My Ultimate 44-40 load (photos)

[KirkD]

I suppose in some things, I am a perfectionist. I have loads for all the calibers I shoot, but one thing that has bothered me is the extreme spread I get from each of my loads. I have used toilet paper filler for several years in an effort to get more consistent burning by keeping the powder against the primer. Toilet paper, loosely rolled and folded, is less than ideal, as powder can still work its way in between the folds and not get burned.

In the Summer 2011 issue of The Double Gun Journal, Sherman Bell published the results of pressure testing using a variety of fillers. Cream of Wheat and stacked hard felt wads gave the highest pressure increases, while cotton and kapok gave the lowest. Why fillers you ask? Cartridges that were originally designed for black powder will often have a lot of empty space when using smokeless powders. The simple solution is to use black powder but what does a fellow do if he wishes to use smokeless? I have a few rules of thumb, two of the most important of which are:

1. Always stick with original black powder ballistics (same bullet weight and velocity)
2. Always use smokeless powders that have the same or lower peak pressures as black powder (powders with a burn rate slower than Blue Dot)

If a fellow sticks to these two rules, he will get peak pressures and pressure curves that are the same as or lower than black powder peak pressures.

I decided to use cotton as the local fabric store did not have kapok. I bought just under a pound. My quest is to re-do all my loads, this time using cotton filler to reduce E.S. (extreme spread) and reduce group size. My first project was the 44-40. With a little experimentation, I settled on 17.7 grains of 5744 with a pinch of cotton between the powder and the base of the seated bullet, which is an Accurate Mold 205 grain gas check design. The photo below shows a bullet (not yet wiped clean of excess lube), a typical pinch of cotton (just enough to nicely fill the space between the powder and the bullet with about 50% compression of the cotton) and the case.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8144/7469891886_457365f4d0_z.jpg

Twelve rounds over the chronograph showed a muzzle velocity of exactly 1,300 fps with an E.S. of 28 fps and a S.D. of 8 fps.

Range Test

Today, I tried the load out at 100 yards. My rifle is an original Winchester Model 1873, received in the Winchester warehouse on August 1, 1889 and shipped on September 18th, 1889. Here is a photo of the old classic ...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8010/7469902732_9f604139fa_b.jpg

I had loaded up ten rounds but had forgotten that I had left the rear sight set at 150 yards, so the first shot hit just above the paper. I adjusted down one notch and fired my first five rounds. Four of them went into a 2" group at 100 yards, with the fifth shot hitting a bit low. I know exactly why that fifth shot hit low ..... the corners of the rear sight notch are blurry to my 57 year-old eyes and it is very easy to mess up on elevation if one is not very careful. Here is a photo of the target used for the first five shots ....

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7272/7469901014_469ef90e25.jpg

I had four rounds left, so put up a new target and, this time, paid special attention to keeping the same elevation in the blurry rear sight notch. I got a four-shot group of 2 & 1/8" at 100 yards. Here's a photo of the target ....

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7126/7469900786_4d100e11f1.jpg

I'm happy. This load is a keeper. It is accurate (as my old eyes will allow with open iron sights) and it burns consistently, as evidenced by the relatively low E.S. My next project is to develop a cotton filler load for my 38-72, starting next week.

[Marvin S]

Ya got to be tickled pink with that, and beautiful rifle ta boot. I have a 92 in 38 that that thinks its a target rifle, just need to mount my tang sight.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Great stuff, gotta be happy with that.

[Jack Stanley]

My eyes would be very happy to be able to help produce groups like that !! What a neat project and handsome rifle . Congrats and good luck with your next endeavor .

Jack

[smithywess]

I suppose in some things, I am a perfectionist. I have loads for all the calibers I shoot, but one thing that has bothered me is the extreme spread I get from each of my loads. I have used toilet paper filler for several years in an effort to get more consistent burning by keeping the powder against the primer. Toilet paper, loosely rolled and folded, is less than ideal, as powder can still work its way in between the folds and not get burned.

In the Summer 2011 issue of The Double Gun Journal, Sherman Bell published the results of pressure testing using a variety of fillers. Cream of Wheat and stacked hard felt wads gave the highest pressure increases, while cotton and kapok gave the lowest. Why fillers you ask? Cartridges that were originally designed for black powder will often have a lot of empty space when using smokeless powders. The simple solution is to use black powder but what does a fellow do if he wishes to use smokeless? I have a few rules of thumb, two of the most important of which are:

1. Always stick with original black powder ballistics (same bullet weight and velocity)
2. Always use smokeless powders that have the same or lower peak pressures as black powder (powders with a burn rate slower than Blue Dot)

If a fellow sticks to these two rules, he will get peak pressures and pressure curves that are the same as or lower than black powder peak pressures.

I decided to use cotton as the local fabric store did not have kapok. I bought just under a pound. My quest is to re-do all my loads, this time using cotton filler to reduce E.S. (extreme spread) and reduce group size. My first project was the 44-40. With a little experimentation, I settled on 17.7 grains of 5744 with a pinch of cotton between the powder and the base of the seated bullet, which is an Accurate Mold 205 grain gas check design. The photo below shows a bullet (not yet wiped clean of excess lube), a typical pinch of cotton (just enough to nicely fill the space between the powder and the bullet with about 50% compression of the cotton) and the case.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8144/7469891886_457365f4d0_z.jpg

Twelve rounds over the chronograph showed a muzzle velocity of exactly 1,300 fps with an E.S. of 28 fps and a S.D. of 8 fps.

Range Test

Today, I tried the load out at 100 yards. My rifle is an original Winchester Model 1873, received in the Winchester warehouse on August 1, 1889 and shipped on September 18th, 1889. Here is a photo of the old classic ...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8010/7469902732_9f604139fa_b.jpg



Kirk D,

I found your post very interesting. I have been able to duplicate your results, using filler and powders slower than Blue Dot., in two different .44-40's and two different .40-65's and I'm working on a .38-40. I take absolutely no credit for obtaining this wonderful accuracy in that I have followed and learned an enormous amount about the principles from yourself, Larry Gibson and 30 WCF (aka John K). So much have I enjoyed what you fellows have to say that I have, in this computer, a library of your advice. And all this over iron sights (original) in antique Marlins, none of which come close to your and John's beautiful Model 1873's. And with eyes even a lot older than yours at 72 years !! My range distances have been a little shorter at 80 yards. It's my belief that the main problem in these old rifles is that their groove diameters are usually much larger than it is possible to cast a bullet for and still get it to chamber. In my .44-40's and .40.65's in order to chamber a cast bullet one or two thousandths of an inch over groove diameter and still get the cartridge to chamber I have reamed the rifles' throats a trifle. Certainly in the .44-40 this may be a little overkill for even when the bullet is a little under groove diameter I have been able to duplicate Dave Scoville's advice to include a compressible filler such as polyethylene shot buffer over the powder. This evidently acts as a flexible gas check and prevents hot powder gases burning up the sides of the bullet (leading and inaccuracy). With a bullet at one thousandths over groove diameter and without filler this is what I got in a .44-40....

http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/smithywess/002-2.jpg

The group is very large, and on another target one shot missed the paper and keyholing has also been evident. When I added a compressible amount of polyethylene shot buffer the groups simply got much smaller using the same charge. Clearly there was an increase in pressure for the speed increased to 1600 f.p.s or thereabouts....

http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/smithywess/003.jpg


http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/smithywess/004.jpg


And here is the sad comparison to your fine rifle from which these groups were made, a Marlin Model 1889 made in 1890.......

http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/smithywess/27-b-Right.jpg




In my .40-65's I have used I.M.R. 4198 which fills the case to only about 40% of it's capacity and instead of toilet paper, as you used, I went with a case filling, compressible, amount of polyester pillow filling( dacron). I don't have a photo of the group it made but it was under an inch at 80 yards (5 shots) and repeatable. Because I have been waiting forever to get my hands on a .38-40 (has to be a Marlin I'm afraid) I obtained a barrel and have switched out the .44-40 for the .38-40 with a view to repeating the experiment. My 1889 Marlin is the cheap man's version of a takedown with two barrels !! I can switch barrels over a few minutes but not if conducting a defence of my covered wagon !!

It was Remington 35 from Marlin Owners who cautioned using Polyethylene Shot Buffer in bottleneck cases for fear of the mass 'congealing' over time and being unable to exit the case at the crucial moment. I don't know if you hold with this? He also felt it unwise even in straight wall cases where the density of loaded powder was less than 50% and this is the reason I used dacron in my .40-65. I may say that when I fired these dacron filled cases to obtain my very tight grouping the filler didn't burn up or melt because I saw it exit the barrel like a butterfly in the wind long after the bullet had gone !!

Once again I have to thank you guys ( Yourself, Scoville, Gibson, John K, and 35 Remington) for these wonderful words of wisdom. My reaming of my chamber throats to get bullets greater than groove diameter to chamber I might confess might seem a little anal, but there we are !! I plan to follow your pathway in redoing the loads in all my vintage Marlins of which I now have 12. I am convinced in your advice that we should stick to blackpowder speeds if possible and not use faster powders than Blue Dot. The nonsense I hear about fillers causing ringed chambers I believe is principally because folk don't adhere to the principle of completely filling the case and using relatively slow powders. Doing so certainly eliminates the incongruences associated with powder sensitivity in smokeless loads.

thanks again.

[KirkD]

Excellent post, Smithywess. It is very encouraging to see the kind of shooting accuracy you are getting with 72 year-old eyes. It give me hope for when I am that age. I love shooting iron sights. Your experience and targets are a classic illustration of what the proper filler can do.

That is a fine old Marlin you have there. I love the look of an old levergun that has earned its keep back in the day of the old timers. I don't see any problem with using dacron or cotton in the 40-65. It is not what I would call a bottle neck case. As you mentioned, cotton or dacron should only be used with medium to slow burning powders. When I pull the trigger, there is a few fluffy bits of cotton floating down range.

Good luck on your hunt for a 38-40 Marlin. I had a beautiful little Marlin Model 1894 38-40 saddle ring carbine in almost as nice of condition as my '73. Alas, I had to sell it to get the $$ to purchase this '73.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I concentrated on the target first visit and didn't notice what a nice rifle it was.

The groups fromthe Marlin are excellent as well.

[smithywess]

I don't see any problem with using dacron or cotton in the 40-65. It is not what I would call a bottle neck case. As you mentioned, cotton or dacron should only be used with medium to slow burning powders. When I pull the trigger, there is a few fluffy bits of cotton floating down range..


I wondered if you might find these results with the .40-65 W. interesting. The powder used was I.M.R. 4198 in increments of 22.0 grains to 25.0 grains fired from a Model 1895 Marlin with a 28"barrel which left the factory in 1895 and whose barrel slugged to .409". The bullet I used was a R.C.B.S. flatnose/flatbase 300 grainer sized to .410" and cast from wheelweights with some tin added and water quenched to give a Brinell hardness of 15.2...........


http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/smithywess/001-3.jpg

http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/smithywess/002-3.jpg

As you can see the groups are quite wide. The distance was about 80 yards. The next two targets are with 23.0 grains of I.M.R.4198 but fillered with a compressed load of dacron under the bullet. The speed was 1400 f.p.s. and the exteme spread was quite small......

http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/smithywess/003-1.jpg

http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp38/smithywess/004-1.jpg

thanks.

[KirkD]

Nice work with your 40-65. The comparison between the different loads and dacron and no dacron is very informative. That last group, especially, is a beautiful tight group.

[ajjohns]

So, Kirk D, when you're doing this are you crimping the bullet? Wasn't sure that the one you're using has the groove. Or by filling the case like this does it hold it up like Black powder? You have fine groups and a fine rifle! Looks fun!

[KirkD]

So, Kirk D, when you're doing this are you crimping the bullet? Wasn't sure that the one you're using has the groove. Or by filling the case like this does it hold it up like Black powder? You have fine groups and a fine rifle! Looks fun!

I am crimping on the forward driving ring using a Lee Factory Crimp die. The cotton filler is not sufficient to keep the bullet from being shoved into the neck. The cotton is only compressed to about half it's normal fluff.

[smithywess]

I am crimping on the forward driving ring using a Lee Factory Crimp die. The cotton filler is not sufficient to keep the bullet from being shoved into the neck. The cotton is only compressed to about half it's normal fluff.

If, however, one loads a bullet very close or greater than groove diameter ( with light chamber throat reaming if necessary) there is sufficient neck tension to prevent the bullet being shoved back into the case by anything short of a seating die and the crimp over the front driving band stops the bullet advancing under recoil,

thanks.

[Larry Gibson]

Cotton as a filler does work very well. I went along blissfully using it many years ago without problems until the late summer when the grass was dry. Spent a bit of "hopping" stomping out a fire in front of the firing line at the local range (Four Corners Rod & Gun Club, Salem, Oregon). Thought it was an anomoly until the second fire a few shots later. I was using cotton as a filler in 45-70 cases loaded with 4759. Ruined a good pair of tennis shoes........

Switched to dacron as it doesn't burn and have never had the problem since. Dacron works every bit as good as cotton, perhaps better.

Larry Gibson

[KirkD]

Good to know, Larry.

[hightime]

Wow, didn't think of that. It's not much of a problem here in MN. Thanks again Kirk. Things are looking up. Now I'll try some simular thinking with the 45 colt.

Owen

[Four Fingers of Death]

Cotton as a filler does work very well. I went along blissfully using it many years ago without problems until the late summer when the grass was dry. Spent a bit of "hopping" stomping out a fire in front of the firing line at the local range (Four Corners Rod & Gun Club, Salem, Oregon). Thought it was an anomoly until the second fire a few shots later. I was using cotton as a filler in 45-70 cases loaded with 4759. Ruined a good pair of tennis shoes........

Switched to dacron as it doesn't burn and have never had the problem since. Dacron works every bit as good as cotton, perhaps better.

Larry Gibson

Did your rain dance work? HaHa!

[KirkD]

It's normally not a problem where I live either, but it has been dadgummed dry recently. We badly need rain.

[hightime]

Anyone who needs it can come to Northern MN. and get a load of soggy.

Owen

[ajjohns]

Thanks for the reply. I was wondering how you were doing it. I'm having a heck of a time getting the barrel cleaned up on my 73 Winchester project, hoping to get some loads made for it for this fall. I don't think this thing was ever cleaned! And yes hightime, you guys are wetter than ever. I thought we usually got all the rain up by the border, I've never saw it like you guys have had it since we flooded ten years ago.

[KirkD]

ajjohns, for badly leaded or cruded barrels, I use a tuft of extra fine steel wool and scrub it back and forth in the bore. It will absolutely not damage your bore, but it sure will help getting the lead out.

[ajjohns]

Hey thank you. I have some to use from my gun stock finishing. I honestly have never tried to clean one this bad, it just won't come out after hours of trying brushing and soaking patches. Just keeps coming out real green. And still looks horrible with a lot of raised spots in both lands and grooves. It really doesn't look so pitted, just really really fouled. I was about to try plugging the breach end and fill it up to the bore with benchrest Hoppes and let it sit over night. It'll get better, it's gotta before the fall so it can hit the woods! Thank you.

[KirkD]

You might want to soak it overnight in turpentine, then take the steel wool to the bore the next day. Turpentine has a way of working its way under the fouling. Diesel fuel might work as well, though I've not tried it in a bore. I just know from years on the farm that diesel made a great penetrating oil.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'd be careful using Hoppe's Benchrest to soak a barrel for more than 10-20 mins. Same goes for Sweet's 7.62 or similar products. Just too tough and liable to do damage. The best thing I ever saw for soaking was Robler Klever. It was a Ballistol product. I haven't seen it since the mid 80's.

The diesel or Turpentine would work, cheaper than gun stuff as well.

[ajjohns]

Ok, well I guess I was just going off the description I read in a catalog on the benchrest stuff letting it soak over night if needed. In my other rifles I've never had this problem. But I've always kept up on the the cleaning chores, and I guess the previous owners of my old ones did too. I have diesel, no problem to use it. I'll try it and keep on it and see if I can turn it around. I don't want to turn this thread into my cleaning - but thanks for the input! I really like seeing the guns you guys are using and seeing the loads you make for them. I have only heard my WW2 veteran Dad talk about all the lead loads of the past, he taught me all my reloading years ago. We just usually always used jacketed pills. You guys are really fun to learn from and read. Thanks - and I'll let you know if this oldie becomes a goodie.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Ok, well I guess I was just going off the description I read in a catalog on the benchrest stuff letting it soak over night if needed. In my other rifles I've never had this problem. But I've always kept up on the the cleaning chores, and I guess the previous owners of my old ones did too. I have diesel, no problem to use it. I'll try it and keep on it and see if I can turn it around. I don't want to turn this thread into my cleaning - but thanks for the input! I really like seeing the guns you guys are using and seeing the loads you make for them. I have only heard my WW2 veteran Dad talk about all the lead loads of the past, he taught me all my reloading years ago. We just usually always used jacketed pills. You guys are really fun to learn from and read. Thanks - and I'll let you know if this oldie becomes a goodie.

Maybe I'm giving you a bum steer with the Hoppe's Benchrest, but I knew Jim Sweet who started Sweet's 7.62 and he always said to make sure it didn't stay in the barrel for longer than 20mins or so. My memory of Hoppe's Benchrest is that it actually seemed more pungent than Sweet's so I though that the same rules would apply.

[405]

Agree about the caution when using any ammonia based copper eater. I wouldn't hesitate to plug and fill a bore with regular Hoppe's #9 or Kroil or kersosene or turp., etc. then leave it overnight. The high ammonia stuff will eat copper but may keep on eating. I use Sweet's for really stubborn fouling but only leave it in a few minutes.

All that labor and time gets old when dealing with copper fouling. Most times I much prefer to shoot a good, accurate cast bullet load. The cleaning is sooo much easier. 2-3 patches with Hoppes #9, followed by a couple of dry patches, followed by an oiled patch- done.

[SgtDog0311]

Great posts here... KirkD and Smithy, always enjoy reading your stuff and I've seen enough of the others mentioned here to know they are top notch. Green Lizzard has made a dacron user out of me but really enjoy seeing it so clearly illustrated.

Smithy, long time no talk!!

[Outpost75]

With proper bullets which fit, using alloy of appropriate hardness for the pressure level, you can get very good results with the fast-burning pistol or shotgun powders.

I use the Accurate 43-200Q heeled bullet, sizing its enlarged nose to .430 diameter to fit my Marlin 1894S .44-40 rifle from the 1993 run, which has a Microgroove barrel. The bullet shank has a reversed taper with .425 base band and .427 mid-band. This permits sizing the nose to fit old worn barrels with large groove diameters without the necks of loaded rounds interfering with tight-necked chambers. Bullets can be hand-started with the fingers in a sized, unexpanded case, and seated simply by pushing the nose against a table edge until the bullet stops against the enlarged nose flange. Then they are crimped using the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

My hunting bullets are cast soft, 1:30 tin/lead alloy from Roto Metals and lubed with Lee Liquid Alox. Air cooled wheelweights are also good, but I recommend no harder than 12 BHN. Two loads which work well for me are either 7.2 grains of Bullseye, or 7.8 grains of Red Dot.

No wads or filler of any kind are used. The 7.2 grain Bullseye load chronographed 1270 fps from a 20" barrel, similar to original blackpowder loads with a standard deviation of 8 fps over a 10-shot string and an extreme spread of 22 fps. The 7.8 grain Red Dot load chronographed 1248 fps with a standard deviation of 13 fps, also over a ten-shot string with an extreme spread of 31 fps. These loads are extremely uniform and require NO FILLER. Either load will average 2" over a continuous series of five TEN-SHOT groups fired off sandbags using iron sights at 50 yards. The pictures don't lie. Here is a series of five 50 yard TEN-shot groups with the Bullseye load.

.44-40 Team testers on the Marlin forum have gotten good results in original blackpowder rifles having worn bores, using either unsized or appropriately sized bullets in groove diameters as large as .441".
the thread here: http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/team-44-40/150611-accurate-43-200q.html

116515

Here is the bullet: 116516116517

This is my plain vanilla Microgroove barreled rifle: 116518

[SgtDog0311]

Outpost75, Nice shooting and good work done there no doubt. I shoot a handful of hyphens but only just started on the 44-40.

[3leggedturtle]

Kirk: great pics and info as usual. Cant believe i didnt see this post till now.

[KirkD]

The excellent work and shooting done by Outpost75 is in an area that I haven't done much in. The main reason is that fast powders use small charges and I like a charge that is obvious if it is double charged. That being said, there are real advantages for the fast powders like Bullseye. First, the can of powder lasts longer. Second, you don't need any filler to get complete burning (in fact, I would never use filler with powders faster than 2400). Third, they give a very sharp peak pressure which is particular good at obdurating the cast bullet to fill the throat. That, in turn, gives better accuracy. The only possible disadvantage that I can think of is that it is easier to overload a cartridge if one ever gets a bit sloppy.

[Outpost75]

If you want assurance against double charging in the .44-40 use Red Dot! The RCBS Little Dandy rotor #19 which meters the correct 7.8 grain charge of Red Dot to approximate black powder velocity with a 200-grain lead bullet is the same one which throws 15.4 grains of Alliant #2400, which is also a good .44-40 load, but the advantage being that Red Dot is bulky enough that a double charge will overflow the case and be obvious!

As FYI, for loading with your Ideal tong tool in the field, a black powder flask with tube that measures 20 grains of 3Fg black powder has the same volume as the Little Dandy rotor #19 and will also dispense 7.8 grains of Red Dot or 15.4 grains of Alliant #2400, which facilitiates useful cast bullet loads in alot of calibers. It is absolutely necessary that you verify what your flask measures with a scale and then clearly mark it as to contents when using smokeless in it so avoid any confusion.

My Red Dot flask is spray painted bright RED!

[Ragnarok]

I just got into the .44-40 earlier this year with a older Rossi carbine and a even older Winchester sporting rifle. Both needed just a bit of work(dented mag-tubes).

Anyhow...Both shoot quite decent with cowboy ammo....and I have reloading dies...brass and some purchased lead bullets. Just have not got around to finding a bullet mold and making ammo. I would use the Hornady 200gr bullets I bought except they are small!!...Box says .427...micrometer say's .424/.423 or less...well maybe they will bump-up...or maybe I will buy a mold.

[Outpost75]

Accurate 43-200Q

[Four Fingers of Death]

Wrap them in cigarette paper then smear with a bit of lube maybe.

[35 shooter]

Wow! Just found this thread. Enjoyed reading it very much and now find myself wanting a 73 more than ever. Lots of good tips on the fillers and loads and some very fine groups fired over iron sights. Some fine looking rifles being displayed too!

[w30wcf]

I just got into the .44-40 earlier this year with a older Rossi carbine and a even older Winchester sporting rifle. Both needed just a bit of work(dented mag-tubes).

Anyhow...Both shoot quite decent with cowboy ammo....and I have reloading dies...brass and some purchased lead bullets. Just have not got around to finding a bullet mold and making ammo. I would use the Hornady 200gr bullets I bought except they are small!!...Box says .427...micrometer say's .424/.423 or less...well maybe they will bump-up...or maybe I will buy a mold.

Awhile back I purchased a couple of the 200 count boxes of the Hornady swaged 200 gr. "smaller" bullets. After testing with some faster burning powders, I found that 6.5 grs of Trail Boss worked the best, giving 10 shot groups under 1" @ 25 yards. :mrgreen:

Trail Boss has a pressure rise faster than b.p. and bumped up the undersized 7 BHN bullet to fit the barrel and thus shoot accurately.

w30wcf