slug your bore and also suggest .224" bullets would be fine. Some guy was reforming .222 cases on the internet a while back. You have to blow them out at the base but they worked.

[303Guy]

I'm pretty sure the bullet is .220 diameter.

[Danderdude]

1. There are NO manufacturers of 5.45 brass. Not even Prvi, and they make all kinds of obsolete and esoteric brass. Hornady 5.45 is made with imported steel cases. You're stuck with surplus steel or fireformed.

2. .224" J-word bullets can be reduced down easily about .002" at a time using the Lee push-through sizing dies.

[historicfirearms]

I just slugged my bore and got .2219 groove dia. Also tried a .224 j word shoved in an unsized case and it will chamber. I'll try making up a few cast boolits sized to .224 and see how they shoot. Still not sure where to start with data. I bet Privi will eventually start making brass but for now I can get by with steel berdan. I just like to know that I can do it if I need to.

[historicfirearms]

FYI I just got an email back from Hornady tech support and they use a .2215 dia bullet in their factory 5.45 ammo. They won't sell component bullets by the way , saying that steel cases are unreloadable.

[Piedmont]

The bullets I measured at .225 were in Russian factory ammo. I'm not saying it all measures that big but some sure does.

[0verkill]

I could be totally wrong, but I was sure I saw Midway carrying 5.45 bullets. Z-max I think.

[GRUMPA]

1. There are NO manufacturers of 5.45 brass. Not even Prvi, and they make all kinds of obsolete and esoteric brass. Hornady 5.45 is made with imported steel cases. You're stuck with surplus steel or fireformed.

2. .224" J-word bullets can be reduced down easily about .002" at a time using the Lee push-through sizing dies.

Yes....I realize this is an old thread but for the cases they're almost to the field trial stage. These take an ungawdly amount of time to do with a lot of rejects along the way....

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?254380-5-45x39-brass-under-development-9-21-14

[DCM]

IME 222rem cases will expand quite a bit at the base and Many will split upon firing.
I was able to get Some Hornady Blems from midway.
I have not tried the 0.224" bullets but I suspect if the rounds will chamber they will function fine.
Bullet sizers should not really be that difficult to make with a proper reamer.

[GRUMPA]

Using 222Rem brass in my mind might work once, and maybe twice. The problem comes from the unique size of the 5.45x39 cases itself. The 222Rem case base diameter is .370ish while the spec for the 5.45x39 case is .3937 with a chamber diameter of .395, so there's more than a bit of wiggle room when using a converted 222Rem case.

Bullets can be squeezed down using a LEE push through sizer die, they make those in there custom shop and they just got done making them for a group buy. If you ever looked for .221 diameter bullets there's not what I would call a lot of flavors available, but more than a lot in .224 diameter and with the sizer LEE makes your only limited by your imagination as far as possible combinations.

[DCM]

123797
Here is what about 25% of the 5.45X39 cases made from 222Rem look like after their first firing due to sidewall expansion to fit the chamber.

If you look closely at the base you may be able to see the bulge.

[historicfirearms]

That's a little scary looking DCM, hope nobody got hurt. It's been so long since I started this thread that I had forgotten about it.

[DCM]

No one was hurt, I thank God for that.
Did say a few extra thank you prayers when I picked up the brass.
I Just re-found the cases the other day whilst cleaning up a bit.

[RU shooter]

Just a thought out loud but instead of 222 brass what about .223 brass that has already been fired in a more sloppy chambered AR I would assume that those would be bigger in dia than 222 brass fired in a sporting rifle ? Sure there's more work involved in making them from .223 but the dia. would be bigger

[NuJudge]

People on the AK discussion boards did a group buy for 5.45x39 dies recently, made by Lee.

Hornady has been importing steel primed cases, then loading it in the US. Their blem bullets have been getting sold at Midway.

It is possible to reload steel cases. Some of the 5.45 Russian cases are primed with .217" Berdan primers, which are available.

[dfsdo]

Has anybody looked at using 220 Russian brass, parent for the PPC cartridges?

[rrob692326]

Midway was selling 5.45 bullets a few months ago for a super price $8.00 a hundred I think so I bought a buttload, they were being sold as blems but they were absolutely perfect to me. There is a guy on ebay that sells primer sleeves that allow you to use small pistol primers in the standard 5.45 steel case of course you have to drill out the berdan anvil first. This guy sells the small, medium and large sleeves and the tool to drill out the anvils in all sizes of the berdan cases.
No ebay links, ever.

[pacomdiver]

i used the berdan drill kit he sells on some x54 brass cases i have and it works as it should. i was gonna try it on some x39 cases to see how feasable it would be as i have a fair amount of m67 cases in a brass bucket, only thing i do differently is, i drill the hole from the inside but dont remove the primer cup, i drill it from the outside with a bit smaller than the primer and then use a rcbs primer pocket swager and swage the pocket and load a regular LR boxer primer. i have test lot cases with 6 loadings on them and they are still going strong

[GONRA]

GONRA suggests carefully selecting primers - think about SLAMFIRES!! CCI military primers should be used, not just anything!

[biffj]

Now its possible to get new brass cases and bullets from Hornady. Grafs and Midway both have them. Hornady is supposed to be making dies available soon so now we need load data. The hornady bullets are 60gr Vmax and .2215". I've had an SSG82 for years and wanted to load for it but never had the time to mod cases and didn't have dies. Looking forward to finally getting to shoot this thing. I don't think I'll need to worry about slam fires with the bolt action and would normally use CCI BR4's for primers but some idiot at Hornady designed the cases with large rifle primers. What the hell were they thinking? Oh well.....looks like Fed 210s.

Frank

[John Boy]

Roberson Cartridge make the 5.45x39 lathe turned brass

[Hickok]

Now we just need some solid and tested load data for 50, 60 and 70 grain bullets.

I have the lee 221" sizer and have been sizing down .224" bullets and making "Mexican match" loads buy pulling 60 gr FMJ's and replacing with soft-points and expanding bullets.

Bought a set of reloading dies from one of the good fellows here.

[TheGrimReaper]

https://hi-techammo.com/products/5-45-x-39-55-gr-jacketed-hollow-point-bullets-222-dia-100-bullets
$4.00 a hundred pretty cheap

[Hickok]

https://hi-techammo.com/products/5-45-x-39-55-gr-jacketed-hollow-point-bullets-222-dia-100-bullets
$4.00 a hundred pretty cheapThat is a good deal for 100 bullets.

Does anyone know how close .222 Remington loading data is to the 5.45 x 39?

[biffj]

Cases are different not only in length but diameter too. That can make a big difference in burn rates and pressures. I'm guessing it wouldn't be a great starting point. Just looking up a quickload setup for 55gr bullets they say about 18gr of Reloader 7 should be about 98% fill and 2750fps. No idea what the 222 would do with that one?

Frank

[Texas by God]

What kind of accuracy does an AK74 clone produce with reloads? With the now long gone surplus ammo, I was underwhelmed by an AR 15/5.45x39- when it would fire( HARD primers)!
Not my bag when the .223/5.56 is the EASY button, but different strokes...

[Ledslnger]

I believe I remember seeing a video regarding differing bore sizes. Can't remember if it was a revision thing, different manufacturers, country of origin, or what the deal was. I would mic the bore if I got one of these to see what route to take.

[biffj]

I don't recall the original AK74 having varying bore sizes. The semi auto guns assembled or built here had some issues early on with guys trying to use .223 barrels with a .224 bore and the russian military ammo. I'm not sure it was really as big a deal as some thought but it caught on like a brush fire with the internet gurus and was reported as a death knell to the AK74's built with american barrels. The standard bore is supposed to be .221 with a land diameter of .217 if memory serves. I've never slugged the bore in any of the AK's as the accuracy is more dependent on the rifle and shooter than the bore. Most aren't better than 2 inches at 100 due to the gas system and other crap hanging on the barrel disturbing it. I have seen some of the SSG82s shooting sub moa though with well made ammo. I think they're worth loading for as the time it takes and effort in working up loads isn't something I want to do for a blaster like the AK. I can still buy military ammo cheaper for them than it takes to load it. Love my Ak's but not for shooting golfballs or prairie dogs at longer ranges. I'll use a bolt gun for that.....just my own thoughts.

Frank

[DCM]

Does anyone know how close .222 Remington loading data is to the 5.45 x 39?

An old reloader friend taught me it is mostly a matter of internal case volume with the same bore size. So a comparison of case volumes would be in order. the bore of each is close enough that it will not make much difference. The 5.45mm Bore will have Slightly higher pressure/volume than a 5.56 Bore but i doubt it will be much.

[DCM]

Hornady brass

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/000038609/5point45x39-unprimed-rifle-brass-50-count

[biffj]

I picked up some of the hornady brass and bullets a few months back. It all looks good. Still waiting for the dies though.....no one knows when they're going to be available.

Frank

[Hickok]

Not scientific, but I poured some H110 into a new .222 Rem case and a new (pulled the bullet) Russian 7n6 case, filled both to the bottom of the neck. The weight of the powder was almost identical, with the 7n6 case just about 2 tenths of a grain more capacity.

NOT RECOMMENDING ANY ONE DO IT, but for me, I would venture to say .222 rem load data would be very close with appropriate sized- down and same weight bullets, at least for a minimum starting point and then carefully work up. Different bullets have different bearing surfaces and ogives, etc.

Also, I have miked Tula 60 gr and Russian 7N6 53 gr bullets, and get .222" diameter. My Lee sizer is .221", so I may order a .222" sizer and give it a try. Hornady 5.45 x 29 60 Vmax mike at .2215"

Please chime in with any findings you may have.

[DCM]

The new Hornady 5.45x39 brass I checked holds 26.8 g of distilled water. Haven't gotten any further yet.

[DCM]

Steel cases for this caliber are close to the same internal volume as the new Hornady brass, 222rem cases are reportedly about a grain more internal volume so charges would need to be reduced.

[DCM]

Initial Quickloads findings from a friend show promising results with W748, Hodgdon benchmark, Alliant AR-comp and VV N-130. With proper 60g FLGC Hornady V-max bullets @2.227"OAL.

[biffj]

The hornady dies showed up yesterday finally. Arriving soon means in a couple months I guess. Now I'm just needing load data to start playing with this. I'll fiddle with quickload for a bit. Looking around I see a few others running 4198 at 17-20gr though that wouldn't be my first choice. Can't be too hard, the russians did it. . >

Frank

[biffj]

Now I'm a bit confused. Wikipedia says the CIP spec for pressure for the 5.45X39 is 55,114 psi. I see other information that states the russians and other countries that manufacture the round are loading to 41,000-44,000 psi. Not wanting to blow up a perfectly good SSG82 rifle I'm wondering what the real numbers are. I know that wiki stuff is ultra reliable (not) so anyone know where good info can be had.
If the 55,114 psi number is actually good than Win 748 looks like a winner with the Hornady 60gr bullets.

Frank

[ThomR]

55,000 should be about right. You should be able to use 222 Remington load data for it. 222 Remington has a case capacity of 26.9gr of H2O, while 5.45x39 has a case capacity of 27gr of H20.

[biffj]

Played with quickload a bit and came up with a couple starting loads. 22.5gr of 8208XBR and 23gr of IMR4895. The 4895 seemed to be the lower of the two for recoil and blasting a chunk out of the soggy earth where I fired the test rounds. The 8208 was a little more snappy. I realize these fail to quantify anything but both loads left the cases nice and no pressure signs on primers or hard bolt lift. The rifle is an SSG82 and I loaded the 60gr hornady Vmax bullets to about .010 off contact with the lands. That puts them about 40 thousandths too long for the mag but I don't really care. I'd rather have good accuracy and shorter jumps seem to help. I can single feed. Hopefully I'll get to the range in the near future and see how the accuracy looks and velocity too. Quickload has both loads at mid 2900's and 43,000 psi. I'll work things up a bit as I go on. I doubt much of this will be good for the AK's since I'm loading over mag length but it might give a starting point.

Frank

[attila]

Hi all!

I loaded some 5.45 on Monday the 15th and thought it might help someone here.

Unfortunately, I haven’t found any in-stock brass and haven’t bought a 5.45 shell holder yet, so I formed my 5.45 brass from once-fired 350 Legend. This led to an arduous process: anneal, trim, form, decrimp primer pocket, turn the necks, trim to 1.55”, deburr/chamfer. I’d definitely like some proper brass eventually, but I have around 60-70 pieces of 350 Legend brass and no gun in that caliber, so I don’t mind using them up for this.

I loaded some of the 5.45-specific 60-grain V-Max to 2.265” over 21.5 grains of Shooters World AR-Plus (similar to Accurate 2230) with Wolf SRP.

When fire-forming them, I was expecting 2600-2700 fps from my 16” Huldra (Adams) Arms upper, but this load averaged 2744 fps with no pressure signs. That’s about 100 fps higher than I expected and only 25 lb-ft of energy shy of the 7N6 I chronoed yesterday. I plan to pressure test them with the AR-Plus in the near future.

I also measured the average case capacity in grains of water. The once-fired 5.45x39 converted from 350 Legend brass averages about 26.9 grains of water, while 7N6 cases have a tad more, with the one case I measured being 27.3 grains of water.

Anyone here measure their Hornady brass for case capacity? I’ve heard reports of what it’s supposed to be, but don’t recall seeing anyone who’s actually checked.

Lastly, I just talked to Hornady yesterday, asking after 5.45 load data, and the rep told me the following combination:
Hornady brass
60 grain V-Max
22.5-25.5 grains CFE223

I don’t have any CFE223, but it’s good data, nonetheless.

[attila]

I performed a short pressure test yesterday:
60 gr V-Max @2.265”
Wolf SRP
Shooters World AR-Plus
One load each at 22.0, 22.3, 22.6, 22.9, and 23.2 grains

No pressure signs on any of the cases, and max velocity I saw was 2940 fps! I think 23.5 and a few more smaller steps are in order, and I have high hopes of safely reaching 3000 fps. I’ll probably load 10 of the 23.2 to check for average velocity of a long string first.

The only issue I see is that the 5.45 bolt doesn’t fully engage the case rim, causing a little bit of damage during extraction.

Also, I’m only working with iron sights at present, so accuracy testing wouldn’t show much, but I might still try.

[biffj]

That seems like a lot of work but its interesting to see an alternative. I finally got out to test the factory brass and bullets in my SSG82 rifle. It has a 20in barrel and I was using 23.5gr of 8208XBR with the 60gr Vmax bullets. I was getting an average of 3016fps with no sign of pressure on primers or brass. No difficulty opening the bolt either. I may go a bit higher on the load to see how it goes. Might have to run a few rounds through one of the AK's too just to see how it works with the semi and shorter barrel.

Frank

[attila]

Just in case if anyone is in need, MidwayUSA has 4x 100-bullet packs of the factory seconds 60 gr V-max.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010918025?pid=399673

[Greg S]

Abit spendy but check Lapua. Was looking for some for an East Germany Steyer Border Patrol rifle about 5 years ago.

Brownells has Hornady bullets in stock. I thought the 220 Russian case was the parent case but no joy.

[akajun]

Way back when I made my 545 brass from split neck 223 and 222 cases.
Cut off .1” too long, anneal, run through the size die only, trim to length and anneal again, then put the expander / de primer back in the die and size as normal .
Iirc I used blc2 ammo and blem 60 gr v max bullets
Ran through all my ak74’s fine, but the back of the case did bulge out some, I simply reloaded the bulged cases, never had a problem