Gun Regristration

[sparky45]

I was surprised that when I put together a AR15, that the only part that had to go through a FFL was the LOWER Receiver. Why? How can a weapon be traced that was involved in a shooting, ect. by the Lower?

[alleyoop]

The lower is the only part with a serial number, hence the ffl

[runfiverun]

in this country.
in other places the reciever/bbl are a mated pair.

[Ickisrulz]

I was surprised that when I put together a AR15, that the only part that had to go through a FFL was the LOWER Receiver. Why? How can a weapon be traced that was involved in a shooting, ect. by the Lower?

They aren't supposed to be registered (unless locally like in N. Las Vegas if a pistol). You were approved to buy the lower receiver which is "the firearm."

[darkroommike]

It's the part that makes the device go Boom, hence, in the eyes of ATF, the lower is considered the gun (or destructive device), there are some exceptions, e.g. the Ruger .22 autoloader pistol upper is the part that is tracked, not the lower.

[Mooseman]

Because the AR Lower has the magazine well as part of it, that makes it the receiver.
In the case of CETME's and HK weapons the Magazine well is part of the upper so that is the serial numbered part...Same as with an FN/FAL.

[nvbirdman]

The easy answer is GUN CONTROL DOSEN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

[sparky45]

What most of you are saying is that if my AR15 was used in a shooting and the round was recovered it still couldn't be traced to my AR if I simply changed the BCG and the upper, correct?
P.S. I'm not thinking about a "caper" just curious.

[MtGun44]

In most states, it is NOT registered. It is sold through a Federal Firearms Licensed dealer,
who must have you fill out a 4473 form and get a background check. It is specifically illegal
to create a national central registration of firearms. The 4473s stay at the dealer until he
goes out of business. Then they are sent to ATF and then they put them all into a database,
so they are registered at that point to the original buyer, even though this is illegal, Congress
does nothing. Subsequent sales that are not thru a dealer have no paperwork in most
states. The "gun show loophole" laws that they are trying to pass will make ALL purchases
go through a dealer if they pass.

In any case, the "receiver" of the firearm has the serial number and it "IS" the gun. All the
rest of it are just spare parts, sold with no paperwork. So, if you buy a receiver, you are
buying a gun.

Bill

[Hawkeyed Ridgerunner]

In the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, the PA state police have a complete database of all
firearms registered and refuse to comply with the law to erase them. Nothing is done about it
through the PA assembly.

[sparky45]

[QUOTE=MtGun44;1762943]In most states, it is NOT registered. It is sold through a Federal Firearms Licensed dealer,
who must have you fill out a 4473 form and get a background check. It is specifically illegal
to create a national central registration of firearms. The 4473s stay at the dealer until he
goes out of business. Then they are sent to ATF and then they put them all into a database,
so they are registered at that point to the original buyer, even though this is illegal, Congress
does nothing. Subsequent sales that are not thru a dealer have no paperwork in most
states. The "gun show loophole" laws that they are trying to pass will make ALL purchases
go through a dealer if they pass.

In any case, the "receiver" of the firearm has the serial number and it "IS" the gun. All the
rest of it are just spare parts, sold with no paperwork. So, if you buy a receiver, you are
buying a gun.

Bill

BUT, how would, or do they "track or trace" a weapon suspected in a shooting? Or, is a weapon such as an AR15 a perfect type of weapon to commit a crime since barrel, or entire upper is interchangeable as well as the BCG? I mean, to me it seems "stupid" to have a serial number on a non-trackable part of a gun.
BTW, my brother lives just across the line from you in Lee Summit.

[SciFiJim]

to me it seems "stupid" to have a serial number on a non-trackable part of a gun.

You are right. That's why nvbirdman said, "Gun Control Doesn't Make Any Sense."

Originally the lower was tagged as a gun by someone that didn't know guns, and it stuck. It was too late after having the serial number being added to the lower. If they changed it, it would have to be recognized as two guns because of possibility of having two serial numbers.

[ilcop22]

BUT, how would, or do they "track or trace" a weapon suspected in a shooting? Or, is a weapon such as an AR15 a perfect type of weapon to commit a crime since barrel, or entire upper is interchangeable as well as the BCG? I mean, to me it seems "stupid" to have a serial number on a non-trackable part of a gun.
BTW, my brother lives just across the line from you in Lee Summit.

The extractor and the barrel are what are primarily used to identify a firearm used in a crime. The AR lower is the firearm for reasons already stated in this thread. This is the case for nearly every gun on the market. Barrels are not serialized, nor are parts other than the receiver, generally speaking.

For example, the receiver on a bolt gun is the firearm. The frame on a pistol is the firearm. Essentially the part that receivers the rest of the gun (I.e. the receiver) is the firearm, as classified by the ATF and the various laws governing firearms. Just as you can take the upper off an AR to disassociate the lower with a crime, you can swap out barrels on every other gun just the same without a trace being possible on the firearm (receiver) itself. This is why "microstamping" and serializing ammunition is a big deal for the anti-gunner crowd. They know that the only thing traceable is the receiver (generally), and the receiver doesn't do a damn thing to identify the projectile or casing in a forensic investigation.

It's kind of early in the a.m., so I hope this makes sense. The serialized part - the receiver - is the firearm. It's no different with an AR than it is with a 1911. Some companies/arsenals match serial numbers on other parts, but that's really just pissing in the wind.

[sparky45]

Thanks ilcop22; that's as I suspected, however, you pop two pins and replace an upper with new BCG and viola, totally different firearm with the same serial #. Easy, breezy. Removing a barrel from a revolver is a different matter entirely.
I get it. It's just a stupid way to register a weapon such as a Black Rifle.

[fatelk]

I think we might be talking apples and oranges here.

Are you thinking about "ballistic fingerprinting", where the authorities keep a fired case or bullet from each gun, and the gun is registered to the owner?

This arrangement sounds good in theory: police recover crime evidence in the form of a cartridge case or bullet, compare the unique markings on them to all the samples retained, then go out and just arrest the bad guy. Pipe dream, doesn't work. It's been tried and is a huge waste of time and money. The real world in not like CSI on TV.

What can work is if you already have the suspected weapon, either left at the crime scene or seized from the suspected bad guy. You then compare the evidence directly against a case or slug from the weapon. In which case you already have the gun and where the serial number is located is irrelevant.

In all honesty I am not an expert on this stuff. If someone else has a better understanding, feel free to correct me.


It's just a stupid way to register a weapon such as a Black Rifle
I assume you are in favor of mandatory registration?

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

Thanks ilcop22; that's as I suspected, however, you pop two pins and replace an upper with new BCG and viola, totally different firearm with the same serial #. Easy, breezy. Removing a barrel from a revolver is a different matter entirely.
I get it. It's just a stupid way to register a weapon such as a Black Rifle.

not so , on a JP Sauer you remove the ejector tube screw, remove the ejector tube , and screw out the barrel , screw in the new barrel , Dan Wesson did some thing similar you could even change caliber if you also replaced the cylinder

i can change the barrel on a Glock in 30 seconds with my eyes closed

gun registration does not stop crime , criminals don't register guns , and it is far to easy to change a ballistic finger print with some emery cloth and a wooden dowel that it is a useless waste of time.

The only thing gun registration ever did on any scale was make it easy for a government or occupying force to disarm the people.

half of the gun control ideas they pander , were either developed by an king , a dictator , tyrant , occupying force , or a fascist or some combination of.

we do not register guns , we only have criminal background checks for the purchase of new guns , and that is enough of a compromise anything more is a waste , uncalled for and un-American.


the big money drug criminals can get any weapon they want from whatever small army they bought and paid for.

small time criminals if they had the money for a 800-1000 dollar AR15 wouldn't need to rob you or the gas station for at most a few hundred

[paul h]

Firearms, are not registered perse in this country. There is no way to trace firearms, because balistic fingerprints are not taken of every firearm. Hopefully things remain this way, but there are certainly groups and individuals that wish to further encroach upon our rights.

The sale of firearms is restricted. In the only thing that approaches being practical and sensible in this countries gunlaws, the part of the firearm that has the stamped serial number is considered the firearm. So when you ship that part, that part needs to be shipped to an FFL holder, or the owner of the firearm. Every other part of that gun design is not considered a firearm, and those parts can be purchased w/o an FFL and shipped to non FFL holders.

[Silver Eagle]

The tracing of a firearm by a LEO goes like this (One scenario of many possible):
LEO contacts firearm manufacturer with model and Serial Number.
Manufacturer checks records and finds they sent it to XXX Distributor. Reports same to LEO.
LEO contact Distributor. They check records and find they sent it to XXX Gun Store (FFL). Reports same to LEO.
LEO Contacts store, they look up in "The Book" and find they sold it to Mr. Smith. Reports Same to LEO.
LEO Contacts Mr' Smith. He states it was sold to Mr. Jones (hopefully has receipt).
LEO Contacts Mr. Jones. He reports he has gun. Gun Was stolen (He should have police report). Or, Gun was sold. Or, reports he still has gun in possesion.
If gun was stolen paper trail ends. If they cannot contact next person in trail, paper trail ends. Most of the time the trail turns up cold due to lack of records or gun was stolen.
Otherwise LEO proceeds with investigation in various ways.

If any of the FFL's in the paper trail have gone out of business, they are required to turn over all records to the BATF who then have to look for the correct record for the trail to continue.

Silver Eagle

[sparky45]

I think we might be talking apples and oranges here.

Are you thinking about "ballistic fingerprinting", where the authorities keep a fired case or bullet from each gun, and the gun is registered to the owner?

This arrangement sounds good in theory: police recover crime evidence in the form of a cartridge case or bullet, compare the unique markings on them to all the samples retained, then go out and just arrest the bad guy. Pipe dream, doesn't work. It's been tried and is a huge waste of time and money. The real world in not like CSI on TV.

What can work is if you already have the suspected weapon, either left at the crime scene or seized from the suspected bad guy. You then compare the evidence directly against a case or slug from the weapon. In which case you already have the gun and where the serial number is located is irrelevant.

In all honesty I am not an expert on this stuff. If someone else has a better understanding, feel free to correct me.


I assume you are in favor of mandatory registration?

I don't have any idea how you make that leap, you couldn't be more wrong. In building a AR15 I was amazed that the only part of the gun that was "registered" was the lower, I thought the barrel would be the part of interest. I was a FFL holder for years and I am definately NOT a fan of ANY registration.

[fatelk]

My apologies; I guess that was a poor assumption to make.

I was told long ago that for rifles in general, and high-velocity rifles in particular, forensics is not as useful because the bullet tends to be pretty mangled and harder to compare.

To be honest I've wondered why the lower is the serialized part too, instead of the upper. It's just the opposite on an FAL.

I remember some years ago, reading about some info that was making the rounds among the radical environmentalist/animal rights fringe groups. They were advising their members to snipe and kill farm animals because they were not native species, and encroached on nature or some such nonsense. The thing I remember was that they told them to buy an "unregistered 12 gauge rifle, preferably in 30-06, because it was impossible to trace".:)

[ilcop22]

As I mentioned in my posts, fatelk, there are only two primary ways to identify a gun that fired a projectile and/or ejected a case used in a crime: The barrel and the extractor. This science isn't even foolproof, and is based on subjective analyses.

If a bullet is left intact, they can match the lands and grooves, as well as any other markings left by the rifling to the barrel from which it was fired. Swapping barrels is generally child's play with handguns, and not terrible difficult on rifles.

If a case is left intact, and assuming it was ejected and left on scene, the extractor typically leaves a mark on the case rim from ejection. Thus, the case can be matched to the extractor of a particular firearm. Bolts can be swapped out on nearly every firearm with little to no effort. AFAIK the indent of the firing pin is not typically useful in identification, but may be used (hence the drive for microstamping by the ignorant left).

Again, the firearm is always the receiver - the part to which all other parts are attached. As far as the FAL goes, the "lower" is referred to as the frame, while the "upper" is referred to as the receiver. It doesn't always have to make sense to everyone, but the only thing that always gets stamped is the receiver, a.k.a. the firearm.

[mold maker]

As I mentioned in my posts, fatelk, there are only two primary ways to identify a gun that fired a projectile and/or ejected a case used in a crime: The barrel and the extractor. This science isn't even foolproof, and is based on subjective analyses.

If a bullet is left intact, they can match the lands and grooves, as well as any other markings left by the rifling to the barrel from which it was fired. Swapping barrels is generally child's play with handguns, and not terrible difficult on rifles.

If a case is left intact, and assuming it was ejected and left on scene, the extractor typically leaves a mark on the case rim from ejection. Thus, the case can be matched to the extractor of a particular firearm. Bolts can be swapped out on nearly every firearm with little to no effort. AFAIK the indent of the firing pin is not typically useful in identification, but may be used (hence the drive for microstamping by the ignorant left).

Again, the firearm is always the receiver - the part to which all other parts are attached. As far as the FAL goes, the "lower" is referred to as the frame, while the "upper" is referred to as the receiver. It doesn't always have to make sense to everyone, but the only thing that always gets stamped is the receiver, a.k.a. the firearm.

Would't (range pick up) brass, that has been reloaded, (without tumbling) retain multiple extractor marks? Couldn't buying a second hand barrel expose you to its past history?
To me, this all sounds more like a fishing trip, than science. Their trying to prove in reverse, what they, "think", makes you guilty, without eliminating the innocent.

[David2011]

Would't (range pick up) brass, that has been reloaded, (without tumbling) retain multiple extractor marks? Couldn't buying a second hand barrel expose you to its past history?
To me, this all sounds more like a fishing trip, than science. Their trying to prove in reverse, what they, "think", makes you guilty, without eliminating the innocent.

Mold Maker,

Sounds to me like you understand perfectly. Reloaded range pickup fired through a second hand barrel is not terribly different from the DNA from the blood of multiple people mixed together, except that reloading and gunsmithing are fortunately beyond the skills of most criminals.

David

[ilcop22]

Would't (range pick up) brass, that has been reloaded, (without tumbling) retain multiple extractor marks? Couldn't buying a second hand barrel expose you to its past history?
To me, this all sounds more like a fishing trip, than science. Their trying to prove in reverse, what they, "think", makes you guilty, without eliminating the innocent.

+1 to what David said. You understand completely. I wouldn't put the blame on the investigators, rather, the way media and entertainment have horribly skewed public perception on forensic analyses. CSI, anyone?

Most of the time we're reliant on knowing to whom DNA, casings, bullets, shoe prints, fingerprints, etc. belong. If it ain't in the system, and we don't have a suspect, it's just more data that we'll probably never use. Even if we have the perpetrator in a cell, if that evidence isn't handled properly, it becomes useless.

[MtGun44]

"Ballistic fingerprinting" has just barely enough truth to it to not be total BS but I have seen
it reported that there is not a single case where a gun has been tracked by the case on file
and matching it to a case found at a crime scene. Frankly, I don't hink they even have the
cases in any sort of a database in any way that they can actually be searched, just files of
little envelopes. Useless, done by idiots.

The only thing that has been done is if you have cases at a crime scene, you can sometimes
tell the brand of gun used (Glocks have that silly square firing pin, for example) and if you
recover a particular gun you can see if the firing pin or extractor scratches match. If the
extractor or firing pin have been replaced or stoned a bit, they will not match.

Same with a bullet. Fine markings in the barrel can be compared between two bullets to
see if they were fired from the same barrel. Use an abrasive cleaner and this will not be
possible, or change the bbl.

Gun control schemes are total carp and never slow or stop crime.

Silver Eagle's tracing comments are right on, but in most cases after the first owner it is
a dead end, most people don't know who they sold a gun to.

Bill

[leadman]

A little bit of fire lapping the barrel and a minute with a dremel and polishing wheel and you can change the patterns on the bolt and barrel.
How about a Contender or Encore with the removable breach block?

[shotman]

gun laws are for money all the rest are BS you cant trace a gun if you wanted to . You buy a gun and put it up for sale in local paper. Tell buyer its sold. END of line . By law you dont have to know who you sold it to. AND you dont care. a sig, glock many others you can change barrels and have another gun . Same with a AR extractor can be filed in 2 sec bolt head can be honed in 10 sec so there is no way of telling where the round came from.
What the cops want is a gun still smoking in the hand and thats it
the bad guys are not going to do the change and dont care. Thats what the cops know
most of us are not out to kill people anyway. but if you did you would have a GOOD reason
they have to have some way to say it has a number now. the new S&W guns have 3 on parts inside the gun bet most do too. but if barrel is changed ???? be hard to prove if they had only a bullet