will tin add TOUGNESS without HARDNESS

[John in WI]

I've been spending a lot of time playing around with "split tip" SWCs for my .38. At pretty moderate speeds (around 800FPS) they open up 100% of the time.

I've been casting them from dead soft lead (my wheel weight version didn't work at all) to get them to expand.

Today I fired a bunch into wet-pack phone books at about 10'. And I was a little surprised to find that every split tip opened wide up. But 2 of them lost one of the tips, and two of them lost both tips (leaving a kind of chisel shaped projectile).

Ideally I would like them soft enough to seriously deform under the impact, but hold together well enough that they aren't shedding large fragments.

I know antimony would be a no-no. I don't need something hard for this. But I seem to remember tin contributes to the "toughness" of the alloy. Helping it hold together after serious deformation, but contribute only very little to the overall hardness.

What would you guys recommend for toughening up pure lead? Helping it bend and flow without actually letting the tip rip free?

I'm very encouraged by these loads, but 5 out of 5 of the drilled hollow points I attempted clogged with paper fibers and didn't expand at all! I'm beginning to put a LOT of faith in the split tip really put a thump on something. Every one of them deforms and opens up. If I could just do something to prevent them from actually snapping a tip off on me, it would be perfect performance! And excellent penetration. Through 2 wet milwaukee phone books and recovered in the third.

[btroj]

Tin would work quite well for ypur needs. Antimony would be alright but only in very low percentages. By low I mean 1 percent or so.

I would try 16:1 lead/tin. Would work quite well for your needs.

[MT Chambers]

I agree, any cast bullets that I plan to use on big game, have plenty of lead in them as they expand and hold together better. Linotype and wheelweight bullets tend to fracture as much as expand.

[John in WI]

Here are the slugs i was able to recover from the phone books. On the left are water dropped WW full wadcutters (Lee mold). They didn't deform at all, and the other 4 actually made it through 3 Milwaukee phone book wet packs (about 16")

Upper right are dead soft Lee LSWC with a drilled hollow point. None showed any expansion, penetration about 14"

Bottom Right--Lee LSWC "split tips". The expansion on these was unreal. The two further back lost one half of the tip. The one to the right lost both, and the two bottom ones appear as though the about tore in half and twisted into a huge blob. And penetration was still good--about 12".

My "ideal" load would be if I could get them to open up like the upper two split tips, except hold on to both tips. That would just about double the cross secional area of the boolit on impact, and according to this red-neck ballistics test, should still get a good 12-14" of penetration in phone books.

The test weapon was a Smith and Wesson 64 (4") with Winchester primers and 4.5gr Unique.

Any thoughts on how to better hold the boolits together on impact?

[MBTcustom]

I agree, you need some tin. But the stuff is potent, and expensive, so try boosting it to something conservative like 1.5%-2% or something so that you don't loose that purdy flower effect and you conserve the expensive alloy.

[John in WI]

thanks guys. So my thinking is ok---Tin would not hinder the malleability of the lead, and would help the boolits deform heavily without actually shedding so much?

The photos don't show it very well, but you can literally see stretch marks where the lead split, and I think sometimes it stretches so much if finally gives. So I'm hoping a touch of tin (I'm with you--I was going to start at maybe 1.5%) would toughen the alloy up just a hair. Give it that massive expansion, but be able to keep it from shedding anything.

[220swiftfn]

I'm not surprised that water dropped WW wadcutters didn't deform, they're quench hardened..... If you cast the same and let them air cool, you'd see some deformation. (Air cooled WW winds up @ 11 Bhn, water dropped it's @18 or so...) But if you take those WW's and equalize the tin/antimony you'd have a really good alloy. IIRC, it winds up a little rich at @ 95/2.5/2.5, air cooled it will do anything you want it to. As to your pure lead, I'd give 20:1 a shot (95/5).


Dan

[John in WI]

I wasn't clear--the point of the wadcutters was to look at the penetration of a HARD cast boolit. And it perormed--blasting through 18" of paper, and still going.

I think I will try a little bit of tin and see if I can toughen it up a hair. I'm getting a very good feeling about where this split tip experimentation could lead. My expanions rate so far has been 100%. If I could just tune them to open just enough, but not so much the tip tore off, I think i would be in good shape.

[454gene]

Would Bruce B's sticky on casting soft tip hollow points work in this situation?

[fryboy]

a thing to consider about hollow points ... they work best when used against a fluid ( semi- fluid substance ) ie; they open up alot better when shot into wet fone books than into dry fone books , the hydraulic pressure does make a difference just as it does with hornady's v-max's ( they'll drill a neat hole in some 3/16 steel plate but wont in a p-dog where they explode dramatically )
i have a special alloy i use for 45 h.p.'s , as a bonus it works well for low velocity rounds ( such as the 38 special , 3 parts pure lead and one part ww with enough tin added to help fill out ( more so in the 38's because of all the driving bands , seems the one groove on the 45 doesnt need as much ) usually less than 2%

[fredj338]

I would just move to a HP if you want consistent expansion from any lead alloy bullet. Tin does harden the lead alloy a bit. I haven't tried pure lead but 25-1, 20-1, both work well from 900-1250fps. Below 900fps, I get better reults w/ 25-1.

[John in WI]

Today I'm going to cast some up with pure lead and some soft range scrap. Maybe 2:1. The dead soft clearly is able to deform without any problems at these velocities, so maybe I'm thinking about it a little wrong--if I could actually retard the expansion a bit, the tips might not open to the point where they shear off completely.

I'll do a small test batch of the alloy and see how they perform. Maybe add a touch of solder for mold fillout.

[40Super]

The depth of the split will probably effect how much/fast it opens up also. I've got a copper babbit to add for my hunting hp for some toughness. Another possible alloy.

[John in WI]

the depth of the slit is probably very important for the final expansion. In all of the ones I tested, the slit was down to just a hair in front of the crimp groove. The idea would be that the tip would split all the way down to the body of the boolit.

Maybe having it a little less split would help. Maybe going just from the tip to the base of the cone would be enough to have serious expansion, but stop short of actually ripping the tip in half.

[40Super]

What caliber is this ? I have a 100lb chunk of wax that I shoot into to test bullets.It reacts pretty good as a standin for animal tissue, I could test some of your bullets for you and it would give a good idea of how they will work on game.

I live west of Wausau.

[Ole]

4% tin/96% lead does this:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh280/Ole1830/Bullet%20making/HPranchdogbullet.jpg

at modest .380 velocities into wet phonebooks.

[waksupi]

Ole, that shows me I would not want to depend on that for a defensive round. Sufficient penetration would be problematical. I'd like to see what it does without the hollow point.

[fredj338]

Ole, that shows me I would not want to depend on that for a defensive round. Sufficient penetration would be problematical. I'd like to see what it does without the hollow point.

I wouldn't want any expansion in a 380. In fact, I wouldn't want a 380! With todays subcompact 9mm, no point really. If I did have to carry a 380, flat point solid lead would be the ticket IMO.

[Defcon-One]

4% tin/96% lead does this:

at modest .380 velocities into wet phonebooks.

Ole:

They worry me quite a bit! Please do not shoot them in my direction!

I suspect that they'd do the job regardless. Talk about a perfect mushroom. I give you an A+.