Help with my AR

[fish0123]

I just got a new AR-15 and I would like to start casting for it. This will be my first attempt at casting for a rifle of any kind and I have read that it can be a challenge. I don't plan to do any sniping with this rifle, I just want to blast random targets 50 yards and closer. I was hoping to get some feedback from you guys about my current plans. The rifle is a s&w mp 15 sport with the 1/8 twist.

So far my plan is to purchase the RCBS 22-055-SP 22 Caliber mold, size water cooled WW to .224, seat a gas check, and lube it with NRA 50-50. I have been amazed that Universal Clays powder has worked flawlessly for every pistol load I have tried, but I understand I may have to switch for the AR. What type of powder would you guys recommend? Other than that I just plan on starting off with light loads until the AR cycles reliably and hope it shoots relatively straight.

What do you guys think/ suggest? I am totally fine with mediocre accuracy and having to clean the gun after every use. Am I getting in over my head or is this possible with the 1/8 twist barrel?

[rockrat]

I would go .225" with sizing. Thats what I plan on doing.

[xacex]

I tried 18 grains of h4895 with a 55 grain lee bator, and it cycled fine. I have a few cast up and some gas checks if you want to try em. I switched to 300 blackout so all my 223 stuff is just sitting here. I wont get rid of this mold just yet however just because is cast such nice little bullets.
The Universal clays is my go to for .45 acp. Out of all the powders I have tried it has given me the best velocity and accuracy. Also load it for 9mm, and .357 sig. It didn't perform well with the sig but that is where the blue dot shines so I will leave it at that.
xacex

[fish0123]

Thanks rockrat, I'll order the .225 sizing die instead.

Thanks ace, I'll try the H4895 powder. I sent you a pm.

[Hamish]

Save yourself a *lot* of headache and do several searches, starting with "slugging" your barrel. Also, measure the inside of the case neck of a fired cartridge, this is a much better starting point than a wild guess.

Depending on the barrel, you may need a .225, a .226, or other dimension of sizer die.

YMMV

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks rockrat, I'll order the .225 sizing die instead.

Thanks ace, I'll try the H4895 powder. I sent you a pm.

Start at 15 gr and use a 1/2 gr dacron filler. Work up in 1/2 gr increments with reliable functioning being the intitial goal. Best accuracy will probably there.

Larry Gibson

[xacex]

With cast bullets you will need to flare the case mouth with a Philips screwdriver, or with closed needle nose pliers to prevent the case mouth from shaving lead. Just bell it out enough that you can see that the mouth is flared and it should be fine. Larry has given you great advice, and I would follow his suggestion. The dacron filler is used to keep the powder down at the base of the case because of the powder being position sensitive. You can steal some dacron out of a teddy bear if you need just a little.
xacex

[fish0123]

Thanks for the help guys. I got my IMR4895 and just waiting on the dies and boolits to show up. I had planned on charging the case in my turret press with the powder charging die because I am used to pistol. Do you guys typically charge the cases on a loading block to have more room to put in filler and bell the mouth?

Edit: I just realized I was supposed to by hodgon 4895, will the IMR work? That's all that was available locally and I didn't want to pay the hazmat fee.

[xacex]

I was loading 223 on a turret press, and flared with a lee case mouth die so I ended up doing everything on the press. IMR an Hogdon 4895 are not the same, but very close. From what I understand the IMR was a reformulation of some (old) military powder, and the hodgdon was formulated afterword with a correct burn rate to the original . The IMR will be lower on the burn rate chart. I haven't used IMR4895 for loading lead 223 bullets so I cant help you there. I personally didn't try filler, but it may have increased my accuracy if I did.
xacex

[fish0123]

I have purchased the "Autodisk rifle powder charging die:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/792057/lee-auto-disk-rifle-powder-charging-die-22-to-30-calibers

and the "Pacesetter 3 die set"

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/434975/lee-pacesetter-3-die-set-223-remington

As far as I can tell from the description, neither of them have a die to bell the mouth of the case.

Is this it?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/140461/lee-universal-neck-expanding-die

Thanks for the help!


I was loading 223 on a turret press, and flared with a lee case mouth die so I ended up doing everything on the press. IMR an Hogdon 4895 are not the same, but very close. From what I understand the IMR was a reformulation of some (old) military powder, and the hodgdon was formulated afterword with a correct burn rate to the original . The IMR will be lower on the burn rate chart. I haven't used IMR4895 for loading lead 223 bullets so I cant help you there. I personally didn't try filler, but it may have increased my accuracy if I did.
xacex

[xacex]

Yup, that's the one! I only use it for rifle cases because the pistol dies already flare the case mouth with the charging die. The universal rifle charging die doesn't flare the case mouth. Bator molds can be found only here http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000622BATOR

or here

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000622BATOR6

I have the 6 banger, and it is a nice mold.

xacex

[Larry Gibson]

IMR will/should work. The H4895 is smaller kernaled and "throws" more accurately and goes into the smaller .22 cal neck easier. The H4895 is also less temp sensitive and seems to ignite and burn a little more efficiently at the lower cast bullet psi's, especially in 223 ARs.

Larry Gibson

[fish0123]

Thanks for confirming the powder and dies guys! I think I'll purchase that 22 bator mold instead, $18 is tempting!

Also, do you guys think that gas checks are necessary since I am going to be shooting light loads to work in the 1 in 8" twist? If so will the standard Hornady .224" gas checks work?

[Moonie]

Yes they are required for this application, I've always ordered Gator checks from Blammer great guy to work with and the checks work very well.

[fish0123]

Yes they are required for this application, I've always ordered Gator checks from Blammer great guy to work with and the checks work very well.

Thanks moonie!

[xacex]

I sent you a PM this morning. I am currently using aluminum freechex on the Bator bullets.
If you really want to cast for an AR I would suggest putting a 300 blackout barrel on it. You lose velocity shooting 223 because you must slow them down for your twist rate. Shoot cast at 3000 fps out of a 1/9,1/8 or 1/7 and you have a shotgun. The average for 300 blackout with a 1/8 is 2400-2500 fps with a 110 grain bullet. I shoot the lee 155-112 at 1950fps, and that is the same velocity I would shoot a J-word at. If you shoot subsonic bullets like the NOE 247, or the lee 390-230 you don't need a gas check. I find it is cheaper to reload than 223, and a blast with cast. That is why I converted my AR's to 300 blackout. With the 155 grain bullet there isn't any drop that I have noticed out to 150 yards. After hollow-pointing them with the lyman hollow-pointer those pills pop milk jugs of water all day. Trust me, just put the barrel in, it is all you need to do. Midway has them for 200$. Cheap ammo is here for them now http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/2-AACO102860
And you can just cut down 223 cases like I have been doing, or order them from here. Much better thump from a 308, than a 22.
xacex

[fish0123]

Thanks for sharing your experience with the 300 blackout. I would really like to give it a try because I am convinced it is better all around. Unfortunately, I have already purchased all of the dies for .223 and it would really be a pain to exchange everything. It does sound tempting though! The only advantage I can see with the .22 caliber boolits is that a little bit of lead will go a long way, but that's not really a big deal. I don't seem to mind shooting 1000 rounds of 230 grn 45 acp a month though!

I sent you a PM this morning. I am currently using aluminum freechex on the Bator bullets.
If you really want to cast for an AR I would suggest putting a 300 blackout barrel on it. You lose velocity shooting 223 because you must slow them down for your twist rate. Shoot cast at 3000 fps out of a 1/9,1/8 or 1/7 and you have a shotgun. The average for 300 blackout with a 1/8 is 2400-2500 fps with a 110 grain bullet. I shoot the lee 155-112 at 1950fps, and that is the same velocity I would shoot a J-word at. If you shoot subsonic bullets like the NOE 247, or the lee 390-230 you don't need a gas check. I find it is cheaper to reload than 223, and a blast with cast. That is why I converted my AR's to 300 blackout. With the 155 grain bullet there isn't any drop that I have noticed out to 150 yards. After hollow-pointing them with the lyman hollow-pointer those pills pop milk jugs of water all day. Trust me, just put the barrel in, it is all you need to do. Midway has them for 200$. Cheap ammo is here for them now http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/2-AACO102860
And you can just cut down 223 cases like I have been doing, or order them from here. Much better thump from a 308, than a 22.
xacex

[fish0123]

I just had a great idea. I'll order that $18 22 bator mold, if it works great. If it doesn't, a little grinding and Ive got myself a cheap pair of handles for the RCBS mold!

[JIMinPHX]

Shoot cast at 3000 fps out of a 1/9,1/8 or 1/7 and you have a shotgun.

I had the same experience with a 1:12 .223. Accuracy with cast was much better around 2,300fps. 3,000fps was mostly off the paper.

[oldsgm]

A while back I finished a 500 round test of cast bullets in an AR-15. I used the RCBS bullet and WW-748. Here is the link if you are interested. I could not get the 22 bator bullets to function properly in my AR-15.
I also wrote it up in pdf format with more pictures, targets and a much greater discussion of the project. PM and I will email it to you.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=156326

[fish0123]

A while back I finished a 500 round test of cast bullets in an AR-15. I used the RCBS bullet and WW-748. Here is the link if you are interested. I could not get the 22 bator bullets to function properly in my AR-15.
I also wrote it up in pdf format with more pictures, targets and a much greater discussion of the project. PM and I will email it to you.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=156326

Yeah I have been reading your posts on the test you did. It helped me out a lot, thanks. I sent you a pm.

[fish0123]

Just a quick update on my progress. I couldn't get the 22 bator boolits to cycle reliably, plus they are kind of ugly so I went ahead and got the RCBS mold. My tests aren't conclusive yet, but 19.7 grains of IMR 4895 behind the 55 grn RCBS boolit cycled fine and hit a 6" diameter steel plate at 40 yds ( Safety hazzard... I know) I am sizing to .225 and using my secret mystery lube! (50/50 randyrat's lube and NRA... my lubrisizer ran out of NRA so now I changed it out and ive got a nice swirl going on.) So far this looks like it might work. This load passed the rapid fire test and was accurate enough for my needs. I will experiment more this weekend and let you guys know.

Also, the lee 2 cavity boolit mold handles work great with the RCBS mold, I just had to add a small aluminum spacer. Beats paying $39 for handles if you have an old lee mold you aren't using.

[Gunnut 45/454]

I droped using any filler in my 55gr Lyman cast load as it would gum up the AR after 20 rounds or so. Now I just load 18.7 gr IMR4895 and can shoot all day long without problems. Accuracy still good even in my 1:7 twist out to 200 yards.:bigsmyl2:

[fish0123]

I droped using any filler in my 55gr Lyman cast load as it would gum up the AR after 20 rounds or so. Now I just load 18.7 gr IMR4895 and can shoot all day long without problems. Accuracy still good even in my 1:7 twist out to 200 yards.:bigsmyl2:

Thanks for the tip Gunnut! I haven't got around to using filler either. The farthest I have tried with my rifle is 150 yards and it is dead on. Any farther than that and I can't see the target with the iron sights! Obviously our guns are different because it takes about 19.7 grains of IMR4895 to get mine to cycle. After 150 rounds the barrel had a very minor amount of lead in the first 3rd, but it came out with one swipe.

My latest test functioned very accurately as stated but it only cycled about 80% of the time. To be more specific, the casings ejected 100% of the time, but the next round would partially feed, causing the bolt to jam against the casing of the live round. Some times the round would chamber, but get stuck and would be very difficult to clear using the charging handle. I don't think this is a cast boolit issue. It could be caused by too much flaring of the case mouth or too much crimp. The cases were once fired, but never trimmed. The length of the cases was 1.751.

[Larry Gibson]

I droped using any filler in my 55gr Lyman cast load as it would gum up the AR after 20 rounds or so. Now I just load 18.7 gr IMR4895 and can shoot all day long without problems. Accuracy still good even in my 1:7 twist out to 200 yards.:bigsmyl2:

What filler?

Larry Gibson

[Gunnut 45/454]

Larry
Just a tuff of cotton. Seemed to create a bunch of gunk in the cahmber after about 20 rounds then I'd get round that wouldn't chamber all the way - then it would get so bad I'd have to run a bore snake through it. Stopped using the filler and all is good.:D

[Larry Gibson]

I haven't used cotten as a filler in the AR. Gave up on cotton out od .30 cals and my 45-70 Muaser after having to stomp out a couple fires it started in front of the firing line, ruined a good pair of sneakers........I use dacron almost exclusively. I've shot lots and lots of .223s in numerous ARs with 55 - 60 gr cast loaded over 19 gr H4895 with a 1/2 gr dacron filler. Never got any residue to speak of on the cases and perfect functioning for hundreds of shots in a couple w/o cleaning.

Larry Gibson

[David2011]

Be sure you don't try to interchange IMR4895 and H4895 load data. H4895 had produced hotter loads for me.

David

[fish0123]

Be sure you don't try to interchange IMR4895 and H4895 load data. H4895 had produced hotter loads for me.

David

Thanks for the tip David.

I got to shoot the AR again this weekend and didn't have any malfunctions after 130 rounds. I did a couple of stress tests firing 30 rounds in about 10 seconds, man is that fun! I did look down the barrel and didn't see any lead. The issue with rounds getting stuck in the chamber and feeding issues were caused by me not sizing my brass enough. I even tried 30 rounds of 21 grains IMR4895 and it worked great! Thanks for all of the help everyone!

For the record in case anyone wants the information I am using the RCBS 55 grain boolit, gas checked and sized to .225, randyrat's lube and 19.7 grains of IMR4895. My rifle is just an off the shelf S&W mp 15 sport with 1:8 twist.

[xacex]

Lets see some groups! That bator bullet is an fuggly one wasn't it! It is a bullet only a mother could love. Save it for pure lead slugs to do soft points with larger calibers. Glad to hear of the success with the RCBS mold. Sounds like you have a winner.

xacex

[David2011]

The cool thing about H4895 and boolits is that it's ideal for reduced loads. The info is well documented on www.hodgdon.com but the Cliff Notes version is you can download to 60% of their recommended maximum with any load they recommend.

David