45-70 handi rifle excitement!

[DrCaveman]

I know that several threads touch upon this subject, but I wanted to start one directly in line with my situation in the hopes that answers would be more applicable.

I have a handi rifle 45-70 on order, due to arrive shortly. The mould I have chosen is the lee 405-f mould for now. Will probably buy more/different sizes and shapes but this should get me started into the world of 45-70.

Powders on hand include Rx7, varget, imr4227, 2400, unique, trail boss, h4350. There are more but these seem like the useful ones for this cartridge.

Question: does this gun fall more into the 'marlin' category or the 'ruger'? I have heard mixed reports about its strength and ability to soak up recoil, I would appreciate as much feedback as possible.

Next, any load recc's using this boolit and one of these powders? The manuals show unique, rx7, and varget, but I would appreciate any first person testimonials.

Bottom line is that I am very excited, and unfortunately neither my lady nor my friends share this excitement. Maybe some of you will.

[bubba.50]

for smokeless loads in my buffalo classic i use 4759 and 5744 behind the lee 340gr lubed with spg type lube with excellent results. i only load to about blackpowder velocities. not 'cause the gun won't take, just see no need for more. but usin' my brother's 2000fps loads with 405gr boolits like to tore my arm off. and the buff classic is a couple lbs heavier than the handi-rifle version.

for probably better luck findin' the info yer lookin' for ya should sign up over at graybeard outdoors. they have a whole big h & r/nef section and lots of fellers more than willin' to tell ya more about a handi-rifle than ya ever wanted to know.

luck & have a good'en friend, bubba.

[DrCaveman]

Thanks bubba, I have heard the tip about graybeard before but I haven't signed up with that club yet. If so many cast boolit fellows recommend it, must be good.

Also, thanks for the tip about the recoil. I may get a sissy pad, or just be ready for it when I am loading stout. But god dang, no matter how ready I was, turkey loads in my pardner 12 gauge still made my shoulder purple.

[oldred]

I see you listed Trail Boss as an available powder but it performs really poorly in those big 45/70 cases, basically you get no more than "pop" gun velocities with surprisingly high pressures for the velocity (or lack of) achieved. Check out Hodgdons site and compare TB with some other powders, some produce nearly twice the velocity for the same pressures which means in these big cases TB must be spiking quite high.

[geargnasher]

The rifle will break your shoulder before you break it with pressure. It will stomp the bejezzus out of you even with mild loads. Enjoy!

Gear

[DrCaveman]

Gear, thanks for the honesty. I would be lying if I said I didnt like a solid punch to the shoulder occasionally, so my excitement grows even more.

Lets me know that I am alive, without endangering that status!

Aww I am missing my yearly dose of early summer Texas heat this year. Things change, but I hope hill country is doing well without me.

[wgr]

Gear, thanks for the honesty. I would be lying if I said I didnt like a solid punch to the shoulder occasionally, so my excitement grows even more.

Lets me know that I am alive, without endangering that status!

Aww I am missing my yearly dose of early summer Texas heat this year. Things change, but I hope hill country is doing well without me.

well load up some of them 405 to about mid marlin levels and youll get your wish.are you can go to low to middle ruger loads that will give new meaning to wake up call

[olafhardt]

I have a handi in 500 s&w. The head diameter and SAAMI pressures of this cartridge both exeed the highest 45/70 even in heavy loads. Also some of the guys are shooting huge boolits out of it.

[161]

I have a BC, it's fun to shoot off hand or sitting using sticks. From the bench is another story all together. I run marlin data with 405s and trapdoor data with 500 gr. Using Reloader #7. I loaded two rnds at Ruger levels. barrel unlocked on both. Due to my training and experience I ascertained that was a bad thing.:shock:

[Sgt Red Leg]

I have used 30 grs of 5744 in my Shilo Sharps and my 1886 Winchester with great results. I think you would have been happier w/a heavier rifle, but hay, what ever floats your boat right? Being a bit of an odd ball in my fire arms selections (.25-20,.25-36, .44 Russian, .41 mag etc) I understand 'different stuff'. The single shots are fun to shoot. Having the additional historical link makes ithem even more fun (Funner?)!

[texbiker]

i shoot a h&r bc classic in 45/70. i load paper patched 475grain bullets with 5744 to black powder velocities. works great on deer and hogs. big hole no bloodshot meat. recoils like a 20 gauge shot gun

[largom]

I have a TC Encore in 45-70. Believe what Gear said. Those light guns will make your eyes cross and your jeans wet if loaded to high levels. Varget and RL7 works well in all of my 45-70's.

Larry

[nanuk]

Light weight 45/70's keep my sinus' clear...

[giz189]

DrCaveman, I have one of those H & R Toppers in that caliber with a fairly short barrel. I have shot 405 grain Jacketed bullets and 420 gr cast bboolits with 53 grains of IMR3031. Rifle held up fine, I didn't. As for the recoil pad, goahead and get one. If you get the screw on kind,, get the Limbsavers brand. They work nicely. Or you can get one of the slip on kind. I would suggest getting one whatever range you load to. Those little rifles are light. But fun.

[Dakoma]

Just bought one of the Handi 45-70 rifles not the clasic, and will load with the IMR powders I have 3031,4064,and 4895.These are the rifle powders I load with for everything I have.Got a Lyman 457191=292gr and 2 Lee 405gr moulds one hollowbase and one Lee 500gr that I may try,once anyway.Mounted a Tacso Bantam scope for shotgun slugs and Black powder rifles got 5-6 inches of eye relief and is 2.5x20,has the little circle around the crosshairs in the center that I like.The iron sights can be used by pulling the scope off but the front sight is kind of thick and hard for my old eyes to get a good sight picture real fast,box of ammo came with the deal 4 missing and rifle looks new they are Win.300grJHP and believe that was all that was shot through this rifle $200.00 and come with a nice leather sling,no scope mount but I had one and a scope. Plan to enjoy Hog hunting !

[Tracy]

I have a .45/70 Handi-Rifle and I use the same Lee 405 grain bullet you have, over 26 grains of 2400. That's not a recommendation, just a report of what I do.
I think those rifles will handle the Marlin loads, but I don't think I would want to load it to Ruger No. 1 levels. Not that I don't think it would handle it; I just doubt it would last long under continued use with those loads.

[725]

Mind numbingly hot loads will shake the gun loose over time. Thing is it's not really needed. Trap door level loads will do it all. Almost exterminated the buffalo. I shoot 40 gr of 3031 to push a 415 boolit. It's evil out front and easy on the shoulder. Best advice repeated here. Stat low and work up. Load from a good manual and forget the notion that you know more than the techies at the powder companies. That gun is a treasure and will last generations if you take care of it. Have fun. Black and blue shoulder or detached retinas don't work for me. I only shoot my .458 Lott for meat.

[gandydancer]

Thanks bubba, I have heard the tip about graybeard before but I haven't signed up with that club yet. If so many cast boolit fellows recommend it, must be good.

Also, thanks for the tip about the recoil. I may get a sissy pad, or just be ready for it when I am loading stout. But god dang, no matter how ready I was, turkey loads in my pardner 12 gauge still made my shoulder purple.
Have H & R fit a shotgun butt stock to it. That crescent butt stock will beat you to death.

[DrCaveman]

725, thanks for that. I'm planning to start with some trapdoor loads, and see how the gun (and my shoulder) like it.

My figuring on buying the gun was that I could get a few thousand pounds of muzzle energy without having to hotrod it too much, nor push the limits of the gun. When I started asking people about hot 357 loads, they said 'get a bigger gun'. Now I am about to own the bigger gun, and they're saying 'load it light'. Can't win, it seems, unless I buy another $800 rifle. That is not my MO, I am not a gun dealer or made of money.

I got into this hobby because I like shooting, being in the outdoors, and self sustenance. Also, the typical amount of money required for this hobby is in my ballpark, unlike that needed for collectors of cars or yachts.

Anyway, I have read enough different solutions to the recoil issue to remain optimistic about my experience. At the end of the day, I would rather have a bruised shoulder than exploded gun shrapnel in my head & chest.

Thanks everybody.

[DrCaveman]

Gandydancer, can you elaborate? The gun I (think I) bought has the same looking wooden stock as all my h&r shotguns. What is the difference exactly?

[Junior1942]

Take off the butt plate and fill the cavity with lead shot. That'll knock a lot off the recoil. My Handi 32" and 20" 45-70 barrels like the Lee 450FP and don't like the Lee 405FP. For a return to yesteryear experience, load a slightly compressed load of Pyrodex RS and top it with a wax/lard cookie or a wax/lard lubed felt wad betwixt powder & bullet. V = ~1150 fps. Accuracy in both my barrels = 1.5MOA with peep sights.

If you have some surplus WC860 substitute it for the Pyrodex RS and use a heavy crimp. I get the same V and same accuracy with much less case and barrel cleaning. It's all I shoot now.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Drcaveman,

I don't have a brake open 45/70 and won't. Personal thing I know!

However, you really need to rethink your, " -----few thousand pounds of muzzle energy -----" direction!

With cast boolits, what you need is a cast boolit of proven game taking ability at something in the mid 1000 - 2000fps range.

Choose a boolit in the over 400gr weight with a Wide Flat Nose (WFN) and cast of a good alloy and you will do just fine.

A 465gr boolit at 1600 - 1700fps from my RUGER #1 is simply AWESOME in the game taking department. My bigest critter so far - not counting the barnyard put down of a buffalo - is a very large cow elk.

As said, that 465gr WFN boolit is awesome on game.

As per recoil, the stock shape and butt will have a lot to do with how it feels. I tried shooting my RUGER with the iron sights, and because of the low head position, it was VERY painful. :groner: :groner:

Not so with the scope and the higher head position.

Stocks with excessive drop at the heal are many times painful.

Time will tell just how much recoil you want.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Tatume]

Hi Crusty and Caveman,

You can have 2000 fp energy by loading a 400 gr bullet to 1500 fps. That's not a "few thousand pounds," but it's a brace of thousand pounds. :-)

With that 465 gr bullet you can get 2000 fp energy with only 1400 fps.

Either load with a wide flat nosed bullet will kill anything on this continent like it was struck by lightning!

Take care, Tom

[725]

DrCaveman,
Hope your search is going well. To add to my comments, I don't think you'll find that you sacrificed anything by "light" loading the .45-70. Trapdoor loads and up make it an awesome performer. To mitigate recoil, I have installed a mercury recoil dampener in the through bolt hole under the recoil pad. Simply unscrew the pad, install the tube (per instruction) and reinstall the pad. Turns the heavier loads into ***** cats. Brownell's has some. Measure the diameter of the hole and talk to the rep. If you need any help or have questions, PM me and I can give you the benefit of my limited experiences.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yep, what Tom says!

Before starting down the cast boolits in the 45/70 route, I did a lot of reading and then I guess by faith in what I read, bought into the program.

Being an Ol' "J" bullet shooter of long standing, I guess it takes a big does of faith in others to truely believe in the effectiveness of WFN cast boolits.

However, now that I have seen, first hand the results, I would agree with Tom when he indicates that these loads will effectively kill anything in North America and I'd say most of the other critters on this globe as well.

CDOC

[fcvan]

I don't have a 45-70 but do have the H&R Classic Carbine in .45 Colt. 20" barrel, crescent steel butt plate. Stout loads with a 310 gr boolit knocked the snot out of me and gave me bruises! I can order the 32" barrel in 45-70 which would add weight and tame it down somewhat. I have handled the Buffalo Classic and did appreciate it's heft.

I have seen a lace on leather recoil pad that looped a strap to the barrel. I have seen them on old Hawken style front loaders which made it look kind of 'period' I suppose. Maybe such an article wouldn't be a bad idea if I decide to order the 45-70 barrel. Frank

[wgr]

if that rifle is like most of them it will like a boolet sized to .460/.461. that lee mold will most likely be good as cast. you should slug the bore any way to make sure. i loaded mine with some surplus powder to about 1000 fps and it was a pleasure to shoot .and flat stomped a whitetail at 125 yards

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

In my old and weakened condition (69) I really like and enjoy the short and light configuration of my RUGER #1S.

Two surgerys on the left shoulder doesn't help much, but it is better then if there had been NO surgery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That short action and 22" barrel are a delight to carry and use.

I could not begin to use and hold up one of the long barreled rifles such as that found on the Buffalo Classic, and I question adding weight to the butt because of what it does to balance of the rifle.

There is a lot to be said for proper stock design and head position as I have already indicated.

Sooo, possibly a add on cheek pad would do away with some of that excessive drop and make the rifle more shootable.

Beat'in the same dog again, but with the proper boolit there is no need to push the velocity levels with a .45 caliber boolit.

CDOC

[Texantothecore]

a 405 grn bullet going at 1550 fps will penetrate a male buffalo and can be found on the inside of the skin on the opposite side of the bull. You can load the .45-70 to much lighter loads and drop a deer on the spot.

1370 Fps is the standard Fps for the black powder round and it will kill anything on the North American continent.

Think of your new .45-70 as artillery, not a rifle.

[nanuk]

I took possession of an NEF "Handi" rifle recently

barrel has been shortened to 18.25" and a scope added. I"m going to remove the big ugly one and put a nice trim 2.5x fixed on it, so it can sit a bit forward.

this one for SURE has microgroove rifleing, as you can barely see them but was shortened on a lathe, and was well done.

as it sits with wooden furniture, it balances perfect with a hand around the receiver.

I KNOW I'll be wiping snot off the stock on this one but DANG, does it look good!

[Junior1942]

I took possession of an NEF "Handi" rifle recently

barrel has been shortened to 18.25" and a scope added. I"m going to remove the big ugly one and put a nice trim 2.5x fixed on it, so it can sit a bit forward.

this one for SURE has microgroove rifleing, as you can barely see them but was shortened on a lathe, and was well done.

as it sits with wooden furniture, it balances perfect with a hand around the receiver.

I KNOW I'll be wiping snot off the stock on this one but DANG, does it look good!You have a thicket-huntin' marvel!!!!

[dualsport]

The Lee 405 is too small for my Handi, leads up the bore. Accuracy goes bad quick. The big 500 grainer they offer casts a little bigger, no leading but what a bruiser. I like the Lee 500 down around 1100 fps or so. Still kicks hard. It'd probably stop a train. I finally got around to the Ranch Dog 350, it's what you'll want for accuracy. Made for a Marlin but fits the H&R chamber very nicely. Close fit in the throat is the ticket. IMHO. Have fun with your new gun. The Handi 45-70 is a ball to play with, from round balls to Howitzer in a little carbine! I take mine for a ride on an old Honda Goldwing, fits in the trunk! Next you gotta get the .22 Hornet barrel, has sights and is now 9" twist. Yee-haw!

[DrCaveman]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_2269950058b4d7879e.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5928)

After waiting very patiently for an opportunity to shoot this thing, I finally got it last night. Unfortunately no time to load up my own cast boolits, but I shot some factory jacketed claiming 2050 fps @ 325 gr weight.

Yeah, she's a thumper! I may have a new favorite rifle. Or at least a new tie for my favorite 10 guns.

No groups worth photographing, as it took me a few shots to figure out the iron sights. As set, the front blade seems to want to align with the horizontal plane created by the top edges of the rear sight. Not the bottom of the V as I am used to with my Marlin 336 for example. But once I adjusted, this thing printed pretty nice. And it is very hard to believe that anything would walk away from that hit, even if I miss my mark by a few inches.

The factory stock pad seems pretty effective to me. I am thinking of this gun like a donut that a batter puts on his bat when on deck. My 30-30 was an absolute pusssycat after this. And the pistols seemed like toys.

I would rate the recoil somewhere between my H&R Pardner 12 gauge and my Tikka 30-06. Nothing a little snug grip cant take care of. But if I forget to grip hard, or slack at the wrong moment, then yeah, its bites hard. No bruises this morning!

Fun fun fun!

[nanuk]

You have a thicket-huntin' marvel!!!!


I Know! :bigsmyl2:

[nanuk]

for my other 45/70, something that drops at .462 would seem to be the ticket, like the Mihec Hammer that 45 2.1 is running... around 350gr I think

[fcvan]

DrCaveman. congrats on your new acquisition. A buddy recently gave me some 45-70 rounds and empties for which I have no use. Check your PM for info. Frank

[Jaybird62]

The Trapdoor-level loads have served me well in my .45/70 Handi Rifle for the past 15 years. I've shot enough of the hotter loads to know that this isn't the gun I want to shoot them in routinely. All the whitetails I've killed with this little rig couldn't get any deader that what they were with the lower-powered loads. I'm not around my loading data right now, but I believe that the last loads I put together were with IMR 4198, and they shot well with 405 grain RCBS cast out of my Trapdoor and the Handi Rifle.

[wgr]

The Trapdoor-level loads have served me well in my .45/70 Handi Rifle for the past 15 years. I've shot enough of the hotter loads to know that this isn't the gun I want to shoot them in routinely. All the whitetails I've killed with this little rig couldn't get any deader that what they were with the lower-powered loads. I'm not around my loading data right now, but I believe that the last loads I put together were with IMR 4198, and they shot well with 405 grain RCBS cast out of my Trapdoor and the Handi Rifle.

i load 32grains of 4198 under a .405 grain bullet and it shoots great. not hard on the body . if that dont kill anything in north america your in trouble. :cbpour:

[DHurtig]

I own 2 Handi's. In the pic, the top one is a 357 which is one of the must have calibers. The bottom one is my 45-70 which now sports a 2.5 to 7 variable scope. I really love that laminated thumb hole stock.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e69/c_latrans/NEFsurvivor.jpg

Like Bubba said, you need to go to Greybeards and visit with the " Handiholics ".

The 45-70 will do anything you need with the mid level loads. It's best to save those " Hammer of Thor" loads for your buddies to shoot at the range.

I mostly shoot those same 405's, but they drop from my mold about 420. I also have their hollow point mold but I really don't think the hollow point is necessary. I would really like to get my hands on a mold that drops boolits around 300 gr.

Enjoy both of your new addictions, Dale

[DrCaveman]

Dhurtig

That is the same combo I bought. Waiting on darn mail order scope rings for the 357 since the mediums don't allow my scope to clear the hammer. Got a cheapo Simmons fixed 4x for that guy and I am planning to load some fairly stout rounds with Lyman 358430. Of course my 358429 loads will be fun too. Hope the scope holds up, we will see. Since I already have a lot of load development with 38/357 I am not really concerned in the least with it working or kicking too bad. I may get to try it Monday...

But the 45-70 was a whole new beast for me, and so far I am quite impressed and even more excited by the comments within this thread. On Monday, I WILL shoot some of my home cast rounds and see what it gets me. Also looks like I need to add IMR 4198 to my powder collection. I have heard that one should not store more than 10 pounds of powder inside the house. Whoops. Already way over that!

[DHurtig]

That 357 is the most used gun I own, I never go to the range with out that one and my single six. Cases last forever, it doesn't use much powder, I've got little to nothing in the lead so primers are my big expense. Almost as cheap to shoot as a 22. Recoil is nil. The versatility is off the chart. I've got molds that cast up to 204 grains. Want to work up some cat sneeze loads with one of the heavy weights. I've got an old Ideal 358 439 mold that casts a hollow point that will finish up just over 160 grains. That's the fun one for water jugs.

I've got so much work to do yet with the 45-70. I want to try some collar button bullets and want to try some round ball loads. Just got a Lee round ball mold, but haven't cast with it yet.

This will set you up with 2 of the most popular calibers for Handi rifles. Also for shooting cast bullets I have a 30-30 and a 22 k hornet in contender carbine barrels. Have bullets cast for both, but have not started load development yet.

Lordy, lordy, lordy, so much fun to be had and so little time. I fear I'm teetering on the brink of needing a 12 step program. Best wishes to you and your endeavors, Dale.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Caveman,

Hello from Ideeeeeho!

Yep, hard for a reloader that loads enough ammo and different calibers to make it worth while, to not way exceed the 10lb figure just from testing the possible powders.

This does not even factor in the fact that smart loaders, once they have found "the powder" for their gun, buys in larger quanities to maintain the consistancy of using ONE, Manufactures LOT NUMBER.

:bigsmyl2: Enjoy that 45/70 :bigsmyl2:

Crusty Deary Ol'coot

[Rockydog]

I've got a 45-70 Handi-rifle like yours. It sports an old Simmons 2-5 scope. My most accurate load is using the Lyman 457193 405 grain bullet. I'm using 49 grains of IMR 4895. My best target was 3 shots inside of a 1 1/2" bull at 100 yds. Consistently better than 3" for 3 shots. The recoil is heavy but not brutal. It drops deer like the hammer of Thor.
I've been as high as 53 grains when I was working up loads. Take my word for it, 53 grains is brutal. Two shots were enough to convince me that I should back down. More than a 3 1/2" 12 gauge load for sure.

Caution: Loads here are for MY rifle, using MY cast bullets. Your results may vary. Start low and work up. RD

[Jkallen83]

DrCaveMan.....

i also recently bought a H&R Handi Rifle in 45-70. its awesome. i dont like the hornady leverelutions tho. great bullets but they brass is shorter so i guess reloading anything other than the leverelutions is out.


i bought a lee 405gr mold which im using softer lead so im actually casting 420gr bullets... im loading these with 33gr of IMR4198.

this is working GREAT for me. i am getting sub 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with iron sights. sometimes they are in the same hole with each other.

the gun is just AWESOME. i LOVE the iron sights on this rifle. im an iron sight guy anyway but these iron sights are AWESOME.

hope ur having as much fun with ur handi rifle as i am.

[DrCaveman]

I finally got to shoot some of my home cast hand loads.

Tried two loads, both were planned to be "soft", maybe about the level of 1800's Buffalo hunting rounds.

Data:
Starline Brass
CCI Large Rifle Primer
Lee 457-405-F cast using WW-50/50 tin mix (approx 12-15 bhn)
Boolit un-sized, measured to .458" with my calipers
Lubed with Darr + some lanolin
1) Unique 12.5 gr
2) Trail Boss 13.0 gr
OAL 2.55"
Light Lee FCD crimp

Trail Boss load was very light, I couldnt hardly believe it was the same gun that I shot the factory bruisers from. This just got fun!

Unique load was a bit more snappy, but verrry manageable, I could surely shoot it all day long. Was about like my 20 gauge single shot H&R, maybe a bit less kick than that.

Trail boss shot above POA, surprisingly, since I am pretty sure the boolit was only going 1000 fps or so. Groups werent awesome, but with more work they could probably shape up.

Unique load was awesome when I really sat down and tried for a solid group. Im not the kind of shooter to hit MOA at 100 yds with irons. So I am quite happy with this group since it was my second outing ever with this gun, and the first with my home cast.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22699500f4b72640fe.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6036)
The shots labeled 1,2,3,4,5 were my last group, and only group worth mentioning. I think it is about 2", shot at 75 yds.

It should be noted that I tried just as hard with the Trail Boss and the "group" was pretty darn big, I must blame it on the load. No leading that I could find with either load, though the Trail Boss left a bunch of gunk down the bore. Unique left it clean as a whistle.

I forgot to check for lube stars.

Overall, this is my best shooting with iron sights & home cast yet in my 3 months or so of doing it. I was getting pretty happy with my 30-30 Unique load, but this is noticeably better. It sure does seem to me that Unique and cast rifle boolits get along quite well.

Yes, this rifle is darn fun! With these light loads and minimal lead expense (and recycling- but not of this boolit!) I think I am shooting for maybe $.25 a round or less. Unbelievable compared to the store. Long live casting & reloading.