lee 10z slugs

[turmech]

I loaded and shot some of my first lee 1 oz slugs. Use the data that came whit the mold, Remington hulls, 48 gr blue dot (max in data 49 gr), Claybusters version of WAA12 wads.

The data did not provide a good crimp (crimps not closing all the way). Looking for advise. Did I do something wrong? Should I reduce the charge? change wads?

I have on hand:
Winchester, Remington, blue peters, and a few federal gold metal hulls. Claybuster WAA12, WAA12R, WAA12F114, FED 12S3, 12S4 wads. Blue dot and unique powder. Win 209 and fiocchi 616 primers

Any one have a load they like using any of the combinations of components I have?

Thanks

[35remington]

What does the crimp look like? Is it puckered out? Does it leave the nose of the slug exposed in the middle? What?

As long as a good bevel is applied to the lip of the shell, and the crimp folds are tucked in all the way, the slug can be visible and good loads will still be obtained. Having the slug visible makes it easy to identify, a bit of a bonus.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Turmech, you need a drill press for $40 to 50, from Harbour freight, a roll crimper for $ 30 and then you can start roll crimping like this
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/RSS12355grbullet.jpg
This is my roll crimping set-up!
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/DSC02720.jpg
this is how the roll crimp should look
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/DSC02719.jpg
Hoping it helps!
Ajay
Video Memories
VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[35remington]

Make sure the wad petals are not getting partially folded up in the crimp as well. I have to clip mine off to prevent this from happening when using the WAA12 wad. Clip somewhat below the nose of the slug.

I find Claybuster wads to hold up poorly under firing forces compared to the correct WAA12 wad. They are often mangled, and mangled wads make the load shoot poorly. Slugs are much harder on wads than shot.

[Moonie]

Keep in mind that the Claybuster wads are a direct replacement for the winchester in SHOT loads, they are NOT identical on the inside and the slugs do not fit the same. I do not have problems with this exact same load using the WW wads.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Keep in mind that the Claybuster wads are a direct replacement for the winchester in SHOT loads, they are NOT identical on the inside and the slugs do not fit the same. I do not have problems with this exact same load using the WW wads.

What moonie said is most likely the problem. I've contacted claybuster about using some of their wads with slugs and they told me they wouldn't work for slugs, but i have not asked about the AA wad replacement.

Also if you are using a load all for that load it just can't do it. That load needs to be run through my mec to crimp it and that's using genuine AA12's.

[UNIQUEDOT]

The gold medal hull is the best hull you have for that load as far as capacity and as i recall there is a 49.0 grain listed load for blue dot with it as well. I would like to add that after you shoot those loads you will most likely choose a different load anyway. It's rough on the shoulder.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello UniqueDot, you forgot to mention, after using 49 gr Blue Dot, you suddenly find yourself awake and no more sleepy!
Now you're ready to face the wife, and no longer have to hide under the bed, you are a man now, act like one, start wearing the pants now!
I do not know whats wrong with me.
Hoping it helps!
Ajay
Video Memories
VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[35remington]

The comments about the Blue Dot load are very pertinent. It has a muzzle flash you can see in the daytime, and in my lightweight 18.5 inch Mossberg 6 shot it definitely gets your attention. After watching me shoot it, most onlookers decline to try it themselves.

It's no white mouse, that's for certain.

[turmech]

Can you still get the WAA12 made by Winchester? I have not been able to find them, and thought they were discontinued.

They did group well at 25 yards. Shot about 8 rounds most surprisingly I had most of the shots breaking other holes. This was with a smooth bore 870 with bead sight. Recoil did not bother me much in fact I followed the 8 slugs with 10 buckshot loads using Blue dot.

But then again I shoot 250 to 500 rounds of 12 gauge 3 ½ loads during duck/goose season.

Shells on the left were with WAA12 (they have opened up more since loaded them a few days ago), right with WAA12F114

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Turmech, thanks for posting the pictures, because that helps us, if you were to check my powder hull space chart:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/FinalPowderHullSpaceData-1.jpg
as you can see Blue Dot takes up more hull space than most other faster powders.
You need to either use longer hulls for your loads on the left in the picture or use
your Win.WAA 12F114 wad.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeKeyWadcombo.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeKeyinFed12S4and12S3wad.jpg
Use wads with shorter cushioning for better crimp index and cut out excess wad petal length as in the picture!
Hoping it helps!
Ajay
Video Memories
VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[turmech]

VideoMemories, no need to thank me for the pics. I should be thanking you all for the help.
Thank you.

Now my question is should I reduce the charge to try to make the WAA12's work? Or load the WAA12F114's with the WAA12 data? My issue is the data states to reduce the charge 10% for any component changes. The WAA12F114's already produce a crimp which sinks in and leaves a hole. They are not bad but if I reduce the charge by 5 grains (10%) I don't think the combination will work.

[35remington]

Set the WAA12 and WAA12F114's side by side. The difference should be that the first wad sets the slug up higher, the second lower. If the first is too high and the second too low, figure out why the WAA12 is too high, or the crimp not closing.

Did you trim the wad petals as mentioned? Are they folded up with the crimp and preventing closure? If the yellow 114 wad is indeed allowing dished in crimps, the white 12 wad should be perfect.

Explain the actual differences between wads and this will answer your question. I vote to leave the charge the same.

As mentioned, I trim my wad petals using this charge of Blue Dot.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Turmech, its a known fact, if your crimp index is too long for the hull and you try to crimp it with a loader, it will bulge the hull,
and if the crimp index is a bit short it will give you a crimp that will be caving in a bit, like in your picture on the right using WAA12F114.
now if you were to fire them they will function right.

If it was me then I'll add a .125 nitro card of 16 or 20 gauge in the wad below the slug to raise the slug to make my crimp index perfect, while at the same time giving the slug a very firm base at launch.
By adding a hard nitro card under the slug, it increases overall load efficiency and thus you can easily reduce the powder charge by a grain or two!

Now take my fiendly advise, drop the load to 45 grains of Blue Dot and you should be set to face a bear or deer at around 1550+ fps with this load, most loads are more accurate when down loaded 2 to 3 grains under Max!
Hoping it helps!
Ajay
Video Memories
VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[turmech]

35 rem, I did cut the wad petals down to length for the slug.

Video memories, would the nitro cards under the slug effect the slugs accuracy in a riffled barrel? I shot my test loads with a smooth bore but I also shoot a lot of slugs in a riffled barrel. It may not be possible, but ideally I would find a load which preformed in both smooth and riffled barrels. If the accuracy would be effected I would rather load for accuracy in the riffled barrel.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Turmech, the rifled barrel will give you longer range accuracy compared to smooth bore.
Go ahead put the nitro card and raise hell first at the range and then in the woods!
Don't forget the Lee is still a Bumble Bee, just about as wide as it is long.
Look for my post to modefy the mold to make it just as accurate at longer range by cutting the hollow base pin for a 1/8" longer slug!
Hoping it helps!
Ajay
Video Memories
VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[turmech]

As a few suggested the Claybuster version of the WAA12 wad seems to have been the culprit in the crimp issues I was having. I purchased some original Winchester WAA12 wads and they allowed the slug to seat better. The Claybuster version has slightly thicker plastic in the shot cup and reduces the inside diameter of the shot cup not allowing the slug to seat in the hull reliably.

The pic shows claybuster on the left Winchester on the right.

Thanks to everyone’s help.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Turmech, your fold crimps look very nice, stick with the original wads!
I found yet another wad very good for Lee Drive Key, are you ready for it.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Commanderwadcopy.jpg
I do not like to put a slug in wad without a nitro card:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/1220GaCommodorecopy.jpg
The wad is a perfect fit for a rifled barrel as well as smooth bore with the round ball of .678" or Lee Drive Key, the OD measures about .729 to .730, but when I put a Lyman 525 slug in wad the OD becomes too tight!
If you do plan to try them, then simply use 6 point fold crimp and do not forget the 16 gauge nitro card below the RB or Lee Drive Key slug!
Hoping it helps!
Ajay
VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
www.BlazingSabots.com

[Vander Donckt]

I would like to use RIO hulls (straight wall) and RIO standard wads.
The slug with the wad has a total diameter of 18.8 mm (0.740 ").
Can someone tell me what the maximum overall diameter must be?
Have not tried this yet.
My rifle is a Mossberg 500 cylindrical smooth barrel (0.728 ").

Wads in Europe are hard to get and very expensive.
Therefore, the question of whether the 0.740 "diameter is permissible.

[OnHoPr]

Turmech, back a while ago I was doing testing on various slug, buckshot, and turkey loads. Trying MANY loads for all three categories. One of the situations of the crimping stage that I found out about in the different loads, though very similar, required adjustment at the crimping stage, both at the depth and at the cam adjustment. I not sure what press or reloader you have, but this could be one of your problems of crimping. I use an ole 700 Vesa Mec. I hope this helps.:smile:

[TonyfromItaly]

I would like to use RIO hulls (straight wall) and RIO standard wads.
The slug with the wad has a total diameter of 18.8 mm (0.740 ").
Can someone tell me what the maximum overall diameter must be?
Have not tried this yet.
My rifle is a Mossberg 500 cylindrical smooth barrel (0.728 ").

Wads in Europe are hard to get and very expensive.
Therefore, the question of whether the 0.740 "diameter is permissible.

Try this italian site, they ship all over europe. Baschieri Z2M and Nobel Sport GT wads are a perfect fit for both lee and lyman

www.siarm.com

[Vander Donckt]

TonyfromItaly,

Thanks for the reply.
Do you use them yourself?
What is de total OD whit the Lee 1oz inside the wad?
Maybe a picture?

The originel Rio Bossi wad has OD of 18,5mm and the inside diameter of the Rio hull is 19mm
I see that the Z2M has a OD of only17mm (is this not to small) .
siarm sent me a mail, my question and their answer and :

Dear Siarm,

I am looking for a wad that would be suitable for reloading the 17, 4 mm Lee slug of 28 grams of pure lead.
The wad inside must be smooth without ribs and have a diameter of 18.5 mm together with the slug inside to pas in the cil barrel.

Do you have a suitable 12 GA wad for this purpose and what are the dimensions of it?
Answer:

If it is 17,4 mm You can not use a wad with container so You should use Bior model,
for example:

Bior pallettoni H20

Best Regards

[TonyfromItaly]

Hello Vander,

yes, i use the myself and the Lee 1 oz slug, or the Lyman fit perfect in them. The Z2M has different heights(15, 18, 22, 24 mm), so according to the volume of the powder and the type of closure (roll crimp or fold crimp) you can choose the one that best fits your needs.

i have no pictures to show you at the moment, but the Baschieri Z2M is sold in America under the name commander and you see lots of its pictures on this site.

Siam probably did not understand what you were trying to say. Anyway, a box of 100 wads costs a bit less then 2 euro, so it is not a big expense to try.

i do not know if Baschieri e Pellagri powders are available in belgium, but with 2.00 grams of MBx36 you get about 460 meters/second with a pressure of about 700 bars.
http://www.siarm.com/index.php?cPath=2_24_31_34&osCsid=09e99af8e42796faae354afa0a6672e7


check out the wads...

The lee 1 oz that i make, comes out 17.2 mm and the weight goes from 27,8 to 28.2 grams. I use old lead plumbing pipes.

best regards

[TonyfromItaly]

Vander, here is a picture, but with the lyman, (same size as the lee as far as wad is concerned)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_249045068691f7f54b.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6869)

[Vander Donckt]

Tony,

Thanks for the great info.

I am planning to use new Rio 28 gr trap hulls, cutting the fold crimp and than change the wad and roll crimp the finished hull.
I to not now what powder Rio uses but i will reduce the load by 10% for the first try out.

To you use a over powder card because of the smaller diameter of the Z2M to stop the powder passing along the wad?

[TonyfromItaly]

Vander,

Z2M fit perfectly in Fiocchi, Nobel Sport and Cheddite hulls. No powder overflow for sure.

As far as powder charge goes, the rule of thumb here is: (for 28 to 32 gram slug) take the powder charge for a 32gram bird shot shell, and increase it by 15%.

In belgium you can probably find vectan's powders. The A1 is a good choice, i think.

a 28 gr slugs makes less resistence in its travel throught the bore compared to a 32 gr bird shot one, that is the reason you need to increase the amount of powder.

I shoot the Lee 1 oz in Z2M wad even with a improved modified barrel... no problems at all. (here we call it *** choke).

Make sure the roll crimp is tight, otherwise the bottom of the wad will not be pressing the powder and the load will not work well at all.

[Vander Donckt]

Tony,
Received delivery of SIARM today (1000 Z2M wads and some Nobel g tand pal 4 roll crimp).
The lee slug fits well in the Z2M wad.
The wad with slug needs some pressure to be pushed in the hull.
However, measuring the OD of the Z2M with the slug also gives 18,7 mm.
It is really only a narrow point measured at the Teardrop shape measurement by the thicker slug on the base 18,5mm.
My lee slug cast 17,3- 17,4 mm at the teardrop thickest point.
May i ask you what your OD off the Z2M wad with the slug is?
Wil post some pic later.

[TonyfromItaly]

hello vander, i have not measured it yet. But i tell you that my special made beretta barrel starts at 18.2 mm and i shoot them without problems even with tight chokes.

[35remington]

The problem with shooting the Lee slug through tight chokes is that the wad is pinched between slug and barrel and may be cut by the pinching. Measure the OD of the wad and slug to determine how much clearance you've got. Most barrels with any appreciable choke will be smaller than the wad/slug combination.

Whether this is a harm to accuracy is something only you can determine, but if you have a choice of chokes or choke tubes to use, the best idea is no choke at all, or cylinder choke. If you don't have any cylinder choke tubes, the next "loosest" constriction is the one to use. This would be skeet or improved cylinder.

There's really no good reason to use a tighter choke tube. If you have a tighter one in, take it out for something less constricting.

[TonyfromItaly]

i agree with you 35 remington. For accuracy it is prefferred cylinder of improved cylinder bore. In fact if you try pushing throught the barrel with a rod, the wad with Lee slug inside, it will push easy with cylinder choke, some resistence with improved cylinder, more difficult with modified.

However, in italy there are some hunting situations, where, as you are bird hunting, you find a wild hog, and obviously, you change shells and shoot with whichever chokes you have at the time.

:smile:

[TonyfromItaly]

ok, now i got all the measures, and i can write some numbers.

first of all, as a guest in this forum i would like to apologyze to the american members for writing the posts in millimeters, i must sound foreign to all of you.


now Vander, the sizes of my Lee 1 oz

17.10 mm .670 base
17.42 mm .685 shoulder

inside the commander it measures 18.80 mm .740 in


so i have fired many of these, and you can be safe firing it.

in a pressure barrel test, using S4 powder (double base) 1.75 grams, on a GT wad... i made 430 ms 1420 ft/s and 610 bars of pressure

[TonyfromItaly]

here is a picture. you may take some slices off the petals (i exagerated here to make the point) so that the milking process of the slug is dimished as the wad-slug approaches the choke.

[Vander Donckt]

Hey,

Does anyone know where I can find 16 gauge nitro cards in Europe?
At siarms they are not available,they use feld wads.

The bior thickness wads from siarm under the lee slug split in two and some wad pellets are torn off after firing.
What would be the best euro powder for the 1oz lee slug?

[TonyfromItaly]

Vander, if you look at siarm site, under "dischi", they have 16 ga paper cards.

i do not know what powders are available in Belgium. here in Italy we use Nobel Sport "sipe" a double based powder, or Baschieri & Pellagri MBx36, or MBx32. If you find Vectan "A1" or Cheddite "Drago", "Aquila" i can give you doses.