I hope you guys don't hate me for this...

[dexterblack]

I am bracing for an onslaught of criticism from the BP purists. Let me preface this question by saying I LIKE black powder in my Whitney Kennedy .38-40. I shoot 30 gr. (volumetric) or 35 gr. (volumetric) loads under wheel weight Lyman 401043 "boolits", light to moderate compression, with no gc, and lubed with black powder gold. It works great, but....

If it's 105 degrees outside, or if it's winter, and I want to shoot at my indoor club, I am not allowed to use BP or standard BP subs. I can shoot TrailBoss (5.2 gr.), but it's pretty anemic -- 100 yards seems the absolute max (6" to 8" groups with a lyman apeture sight and post.) I'd like a bigger "boom", and I'd like to see if I could improve non-BP accuracy. And the old Whitney is a PITA to put back together after strip-cleaning, which I need to do after using BP. So, 3 questions...

Can anyone tell me if they have used BlackHorn 209 in .38-40 cartridges (or .44-40, for that matter). Does it matter if it is not charged to the point of compression? Also, does anyone know FOR SURE that the Blackhorn Cartridge-load chart is in grs./by weight? (Their muzzle-loading data are in volumetric measure.)

Thanks, in advance
__________________

[Don McDowell]

The folks that own this old Ballard rifle didn't want to shoot blackpowder either... a case of blackpowder is cheap just comparing the ambulance ride to the airport,,
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd385/CoyoteChris303/Quigley2012/q20a.jpg
Here's the link to blackhorn load data http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/b209blackpowdercartridgedata.pdf

The rest is up to you,, either get up in the morning and go shooting while it's cool,, or......

[montana_charlie]

For a guy so interested in BlackHorn 209, it seems like you would have read their FAQs. Here is one that relates to your question ...

5. Can I weigh my charges?
Yes. If you prefer to weigh charges, you can convert the volume load recommendations into weighed grains by multiplying the volume load by 0.7. Example: 100 units by volume x 0.7 = 70 grains by weight. 110 volume charge x 0.7 = 77 grains by weight.

Taking that information, I went to their cartridge-type load data.
I don't know Jack about 38-40, but I've heard that something less than 40 grains of black works in 45 Colt.

Looking at that line, it seems that about 23 grains of Black Horn 209 is a suitable load.

Your question is, "Is that volumetric or weighed?"

Take a 40 grain charge of black for a 45 Colt, and multiply it by 0.7.
The result is 28 weighed grains, and something less than 40 would probably fall near 23 grains.

Logic tells me that their 'cartridge' data is in weighed grains.

I took the time to research this information for you in order to be polite.
If this post doesn't answer all of your questions about non-black powders, the Single Shot section is a more appropriate venue ...

And I (politely) invite you to try it.

CM

[Red River Rick]

I've said this before and I'll say it again:

"If these BP substitutes are so great............why didn't they invent them first"?

If the firearm was designed for BP.............then you better use BP!

RRR

[dexterblack]

Thank you Charlie. I had already read that reference in the 209 site. I was bothered by the "..if you prefer to weigh chargtes, you can convert..." So, do I convert from the cartridge load page, or is it already converted? That's my quandry: 20.2 gr. by weight, or 14.14?. In other locations in their site they make reference to volumetric measure. They do not specifically state that the cartridge chart is by weight. (the column title, "charge-weight-grains", does indeed suggest they are "by-weight", but I wish to be certain..

I am a bit mortified, and will be sure to choose my forum catagory more carefully in the future.

Best Regards,

Dexter

[bob208]

the second post is why i say b-p in any rifle made before 1890. now there will some one that will say i use x poeder in y amount all the time with out problems. well it only takes one time.

[Don McDowell]

The volume thing for this stuff is only applicable to the muzzleloaders.
When you look at the cartridge data it specifically says charge weight in grains....
31$ for 10 oz of powder, seems a bit high when you can simply set your alarm an hour or so earlier...

[montana_charlie]

They do not specifically state that the cartridge chart is by weight. (the column title, "charge-weight-grains", does indeed suggest they are "by-weight", but I wish to be certain.
I think they are quite specific when using that column heading because their muzzle loading columns specifically say "Volumetric Units (volumetric powder measure) 80 100 120"

However, for absolute certainty, I suggest you contact the people who own the charts ...

CM

[semtav]

There is a guy here who shoots BH 209 in his 45-70 and has been kicking *** and taking names. Seriously thought about dragging my 45-70 out and trying to beat him at his own game. Then, decided to just stick with black. but if I was shooting where Black was restricted, I'd sure give it a try.

[Don McDowell]

semtav, that guy is a rifleman no matter what powder he shoots, and his wife is a spotter of the highest degree. He was winning matches a long time before blackhorn came out.

[Freightman]

semtav, that guy is a rifleman no matter what powder he shoots, and his wife is a spotter of the highest degree. He was winning matches a long time before blackhorn came out.
Powder will help maybe! being a rifleman is far more important. The man who wins most at our military match uses surplus bullets (pulled) and WC872 in several rifles as you can only win twice with the same rifle in a season. Another uses the most expensive bullets and powder and Hadley ever wins, and complains every time he doesn't even place which is often. Not the arrow it is the Indian Sitting Bull.

[John Boy]

There is a guy here who shoots BH 209 in his 45-70 and has been kicking *** and taking names.Gents, you may or not know ... Blackhorn209 is NITRO BASED POWDER! That's why zie kicks ***
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=6150.0

And the BP that Western Powder uses in BH209 is KIK FFg

[oldred]

Gents, you may or not know ... Blackhorn209 is NITRO BASED POWDER! That's why zie kicks ***
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=6150.0

And the BP that Western Powder uses in BH209 is KIK FFg



Yes it is and I personally think it should be considered a smokeless powder instead of a BP sub, but then I can't see a legitimate reason for using a BP sub in a cartridge rifle anyway. If a person wants a bulky smokeless that will fill a large case at fairly low pressures (and don't mind the high price!) then BH 209 may be just the powder but IMHO it has no place in real BP shooting, it looks different, loads different, smells different, makes higher pressures and just generally has little in common with real BP except it will go boom when the trigger is pulled, it even cleans like smokeless and requires solvents meant for smokeless. It is very similar to smokeless in that it is not corrosive and does not require cleaning between shots but again if smokeless attributes are desired then several smokeless powders could be chosen at lower cost but to consider BP 209 a type of BP or even a BP sub is quite a stretch!

[BPCR Bill]

And the old Whitney is a PITA to put back together after strip-cleaning, which I need to do after using BP.
Thanks, in advance
__________________[/QUOTE]

Dexter,

As you can see from some of the posts here, BP substitutes can be even more corrosive and damaging to firearms than good ol' organic BP, so don't get caught up in that little fantasy. Blackhorn is made with KIK, and a smokeless concoction that is nitro based. I spoke with Dan Phariss years ago when he was still working for Shiloh, and he told me he had examined a number of rifle barrels where the owners had let the guns sit for a few days without cleaning, and had noticed pitting had started already, and this with Pyrodex. Old original rifles are not made to withstand the pressures of smokeless, and you are flirting with disaster if you follow this path. And no we are not a bunch of purists, just students of the practical application of propellants!;-)

[oldred]

And the old Whitney is a PITA to put back together after strip-cleaning, which I need to do after using BP.
Thanks, in advance
__________________

Dexter,

As you can see from some of the posts here, BP substitutes can be even more corrosive and damaging to firearms than good ol' organic BP, so don't get caught up in that little fantasy. Blackhorn is made with KIK, and a smokeless concoction that is nitro based. [/QUOTE]



Yes they can a LOT more corrosive! Back many moons ago when Pyrodex first came out I started shooting the stuff in my Ruger Old Army C&B revolver and TC Hawkin muzzleloader because I was told it was ("not corrosive", yeah riiiiight!) and I learned quickly it requires even more attention to cleaning than real BP. I continued to use the stuff for a while until one day it occurred to me to ask myself why? BP works better, cleans easier, is less corrosive and easier to clean but most importantly it's the REAL THING! To be fair however BH 209 does not fall into this category and it's not like real BP or any of the subs, not even close. Except for a kind of light residue, which does not seem to get any heavier with consecutive shots, I can see almost no resemblance to BH and any of the subs and corrosion does not seem to be a factor at all or if it is it's not even close to any of the subs in this respect. I shot the stuff in an old CVA ML and left it uncleaned for weeks as a test of the claims and about the only thing that happened is the residue got a bit darker, the same thing with most subs would have destroyed that barrel. Again BH 209 is a smokeless, IMO, that happens to be bulky enough to shoot in MLs and it fills the case quite well when shot in cartridges but then so does some other smokeless powders (in cartridges not MLs!) so that's why I just can't see it being called a BP sub. It loads like a bulky smokeless, makes more pressure than real BP, cleans like smokeless using smokeless type solvents and generally has little in common with either real bp or any of the subs- if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then,, well you know.

[Hang Fire]

The folks that own this old Ballard rifle didn't want to shoot blackpowder either... a case of blackpowder is cheap just comparing the ambulance ride to the airport,,
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd385/CoyoteChris303/Quigley2012/q20a.jpg
Here's the link to blackhorn load data http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/b209blackpowdercartridgedata.pdf

The rest is up to you,, either get up in the morning and go shooting while it's cool,, or......

That Ballard receiver is a very weak cast iron one, the hollow section beneath threads definetly gives it away as being a cast iron receiver. Anyone who goes beyond shooting .22 rf in Ballard actions of that type are playing with disaster.

JM Marlin came out with forged Norway Iron (steel) Ballard receivers to handle high capacity cartridges, but continued to make cast iron receivers for weaker cartridges. The Norway iron receivers are solid forgings, which are machined and have no hollow section as seen in pic.

I have a JM Marlin Ballard # 5 Pacific in .45-70 with the Norway iron receiver, but I only shoot BP in it..

[bigted]

wasnt going to but think ill add my 1.5 cents.

cleanup...and stripping for cleanup...maybe im doing this all wrong with my rifles ... and the complication thing...ill compare my japchester hiwalls to anyones complicated re-assembly but then why would we compare as i have yet to dissasemble a single rifle for the cleanup. i have a couple years on these rifles and pistols and i dare anyone to find any rust or corosion on any part of my arms. the origanal bp cleans so easy and is stopped with such simple products that im embarassed in the cleanup dept. simple spray oil in the works following a regular cleanup will neutralize any fouling that would be found in the action of any rifle or revolver.

i had occasion to dissasemble my favorite japchester for other reassons and when i had all the pieces laid out on the bench i began to intently look for the least bit of corrosion or rust.......NOTHING!! wipe off clean and litly oil for re-assembly...over!!

my leveractions are the same thing. marlin levers are spotless inside and out and smell pleasantly of rem oil and tender loving care.

all the hogwash about having to dissasemble becouse of real bp residue in the innards is just that...hogwash.

srry all...couldnt help myself!!

[Hang Fire]

I will second that. When I shoot BP in cartridge (or C&B) revolvers, I remove the cylinder to scrub with water, clean bore and inside the frame with water, then blow dry, oil, and that is it.

For my Ballard, I remove the action, scrub bore and clean inside the receiver with water, wipe down surface of action with wet rag. The dry and oil all, done.

Many a BP firearm has been destroyed by constantly disassembling for cleaning.

[cal50]

Why do people buy BP powered firearms and then try to shoot smokeless or a substitute?

[montana_charlie]

Why do people buy BP powered firearms and then try to shoot smokeless or a substitute?
The o/p likes to shoot at an indoor range where they won't let him use BP or BP subs.
They will let him use Trail Boss, but he is unimpressed with it's hundred yard groups.
(I might be impressed by an indoor range where 100 yard groups can be fired ...)

So, he wants to know more about BlackHorn 209. Since it's a BP sub, I don't know what makes him think they will allow it in the range, and since it contains KIK black powder, I imagine they will complain even more.

But, now you know why this BP sub/smokeless thread is running.

CM

[EDG]

I've said this before and I'll say it again:

"If these BP substitutes are so great............why didn't they invent them first"?

If the firearm was designed for BP.............then you better use BP!

RRR

Does that hold true for all things invented first?

Like clubs, throwing rocks, and archery?
How about just hazing buffalo off a cliff?

[oldred]

since it contains KIK black powder, CM




I can't dispute that it does contain KIK black powder, and indeed do not doubt that it does, because I had no idea what's in it but I sure can't see anything about the stuff that even hints of real BP. Having used several cans of the stuff I like it quite well for smokeless shooting and it's a MUCH better choice than Trail Boss in big cases but in IMHO it's just that, a bulky smokeless, so it just don't fit in with BP shooting. In the case of an indoor range situation as was mentioned or any other situation where smokeless might be chosen then BH is a good choice IF it's chosen as a smokeless loading and not an attempt to pass off as BP.

[Hang Fire]

The folks that own this old Ballard rifle didn't want to shoot blackpowder either... a case of blackpowder is cheap just comparing the ambulance ride to the airport,,


Is that Ballard the one a woman lost three fingers from when it blew up? IIRC, remember reading something about a cast Ballard receiver where the barrel had been relined to .45-65 (or some such) and she was shooting smokeless in it.

[cal50]

The o/p likes to shoot at an indoor range where they won't let him use BP or BP subs.
They will let him use Trail Boss, but he is unimpressed with it's hundred yard groups.
(I might be impressed by an indoor range where 100 yard groups can be fired ...)

So, he wants to know more about BlackHorn 209. Since it's a BP sub, I don't know what makes him think they will allow it in the range, and since it contains KIK black powder, I imagine they will complain even more.

But, now you know why this BP sub/smokeless thread is running.

CM




I would shoot something else indoors if that's the case. Short of smokeless I dont see any indoor range warming up to a BP substitute. Once they see the mushroom cloud coming out of the gun they likely will not care and shut you down.

[Hang Fire]

It is understandable about banning the use of BP on indoor ranges.

Decades ago I used to hang around the old Chicago Gun Center shop in Chicago, ILL. I talked them into letting me shoot an original .36 caplock ML rifle I had just bought couple times on indoor range. (with the exhaust system on high) They still caught hell from shooters for days about the smell.

[cal50]

It is understandable about banning the use of BP on indoor ranges.

Decades ago I used to hang around the old Chicago Gun Center shop in Chicago, ILL. I talked them into letting me shoot an original .36 caplock ML rifle I had just bought couple times on indoor range. (with the exhaust system on high) They still caught hell from shooters for days about the smell.



I had a TC Patriot .45 target pistol I fired at a local indoor range. It was a 50/50 like / dislike from other shooters. BP really does need the great outdoors.

Fire a pair of cap & ball revolvers indoors and the swat team will think your popping smoke for cover.....